Soul sleep

[Prodigal_Son1]

Why did Jesus tell the thief in Luke 23:43 that they’re going to Heaven that day, and then three days later tell Mary He hasn’t gone yet? Some say this proves the Bible contradicts itself. However, the fact of the matter is, many years after the King James Bible was written, punctuation was added to it. The coma in Luke 23:43 is actually mis-placed. It should be placed after the word “today.” If it is left before the word “today,” it appears Jesus is being dishonest either to Mary or the thief on the cross. However, if it is placed correctly after the word “today”, He is now telling them both His truth and no contradiction is assumed. Now read Luke 23:43 with the coma in the correct place…

“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” [Luke 23:43]

See the difference?

You seemed to have missed the points I made in a previous post. I am reposting it below, for your convenience. Please feel free to check the punctuation…

As for the Old Testament references, if they were ‘asleep’, why did Christ preach the Gospel to the dead?

**1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1Pe 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

1Pe 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit**.

Are those in the following story, also proclaimed by Jesus, ‘asleep’?

**Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and feasted sumptuously every day.
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. And no one did give him: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
Luk 16:23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom:
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you cannot, nor from thence come hither.
Luk 16:27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren,
Luk 16:28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.
Luk 16:29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
Luk 16:31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead. **

BTW, you also missed a direction question addressed to you. Are you ‘10 Kings’?

 

[Truth_Exposed]

No I’m not 10 kings, and which bible is this from( my curiosity has nothing to do with those verses).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

No I’m not 10 kings, and which bible is this from( my curiosity has nothing to do with those verses).

Now, you seem to be playing games. Did you, or did you not say, ‘you were with 10 Kings on this?’ It kind of takes away from one being able to hope for an honest discussion.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

my curiosity has nothing to do with those verses.

So, if a passage in the Bible speaks against a belief, you’re just not curious?

Those passages clearly speak against the teaching of ‘soul sleep’, and leave no one any hope of pointing out ‘incorrect punctuation’.

 

[BrianH]

The thing I quoted is moot because the Bible was around for 1300 years before the KJV. The KJV came out 200 years after the Douay-Rheims in the English speaking countries. If one is going to go with an English translation, at least use the FIRST English translation (though, please, look into how the Bible was written and translated the first 500 years of Christianity…)

The KJV came out about twenty or thirty years, not two hundred years, after the Douay-Rheims. What is your understanding of what the FIRST English translation is?

 

[Truth_Exposed]

You seemed to have missed the points I made in a previous post. I am reposting it below, for your convenience. Please feel free to check the punctuation…

As for the Old Testament references, if they were ‘asleep’, why did Christ preach the Gospel to the dead?

**1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1Pe 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

1Pe 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit**.

Are those in the following story, also proclaimed by Jesus, ‘asleep’?

**Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and feasted sumptuously every day.
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. And no one did give him: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
Luk 16:23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom:
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you cannot, nor from thence come hither.
Luk 16:27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren,
Luk 16:28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.
Luk 16:29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
Luk 16:31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead. **

BTW, you also missed a direction question addressed to you. Are you ‘10 Kings’?

1 Peter 4:6 is saying the dead mentioned were dead at the time of Peter’s writing, but were not dead when the gospel was preached to them. The plain meaning is that the gospel was preached to people when living, who are now dead. Does that make sense?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

1 Peter 4:6 is saying the dead mentioned were dead at the time of Peter’s writing, but were not dead when the gospel was preached to them. The plain meaning is that the gospel was preached to people when living, who are now dead. Does that make sense?

No, that’s not what is being said. Jesus preached to those in the ‘spirit prison’. The gospel was preached to those, ‘Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.’ Those had been dead for some time prior to the Gospel being preached.

**1Pe 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit. **

The Gospel was ALSO preached to the dead, not preached to those who had passed away since…

And you avoided the discussion on the poor man and rich man…

 

[adstrinity]

The KJV came out about twenty or thirty years, not two hundred years, after the Douay-Rheims. What is your understanding of what the FIRST English translation is?

Well, according to Wikipedia, I was wrong because the FIRST English translation was in the 6 or 700s, but, that’s Old English, and, well, would be helpful to understand translations and the middle-early Church, that’s not the issue here.

