Soul Sleep?????

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:sleep: :sleep: I need some advice on this one. My father in law (my wifes entire side of the family for that matter) is baptist. He claims to be a seventh day baptist. He was talking with my wife last night and brought up the idea of soul sleep, that when we die our soul sleeps until Jesus comes again. I have heard of the seventh day adventists holding this odd and unChristian belief but not baptists. My wife brougt up the examples of “Lazarus and the Rich Man” and the “Good Thief on the cross next to Jesus”. My father in law said that one was just a parable and the good thief got into Heaven because he was alive when Jesus was. I have no idea who set this criteria.

My question is for more scriptual evidence against this heresy. I am familiar with the CCC but wanted to know if anybody out there has anything for me on this.

God Bless Everybody,

Joshua 😃
 
jaz1976 said:
:sleep: :sleep: I need some advice on this one. My father in law (my wifes entire side of the family for that matter) is baptist. He claims to be a seventh day baptist. He was talking with my wife last night and brought up the idea of soul sleep, that when we die our soul sleeps until Jesus comes again. I have heard of the seventh day adventists holding this odd and unChristian belief but not baptists. My wife brougt up the examples of “Lazarus and the Rich Man” and the “Good Thief on the cross next to Jesus”. My father in law said that one was just a parable and the good thief got into Heaven because he was alive when Jesus was. I have no idea who set this criteria.

My question is for more scriptual evidence against this heresy. I am familiar with the CCC but wanted to know if anybody out there has anything for me on this.

God Bless Everybody,

Joshua 😃
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Moses & Elijah didn’t die at the time of Jesus’ ministry, and they seem pretty awake to me here:

Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events

also:

Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God

(All describes awareness)

source: geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/biblecheatsheet.html
 
“Amen, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43)
 
You might turn the tables on him and ask for his Scriptural reference that mentions the phrase “soul sleep” as well as those citations that support those words.
 
The scriptures tell us that the Apostles would sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. How could they do this rightly if they were sleeping.

Matt.19


  1. ]28] Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the* twelve tribes** of Israel.

    Hope that helps as well.
 
The following scriptures are difficult to reconcile with the idea of soul-sleep; they are more consistent with the idea of a continued existence after death:
**
2 Corinthians 5:6-9** Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord- for we walk by faith, not by sight- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

Philippians 1:21-24 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

2 Peter 1:13 -14 I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.
 
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jaz1976:
My wife brougt up the examples of “Lazarus and the Rich Man” and the “Good Thief on the cross next to Jesus”. My father in law said that one was just a parable and the good thief got into Heaven because he was alive when Jesus was. I have no idea who set this criteria.
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i dont think Christ was in paradise that day since He said he hasn’t ascended into heaven yet. Jhn 20:17 “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.” Also, there may be some arguments on the word paradise.
 
7th Baptists are an offshoot of 7th Day Adventists. They share a lot of peculiar doctrines which are not based on the Bible, but on private revelations to “prophets” in the 19th century.
I live up here in the middle of the “Psychic Corridor” of NY where the 7th Days (both kinds), Mormons, & Spiritualists got started. They all share a :confused: passion for these private revelations. Many are very nice people, but they are not by any stretch Sola Scriptura. In fact, FWIW, the SS folks that I know, consider all of them to be cults…
 
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rwoehmke:
You might turn the tables on him and ask for his Scriptural reference that mentions the phrase “soul sleep” as well as those citations that support those words.
Click to expand...
Be prepared to deal with
Rom. 6:23
1 Tim. 6:15, 16
Eccl. 9:5, 6
Ps. 146:3, 4
John 11:11-14
1 Cor. 15:51-54
1 Thess. 4:13-17
John 5:28, 29
Rev. 20:1-10

Brandon
 
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thessalonian:
The scriptures tell us that the Apostles would sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. How could they do this rightly if they were sleeping.

Matt.19

  1. ]28] Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the* twelve tribes** of Israel.

    Hope that helps as well.
Click to expand...

  1. An SDA would answer this by saying that the period of judgment spoken of here is during the Millenium which occurs after the resurrection of the righteous dead.

    Peace,
    Brandon
 
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yqbd:
i dont think Christ was in paradise that day since He said he hasn’t ascended into heaven yet. Jhn 20:17 “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.” Also, there may be some arguments on the word paradise.
Click to expand...
Many Adventist would respond to the theif on the cross issue by saying the comma was placed in the wrong place by the english translators and that it should really say, “Verily, I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise”. they back up this interpretation by exactly what you said in your post… ie. Paradise is heave, based on the book of Revelation, yet Christ did not go to heaven that day, for he told his follower not to touch him because he had not risen to his father.

