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SDA2RC
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Definitely the Sabbath is their favorite topic, then after that, the prophecies of the end time (including the papacy being the anti-Christ.)
Brandon
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Brandon
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At_His_Feet
Guest
Thanks for the posts, Brandon!
I’ll respond to what you said here:
"Many Adventist would respond to the theif on the cross issue by saying the comma was placed in the wrong place by the english translators and that it should really say, “Verily, I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise”.
This is a line of reasoning used by other annihilationists such as JWs, Christadelphians, etc.; in fact the JW New World Translation has the comma just as you show it above. (Rotherham’s Bible shows alternative placements of the comma)
An effective line of reasoning against this is this: Jesus used the phrase “Verily I say unto you” in many, many other places in the Gospel accounts; in NONE of the other is it followed by the word “today”, as in “verily I say unto you today”, thus the testimony of the other occurances of “verily I say unto you” argues in favor of the fact that the word “today” belongs with the phrase “you will be with me in paradise.”
I’ll respond to what you said here:
"Many Adventist would respond to the theif on the cross issue by saying the comma was placed in the wrong place by the english translators and that it should really say, “Verily, I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise”.
This is a line of reasoning used by other annihilationists such as JWs, Christadelphians, etc.; in fact the JW New World Translation has the comma just as you show it above. (Rotherham’s Bible shows alternative placements of the comma)
An effective line of reasoning against this is this: Jesus used the phrase “Verily I say unto you” in many, many other places in the Gospel accounts; in NONE of the other is it followed by the word “today”, as in “verily I say unto you today”, thus the testimony of the other occurances of “verily I say unto you” argues in favor of the fact that the word “today” belongs with the phrase “you will be with me in paradise.”
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Exporter
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The man said he was a Seventh Day Baptist,huh? He made that up in my opinion.
Soul sleep? Since he is a Baptist and of course he is a Bible Thumping Protestant, he will believe only what he sees in the Bible- right? (Sola Scriptura). Ask him to find “:SOUL SLEEP”: in his BIBLE.
Soul sleep is a phrase derived from curious but unscientific Protestants. Their lack of understanding of how time aand souls interact was appauling. Do Angels wear wrist watches? Do the Angels need umbrellas? Why dont they need a clock? Did God have a clock before He created the world? No.
It is not definalble. It could be that one ten thousandths of a second in Heaven equals ten thousand earth years. Ask your friend if a soul sleeps then does it have dreams. Ha,Ha.
Soul sleep? Since he is a Baptist and of course he is a Bible Thumping Protestant, he will believe only what he sees in the Bible- right? (Sola Scriptura). Ask him to find “:SOUL SLEEP”: in his BIBLE.
Soul sleep is a phrase derived from curious but unscientific Protestants. Their lack of understanding of how time aand souls interact was appauling. Do Angels wear wrist watches? Do the Angels need umbrellas? Why dont they need a clock? Did God have a clock before He created the world? No.
It is not definalble. It could be that one ten thousandths of a second in Heaven equals ten thousand earth years. Ask your friend if a soul sleeps then does it have dreams. Ha,Ha.
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PhilVaz
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Good posts already, I went through a study of this a while ago, soul sleep is also called “Conditional Immortality” since it is conditional upon receiving “eternal life.” Those not receiving immortality (eternal life) are “annihilated” or snuffed out of existence (eternal death). SdA’s, various other “Seventh-day” groups hold to this, along with sects influenced by them (Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the original Worldwide Church of God and their splinters).
Best verses for “soul sleep” or conditional immortality:
The references to death as “sleep” (e.g. Jesus on Lazarus, John 11:11ff); the “soul” is defined as a combination of the dust of the ground and breath (see KJV translation of Genesis 2:7) therefore man IS a soul, he doesn’t “have” a soul; and “the soul that sins shall die” (Ezek 18:4,20), not be tormented forever; that “immortality” (which only God has) is received as a gift (Rom 6:23) at the resurrection not before (1 Tim 6:16; Rom 2:7; 1 Cor 15:50ff); finally the verses dealing with “destroy,” “perish,” unconsciousness or “ceasing to be” (from Ecclesiastes, Psalms, and Job in particular).