And, yes, you’re right. I don’t know what I was thinking. I just looked up something to check what I was thinking, and that didn’t confirm my initial idea either…

 

[Truth_Exposed]

No, that’s not what is being said. Jesus preached to those in the ‘spirit prison’. The gospel was preached to those, ‘Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.’ Those had been dead for some time prior to the Gospel being preached.

1Pe 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

The Gospel was ALSO preached to the dead, not preached to those who had passed away since…

And you avoided the discussion on the poor man and rich man…

I havent got to everything yet, would you please settle down?

 

[Nicea325]

**Isn’t this belief found mostly in the Seventh Day Adventist groups? **

Jehovah Witnesses as well. (Edited)

 

[Truth_Exposed]

Now, you seem to be playing games. Did you, or did you not say, ‘you were with 10 Kings on this?’ It kind of takes away from one being able to hope for an honest discussion.

I am with the 10 kings guy on what he said, but i am not actually him, (I already answered you on this matter???) I dont why that’s so complicated.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am with the 10 kings guy on what he said, but i am not actually him, (I already answered you on this matter???) I dont why that’s so complicated.

It’s not that complicated. You said, ‘No I’m not 10 kings, and which bible is this from’ in reponse to me asking if you were him. If you was referring to the Bible I provided scriptures from, it should have been qualified. I have 10 versions on my computer and am willing to use any of those you wish. If you’re a Jehovah Witness, I don’t use their Bible due to the inaccuracies I believe exist. Which brings up another question. Which Church are you affliated with? There are thousands of denominations and we’re familiar with some of the doctrines from Church to Church. It would certainly help us understand where you’re coming from.

 

[twopekinguys]

BTW, you also missed a direction question addressed to you. Are you ‘10 Kings’?

If this poster isn’t 10 Kings, it is another one that got banned, and the thread removed. That poster tried using the whole “comma was placed in the wrong spot” argument. (sorry, can’t remember the name).

The argument didn’t fly then, and it doesn’t fly now.

If I remember my history correctly, it is an 18th, or 19th century invention.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

As for the Old Testament references, if they were ‘asleep’, why did Christ preach the Gospel to the dead?

**1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1Pe 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

1Pe 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit.**

Why do you call them dead. Peter calls them “spirits that were in prison:” The word for “spirits” here is pneumata plural of pneuma “wind”, “breath”, “spirit” Breath is one of the characteristics of a living being. By a figure of speech (synecdoche), in which a characteristic part of a thing stands for the whole pneuma simply means “person”. Compare 1Cor.16:18where “my spirit means “me” and Gal.6:18; 2Tim. 4:22 were “your spirit” means 'you”. So, Peter is here talking to the “spirits” (people) that were in prison to sin before the flood.

Are those in the following story, also proclaimed by Jesus, ‘asleep’?

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and feasted sumptuously every day.
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. And no one did give him: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
Luk 16:23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom:
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you cannot, nor from thence come hither.
Luk 16:27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren,
Luk 16:28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.
Luk 16:29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
Luk 16:31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

No, this story is quite clearly a parable. When Jesus told this parable He had just raised Lasarus from the grave. The sanhedrin and the pharasees represented by the rich man were the ones that had access to the sumptuous food of God, the bible. These were the ones that were considered blessed by God at least by themselves. Jesus comes and turns the tables on them and says that these are the ones going to perdition and the poor and wretched that Jesus was always preaching to would be in the heavenly kingdom. The kicker is brought home in vs. 30 &31 After the rich man asks father Abraham to send someone to his father’s house to talk to his brothers about the torment that awaits. Abraham says If they don’t believe the bible they won’t believe if one rise from the dead. We know that these words were prophetic because they tried to kill not only Lasarus, but the one who raised him from the dead. This story is a parable and in no way is to be taken literally

And Richard, do you think that Jesus spoke ‘literally’ in John 11? It begs the question, why is this ‘literal’ and John 6 ‘symbolic’?

Are you saying that Lazarus wasn’t really dead. That would be callig Jesus a liar wouldn’t it?

Jn11:14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Why do you call them dead. Peter calls them “spirits that were in prison:” The word for “spirits” here is pneumata plural of pneuma “wind”, “breath”, “spirit” Breath is one of the characteristics of a living being. By a figure of speech (synecdoche), in which a characteristic part of a thing stands for the whole pneuma simply means “person”. Compare 1Cor.16:18where “my spirit means “me” and Gal.6:18; 2Tim. 4:22 were “your spirit” means 'you”. So, Peter is here talking to the “spirits” (people) that were in prison to sin before the flood.