Brandon
 
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Zooey:
7th Baptists are an offshoot of 7th Day Adventists…
Click to expand...
Actually it was the other way around, many early SDA’s were first 7th Day Baptists, in fact it was the 7th day Baptist influence that began “sabbath keeping” in the Adventist movement. The 7th Day Baptist church is much older than the SDA’s.
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Zooey:
They share a lot of peculiar doctrines which are not based on the Bible, but on private revelations to “prophets” in the 19th century…
Click to expand...
I have to respectfully disagree, SDA’s do believe in some doctrines that are more based on EGW than on scripture, however, to my knowledge and from my research in the SDB church, they do not recognize any latter day type prophets, and do not share many of the SDA churches peculiar doctrines.
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Zooey:
Many are very nice people, but they are not by any stretch Sola Scriptura. In fact, FWIW, the SS folks that I know, consider all of them to be cults…
Click to expand...
Peace 🙂

Brandon
 
Here is part of something that I have written in rough draft about soul sleep.

State of the Dead:

Another one of Adventism‘s unique doctrines is the Adventist belief in soul-sleep at death. This basically means that those who die are non-existent as a personality, and cease to think, feel, or continue worshipping in any capacity. In my mind, this makes the resurrection less of a resurrection and more of a re-creation. God would literally have to re-create the person who ceased to exist.

Both my wife and I had concerns and questions about this doctrine for some time. There was so much contradictory information and evidence, yet the Bible verses we had seen seemed clear. As we began studying the issue from both Adventist and non-Adventist sources, some other verses came to light that we had never seen.

Tara and I learned that the Jews, at the time of Christ, did not believe in soul sleep. The apostles did not believe in soul sleep. The early church did not believe in soul sleep, and the current church of Christ doesn’t teach soul sleep. Adventist’s added the doctrine of soul sleep 1800 years after Christ’s death. (although not the first to teach soul sleep)

Ecclesiastes is a book Adventist’s point to time and time again to “prove” soul sleep. Besides finding that the verses they quote could hardly be supportive of the doctrine, I found that the book itself gives an interesting view of what happens at death. Look at the verses below:

(Eccl 12:5 NASB) Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.

(Eccl 12:6 NASB) Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;

(Eccl 12:7 NASB) then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

This verse says that man goes to his eternal home WHILE MOURNERS ARE IN THE STREET. How is this possible if they cease to exist? Mourners would have been in the street while the body was prepared for the burial and after the burial; it is in this time that according to this verse, man goes to his eternal home. Not years later at the great judgment.

We also know the body does not go to its eternal home, for it will later be resurrected and reunited with the soul. What does this mean; it seems to indicate that the soul departs the body at death. The Bible gives an example of this in Genesis:

(Gen 35:18 NASB) **And it came about as her soul was departing (for she died), **that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

(Gen 35:19 NASB) So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem).

Genesis tells us emphatically that the soul, not just the breath departed when she died. Another verse that I found that I had never seen in this light before was Matthew 22:32. It’s a verse we probably have all read several times. It is here that the Jewish leaders were purposefully questioning and even trying to corner Christ specifically about death and the resurrection. Christ makes an “astonishing” statement, the Sadducees did not believe in any life after death, Christ not only confirms that there is life after death, but also makes the claim that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were actually alive!

(Mat 22:29 NASB) But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God.

(Mat 22:30 NASB) "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

(Mat 22:31 NASB) "But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,

(Mat 22:32 NASB) ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

(Mat 22:33 NASB) And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

cont -
 
As is to be expected, the Sadducees were blown-away by this teaching. What was Christ saying? He was saying that even though the Jews knew the bodies of the three patriarchs were dead, the three men were living. Why would he say this? Well, because according to Christ, those who believe in him will not die!! Look at this next verse:

(John 11:25 NASB) Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies,

(John 11:26 NASB) and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

How many Adventist’s believe that we will never die if we believe in Christ? Not many, in fact Adventists believe that nearly all except the faithful at the end of time die, and then are resurrected later. This flies directly in the face of the verse above? This verse is so simple, Christ is assuring the woman he is speaking to that even if she dies, if she believes in him, she is only dead in her physical body, for if we believe in Christ we will never die!

…snip…

(Mat 10:28 NASB) "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Christ states in this verse that there are those who can kill the body, but CANNOT kill the soul, and that we should not fear these people. If the body can be killed, but the soul goes on, as the verse implies, then the soul does not rely on the body for existence, like Adventism teaches.

The understanding that our souls go on after death helped to clarify a passage in 1 Thessalonians, which states that Christ will bring with him those believers who have already died. How can this be if they cease to exist? Here is the passage:

(1 Th 4:13 NASB) But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.

(1 Th 4:14 NASB) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

(1 Th 4:15 NASB) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.