Best counter verses, some already mentioned:
My favorites Matthew 10:28 clearly makes the distinction between the “body” (which can be killed) and the “soul” (which cannot be killed). You’ll have to deal with the word “destroy” here (see my article below); Acts 7:59-60 at martyrdom Stephen commits his “spirit” to God; Ecclesiastes 12:7 refers to the “spirit that returns to God” and the many saints described as alive and conscious after death in the OT and NT (good examples in above posts).
Examination of Conditional Immortality, Soul Sleep, and Annihilationism by PhilVaz
Phil P
Best verses for “soul sleep” or conditional immortality:
The references to death as “sleep” (e.g. Jesus on Lazarus, John 11:11ff); the “soul” is defined as a combination of the dust of the ground and breath (see KJV translation of Genesis 2:7) therefore man IS a soul, he doesn’t “have” a soul; and “the soul that sins shall die” (Ezek 18:4,20), not be tormented forever; that “immortality” (which only God has) is received as a gift (Rom 6:23) at the resurrection not before (1 Tim 6:16; Rom 2:7; 1 Cor 15:50ff); finally the verses dealing with “destroy,” “perish,” unconsciousness or “ceasing to be” (from Ecclesiastes, Psalms, and Job in particular).
Best counter verses, some already mentioned:
My favorites Matthew 10:28 clearly makes the distinction between the “body” (which can be killed) and the “soul” (which cannot be killed). You’ll have to deal with the word “destroy” here (see my article below); Acts 7:59-60 at martyrdom Stephen commits his “spirit” to God; Ecclesiastes 12:7 refers to the “spirit that returns to God” and the many saints described as alive and conscious after death in the OT and NT (good examples in above posts).
Examination of Conditional Immortality, Soul Sleep, and Annihilationism by PhilVaz
Phil P
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SDA2RC
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At His Feet:
Peace,
Brandon
Were I still an Adventist (will play devils advocate here… LOL) I would point out that your trying to prove something with a negative… ie. the non-existence of a certain phrase in other places in the Bible does not prove that one Christ did not use it in the narrative regarding the good theif. There are hundreds/thousands of unique phrases in scripture, this is simply one of them. Furthermore, the alternative comma placement is supported by the statement about paradise, Christ did not ascend into paradise on that day, therefore, he could not have promised the theif on the cross that they would be there together.
Peace,
Brandon
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SusanL
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Christ did not say he was ascending into heaven. He told the good thief that he would be with him in paradise. Could that not include the souls’ “waiting room?” Meaning, of course, the place that previous souls had to wait until the Heaven was opened up through the Resurrection and the Ascension.
This would be the place where Moses, Abraham, Elijah, John the Baptist and all others were waiting. That could have considered part of Paradise.
This would be the place where Moses, Abraham, Elijah, John the Baptist and all others were waiting. That could have considered part of Paradise.
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At_His_Feet
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Good point, Brandon. I, too have been on both sides of this issue so I can appreciate your “devil’s advocate” position. I did not mean, of course, that my line of reasoning about the phrase “Verily I say unto you” was conclusive. I should have said, and still would say, that it should be taken into the whole of what the NT is coherantly saying. Thanks for your comment.
You said Christ did not ascend into Paradise that day. My understanding is that Christ had not yet ascended to *Heaven, *but that he had "descended into ‘the abode of the dead’ " (Apostle’s Creed) and that the place to which he had gone is what is being referred to as Paradise. Yours, or any one else’s thought’s on this?
You said Christ did not ascend into Paradise that day. My understanding is that Christ had not yet ascended to *Heaven, *but that he had "descended into ‘the abode of the dead’ " (Apostle’s Creed) and that the place to which he had gone is what is being referred to as Paradise. Yours, or any one else’s thought’s on this?
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SDA2RC
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At His Feet:
From these verses, I feel the evidence is quite strong that paradise is where the throne of God is, and therefore, heaven. I do not thinik that Paradise moved, if it did we have no indication of such, also, it would require a redefinition of the term paradise, which I do not see the Bible supporting? When Christ says he did not ascend to the Father, I believe this means he did not enter paradise. Any other ideas on this from others?
Brandon
Good question, I make my conclusion based on the other uses of the word paradise in the Bible. For example. 2 corinthians 12:4 … “caught up to paradise”. It is my understanding that this is speaking of heaven. Also, and stronger for me, is Revelation 2:7 where we are told that the tree of life is in paradise. We know from Revelation 22 that the tree of life is split over the river, which flows from the throne of God.