Earthly, in the flesh, dead and identified as those in the days of Noe. Now how long before Christ was the days of Noe? Those people had died and were not in a state of ‘soul sleep’. Also, note it was not Peter who was ‘talking’ to the spirits.

**1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1Pe 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. **

Christ died a fleshly death and became enlivened in the spirit. In which coming, HE(Christ) preached to those spirits in prison, which had been some time, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, where only a few, eight, were saved…

It’s a lot easier to read when you’re not trying to fit it to a certain theology, which requires many creative descriptions of what ‘spirit’ means.

No, this story is quite clearly a parable. When Jesus told this parable He had just raised Lasarus from the grave. The sanhedrin and the pharasees represented by the rich man were the ones that had access to the sumptuous food of God, the bible. These were the ones that were considered blessed by God at least by themselves. Jesus comes and turns the tables on them and says that these are the ones going to perdition and the poor and wretched that Jesus was always preaching to would be in the heavenly kingdom. The kicker is brought home in vs. 30 &31 After the rich man asks father Abraham to send someone to his father’s house to talk to his brothers about the torment that awaits. Abraham says If they don’t believe the bible they won’t believe if one rise from the dead. We know that these words were prophetic because they tried to kill not only Lasarus, but the one who raised him from the dead. This story is a parable and in no way is to be taken literally

I cannot agree with your interpretation, that this was/is a parable. There’s something missing, for this to be a parable, an explanation. Christ explained His parables, when He used them. Also, there were no ‘parables’ where specific named people were used. This story is quite clearly NOT a parable. But, let’s assume it was a parable. Why would Christ teach that those who died, long before His death and resurrection, were taken into the bosom of Abraham and were able to ask that the other dip his finger in water and touch it to his tongue? That Abraham, long since in the fleshly death, able to communicate to the rich man? Let’s also recognize that Abraham said they could hear Moses and the prophets, who also had long ago died before Christ’s death and resurrection. In fact, one cannot be sure this is the same Lazarus. Luke never mentioned the Lazarus that was raised from the dead. It was John that wrote about the raised Lazarus, but John never wrote about this parable.

Are you saying that Lazarus wasn’t really dead. That would be callig Jesus a liar wouldn’t it?

Jn11:14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

I had mistaken my verses when I ASKED you if the story of Lazarus was literal or symbolic. As explained above, this story of Lazarus was only told by Luke. The raised Lazarus was only told in John.

It takes away from the honesty of a discussion to capitalize on a mistake, especially when I ASKED you if you thought the story was literal or not. I had no way conveyed that I thought it was symbolic, or that I didn’t believe it. And, there is no way I would ever call Jesus a liar. That is using an ad hominem which also takes away from the integrity of a discussion.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If this poster isn’t 10 Kings, it is another one that got banned, and the thread removed. That poster tried using the whole “comma was placed in the wrong spot” argument. (sorry, can’t remember the name).

The argument didn’t fly then, and it doesn’t fly now.

If I remember my history correctly, it is an 18th, or 19th century invention.

npatrol: The Truth was Exposed. npatrol:

 

[Milliardo]

And Jesus proclaims it.

Jn.11: 11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus does not proclaim it; if one would continue through the chapter, one would read thus:

Jesus told her, "I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live,

and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" (John 11:25-26)

That is very far from soul sleep.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Earthly, in the flesh, dead and identified as those in the days of Noe. Now how long before Christ was the days of Noe? Those people had died and were not in a state of ‘soul sleep’.

Are you saying that Christ was created at His earthly birth?

Also, note it was not Peter who was ‘talking’ to the spirits.

My mistake Christ through Noah.

1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1Pe 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

Christ died a fleshly death and became enlivened in the spirit. In which coming, HE(Christ) preached to those spirits in prison, which had been some time, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, where only a few, eight, were saved…

Ya this is saying that Christ preached the Gospel message to the people in Noahs day and He did this by the movement of the Spirit in Noah. Gen.6:3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Noah preached the gospel to the antedeluvians for 120 years all the wwhile he was building the ark. But alas only 8 entered in.

It’s a lot easier to read when you’re not trying to fit it to a certain theology, which requires many creative descriptions of what ‘spirit’ means.