God will BRING with him those who have fallen asleep. Bring with him from where? From heaven! God will bring with Jesus, the believers who have already died from heaven to earth at the second coming. He then goes on to instruct the church to comfort one another with the information from this passage. It makes perfect sense, those who die in a state of Grace can go to heaven at death and they do not cease to exist, even though their bodies die. They then return with Christ to earth to be re-united with their bodies, which are resurrected. The living on earth will be taken into the clouds with the resurrected bodies of the saints.

Even the book of Revelation affirms that the souls of the saved dead saints are in heaven and are, in fact, crying out for justice for their deaths. This tells me a couple of things, first that the souls are aware of what is happening on earth, and are interceding with God for their/our common cause. Second it tells us that they are sympathetic to our plight on earth, and understand the justice of God needs to be poured out on earth.

(Rev 6:9 NASB) And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;

(Rev 6:10 NASB) and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

It is comforting to me to know that those faithful who are in heaven can still have a part in the lifting up and praying for Christ’s work. It is also great to know that there is a church that Christ established and promised to remain with, that is able to consistently teach us the doctrines that have been passed down throughout the history of the Christian Church.

Now, let’s look at a few of the common passages that are used by the Adventist church to try and justify the doctrine of soul sleep. While this won’t be exhaustive, I hope it will cover a couple of the main passages.

Cont -
 
(Rom 6:23 NASB) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is a verse used on www.adventistlibrary.org to support the belief in soul sleep. Let’s look at what this verse is really saying. First of all, it correctly notes that the wages of sin is death. Next the verse says that we don’t have to die, even temporarily, he says that although we are not immortal by nature, the gift he gives those who accept him is eternal life. He doesn’t say, as the Adventists do, that we will have life, then no-life, then back to life again, he says we will have eternal life!

The next verse is in Timothy:

(1 Tim 6:15 NASB) which He will bring about at the proper time-- He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords;

(1 Tim 6:16 NASB) who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

This verse, again does not contradict the truth in the teaching of eternal life, it claims that Christ alone possesses immortality, but 1 Corinthians 15, and the previous verse we looked at(Rom 6:23) both state that Christ grants us eternal life, even though really, he alone possesses eternal life by nature!

The next verse listed is found in Ecclesiastes:

(Eccl 9:5 NASB) For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

(Eccl 9:6 NASB) Indeed their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

Let’s look at what not just these two verses are saying, but what the entire chapter is dealing with. First I am convinced that this verse and this entire passage in Eccl. 9 is speaking of our earthly plans, and is even somewhat allegoric… let me show you why. Look at these verses that are just a few verses before the one quoted above:

(Eccl 9:2 NASB) It is the same for all. **There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; **for the good, for the clean, and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear.

(Eccl 9:3 NASB) This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil, and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.

Now that you have read the verses that are preceding the passage that the Adventist Church uses, what do you think? Notice that the passage says that there is only one fate for both the righteous and the wicked. Does the Adventist Church teach this too? Does it teach that both the good and bad have the same fate? Only as far is it relates to their death on earth. What I mean is that the verse states that both the good and the evil meet the fate of physical death. Even the Adventist church realizes that the fate of the righteous and wicked are different on the other side of death, whether that be immediately as the Bible teaches, or after a period of non-existence, as the Adventist Church teaches.

SNIP…

The point being, SDA’s are not consistent with their application of the verses in Eccl. 9, and therefore twist scripture to fit their doctrines. In order to be consistent, they would be required to answer several problems, including the problem of Moses.

Cont -
 
Some more verses that are used by the SDA Church for the doctrine of soul-sleep are as follows:

(Psa 146:3 NASB) Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.

(Psa 146:4 NASB) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

This verse says clearly that when you die, your thoughts perish. So my first question is: does that square with the other verses we have seen in scripture? The answer is no, they seem to be contradictory. What is the purpose of this verse? This verse is admonishing us not to put our faith in influential people (or princes) because they are only mortal, and their influence and plans for earthly matters will die with them. This verse was not written to be an explanation on the state of the dead. The message of the verse is that we must rely on Christ not man.

Conclusion:

Simply put the doctrine of soul sleep is not supported by tradition, by early church teachings, or by Biblical teachings. I have chosen to square with logic, scripture and the teaching authority of the church, which are all unanimously in opposition to the Adventist Church’s teaching on death.
Again, I know this was kinda rough, but hopefully it helps a little, I had to cut a lot out for the sake of space… so… sorry 😦

Brandon
 
Thanks for the info SDA2RC. I figured that if I posted this question you would write in. I appreciate the posts of everyone here. I knew how to deal with this from what the CCC teaches but it helps to know exactly what makes up these heretical doctrines.

Joshua
 
Wow, Brandon, thanks!! I can see that you invested a lot of time and critical thinking on this issue. My dad is SDA. I will probably never get into a discussion with him about this (he’s almost 81) but I might get caught up in it later with other church members.

What is their #1 topic that they might bring up to me? I’m sure that they have a list but what do you think would be their favorite?

Thanks. Sue
 
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