From these verses, I feel the evidence is quite strong that paradise is where the throne of God is, and therefore, heaven. I do not thinik that Paradise moved, if it did we have no indication of such, also, it would require a redefinition of the term paradise, which I do not see the Bible supporting? When Christ says he did not ascend to the Father, I believe this means he did not enter paradise. Any other ideas on this from others?
Brandon
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Exporter
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Susan, Excellent. I have posted a parallel post several times in this past 9 months. Yes - go see - 1st Peter 3:19
That verse from1st Peter said Jesus went to preach to the souls in the Prison after He died on the Cross. What kind of prison would contain spiritual souls? It had to be the souls used to be in the body of of men and women who died. So the prison has to be a spiritual entity. WHy did Jesu go there to preach to those souls? Those souls could not enter Heaven until the Savior of all men had died for the sins of man and had been ascended to heaven. Why/ He was telling them the Good News of their eminate trip to heaven. Since Jesus didnt go to Heaven to give the Good news and he didnt have any news for those in hell - He had to be in another place. That Prison was Purgatory.
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SDA2RC
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Exporter said:
Three common interpretations surface: 1. Christ, between death and resurrection, announced salvation to God’s faithful followers who had been waiting for their salvation during the whole Old Testament era. (This view if often referenced with Matthew 27:52–53 concerning the bodies of the righteous dead spilling out of the tombs at Christ’s death.) 2. His Spirit was in Noah as Noah preached to his neighbors about God and the coming flood, or 3. that Christ proclaimed His victory and final condemnation to the fallen angels in Hades (see 2 Peter 2:4–6).
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At_His_Feet
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SDA2RC - Thanks for the reply. I, also, would like to see some other comments/thoughts on this. It seems like the comments from Exporter and SusanL bear on it.
I’d be interested to see Patristic references to “paradise”, possibly as the pre-ascension abode of the dead, or heaven; also any references to contemporary use of “paradise” by the Pharisees?
I’d be interested to see Patristic references to “paradise”, possibly as the pre-ascension abode of the dead, or heaven; also any references to contemporary use of “paradise” by the Pharisees?
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Montie_Claunch
Guest
Zooey said:7th Baptists are an offshoot of 7th Day Adventists. They share a lot of peculiar doctrines which are not based on the Bible, but on private revelations to “prophets” in the 19th century.
I live up here in the middle of the “Psychic Corridor” of NY where the 7th Days (both kinds), Mormons, & Spiritualists got started. They all share apassion for these private revelations. Many are very nice people, but they are not by any stretch Sola Scriptura. In fact, FWIW, the SS folks that I know, consider all of them to be cults…
acctually I thing SDA where an offshoot of 7th day baptist.
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Montie_Claunch
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Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
I don’t see how that relates.
1 Tim. 6:15,16 and this will be made manifest at the proper time by the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
Umm… “No man has seen or can see” by that reasoning would mean we would never get to heaven.
and I beleive SDA2RC covered Ecc. 9:5 and Psalm 146:3,4 . (thank you Mr. SDA2RC)
John 11:11-14 Thus he spoke, and then he said to them, “Our friend Laz’arus has fallen asleep, but I go to awake him out of sleep.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, "Laz’arus is dead;
I fail to see the connection. People say that someone has “fallen asleep” when they die but, bears no point on the soal as people on this thread have made abundently clear.
agian with 1 Cor. 15:51-54 I fail to see the concetion. Paul is talking about the general judgement when this hapens.
1st thess. 4:13-17 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.
it sounds to me like its saying that that the dead will be judged before those who are alive (as if those who died are judged and could go to heaven hell or purgatory.
John 5:28, 29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
I would like to give you the next verse which was conveniantly left out. John 5:30 I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just
These veres in no way implys soul sleep. It simply states that they will be doing a little waiting before Jesus will judge them (which leads me to think possibly when Jesus is done with calvery or whenever Jesus feels like, as with Moses and Elijah)
Rev. 20:1-10, I will admitt I don’t quite understand. Thou I still fail to see a connection. If the lord is going to ressurect our bodies at the General Judgement I don’t see why he couldn’t do that with a few people, (I mean he is God after all). Maybe someone else can offer some insight.
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