Being wrong is always easier that seeking the truth.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I cannot agree with your interpretation, that this was/is a parable. There’s something missing, for this to be a parable, an explanation. Christ explained His parables, when He used them.

Jesus did not explain many, in fact most of His parables. The only ones that come to mind that He did explain were the wheat and tares and the sower of the seed.(there may be more) The rest He left for people to figure out. I think that is why He used parables. Because He didn’t have to explain them. They were apparent from the story.

Also, there were no ‘parables’ where specific named people were used. This story is quite clearly NOT a parable. But, let’s assume it was a parable. Why would Christ teach that those who died, long before His death and resurrection, were taken into the bosom of Abraham and were able to ask that the other dip his finger in water and touch it to his tongue? That Abraham, long since in the fleshly death, able to communicate to the rich man? Let’s also recognize that Abraham said they could hear Moses and the prophets, who also had long ago died before Christ’s death and resurrection. In fact, one cannot be sure this is the same Lazarus. Luke never mentioned the Lazarus that was raised from the dead. It was John that wrote about the raised Lazarus, but John never wrote about this parable.

Ok, let’s take these one point at a time. Jesus used specific named people here for very specific reasons. You will notice that the rich man is not named. He is just the rich man. But you will notice in v. 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: that he was clothed in purple and fine linen and that he faired sumtuously. The purple and fine linen is an allusion to royalty and the sumptuos fair to the word of God (more on this later) So, we can conclude from this first v. in the paable that the rich man was from the religious upper crust as it were probably of the Sanhedrin and probably a Pharasee. Now the rich, the upper crust of the Jews were considered blessed by God. After all that’s why their rich right? Now Abraham is considered the father of the Jews
Jn.8:13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
These vs. show that the Pharasees considered Abraham as there father and the bosom of Abraham was the place in heaven supposedly reserved for all the good little pharasees. After all they were God’s chosen people right? Well, Jesus enters the picture and shows them that the reason they were chosen was to proclaim His gospel to the Lasaruses of the world, to distribute the sumptuous fair as it were. Well, they failed miserably and as a result the poor man Lasarus would be taking their place in heaven. If this were to be taken literally do you really thik that all the dead souls would go into Abrahams bosom? Doesn’t sound very comfortable for the millions living there or for Abraham. Also, do you really think a drop of water on ones finger would slake the thirst of one supposedly in eternal flames? As for v.31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. This is a reference to the law and the prophets or the bible that Jesus used. I think that I have covered your concerns. Let’s see were this goes?

It takes away from the honesty of a discussion to capitalize on a mistake, especially when I ASKED you if you thought the story was literal or not. I had no way conveyed that I thought it was symbolic, or that I didn’t believe it. And, there is no way I would ever call Jesus a liar. That is using an ad hominem which also takes away from the integrity of a discussion.

I didn’t capitalize on a mistake. I didn’t know it was a mistake. I thought you were talking of the story in Jn.11

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Are you saying that Christ was created at His earthly birth?

No Christ was not created. Christ is God incarnate, the only begotten Son of God; begotten, not made.

My mistake Christ through Noah.

Your mistake again. It clearly addresses Christ dieing and becoming enlivened in spirit. Just as clearly it states He preached the Gospel to those who had waited for the patience of God, in the days of Noe, when only 8 souls were saved by water. It says nothing to indicate Christ taught the Gospels through Noe.

Ya this is saying that Christ preached the Gospel message to the people in Noahs day and He did this by the movement of the Spirit in Noah. Gen.6:3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. Noah preached the gospel to the antedeluvians for 120 years all the wwhile he was building the ark. But alas only 8 entered in.

Nice try, but that ‘boat won’t float’.

The New Testament reference clearly states, ‘those who had waited for the patience of God, in the days of Noe, when only 8 souls were saved by water.’ These were the people that were not on the ark when the flood came.

If you recheck your Old Testament, it states nothing about a Gospel being preached by Noe. The Gospel was the good news of the new and everlasting covenant. Noe preached what was to happen and those people did not listen and the waters washed them away. Those were the people in the ‘spirit prison’ that Christ preached too.

Being wrong is always easier that seeking the truth.

At least you realize you’re wrong here. Seriously, you have read things into scriptures that simply are not there in an attempt to prove ‘soul sleep’. I have read them straight forward, without having to add anything, or attempt to read anything into them.

What Church are you affliated with Richard?