Souls in hell become demons who come back to torment us

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I read the following story which has the IMPRIMATUR of Joseph F. Busch, the Bishop of St. Cloud, Minnesota. Which means that there is nothing within it’s contents which contradicts Catholic Church teaching.

To summarize the key points of the story, an evil man cursed his own daughter and delivered her to Satan. As a result of this, she became possesed by demons for over a quarter of a century until priests were able to drive the demons out.

During the exorcism, one of the demons possessing her was Judas Iscariot, the former Apostle and another former human was her own father who was damned to hell for “the crime of giving his own child to the devils”. In addition to these two former humans, there was a bunch of fallen angels who were also possessing her.

Comments? Opinions?

I was always under the impression the demons of hell were the fallen angels but this passage seems to indicate that humans damned to hell also become demons capable of tempting us and coming to torment us.
 
One of the things I took away from the Father Gabriel Amorth book on exorcisms was that the testimony of demons is by definition unreliable. It could very easily be that the demon just lied. However, as a concept it is intriguing - I guess if the kingdom of Heaven has both angels and saints, both of which have been granted access to this world, then maybe the same access can be given to both demons and sinners from the other place.
 
Does a cat become a dog when it dies? A pig turn into a parrot?

Bad people don’t become demons when they die, any more than a good person becomes an angel upon death.

That a parent’s curse can have such ill effects is well known. However, as was pointed out, the devil is a liar, and so are inferior demons. Nothing they say should be taken as true.
 
That was some seriously scarey stuff 😦 I rarely, if ever, think of the consequences of eternal damnation. I might need to adjust my thinking from now on :o
 
Does the bible have any stories of humans going to purgatory?
 
Does the bible have any stories of humans going to purgatory?
We have the origin of demons in all that is told about fallen angels - so again - does the Bible have any stories where humans become demons?
 
One of the things I took away from the Father Gabriel Amorth book on exorcisms was that the testimony of demons is by definition unreliable. It could very easily be that the demon just lied.
I would think this post is enough to show how an impramatur could have been granted without validating humans becoming demons.
 
We have the origin of demons in all that is told about fallen angels - so again - does the Bible have any stories where humans become demons?
Or, another way to look at it is that the bible tells us that those in hell are demons. Souls that are damned to hell are also in hell and therefore, they could also become demons.

Look, I don’t feel comfortable arguing this one way or the other but I’m trying to reconcile what is mentioned in the link that I referenced in the opening post.
 
Or, another way to look at it is that the bible tells us that those in hell are demons. Souls that are damned to hell are also in hell and therefore, they could also become demons.

Look, I don’t feel comfortable arguing this one way or the other but I’m trying to reconcile what is mentioned in the link that I referenced in the opening post.
I know you think you have irrefutable power against demons. Perhaps through the power of the precious blood of Jesus, you do. But be careful of your pride. Debating this kind of issue gives them energy and attention. That’s what they want. When you use the word d—n, you give them “glory” especially when you engage in a series of posts about their world. Don’t do it. They may be using you through your false pride. I am not saying that you have false pride, I don’t know you. But everyone has their weakness and the dark side will exploit that weakness every time. Please think about what I am saying before you respond. May God Continue to Bless You for your good works.
 
Or, another way to look at it is that the bible tells us that those in hell are demons. Souls that are damned to hell are also in hell and therefore, they could also become demons.

Look, I don’t feel comfortable arguing this one way or the other but I’m trying to reconcile what is mentioned in the link that I referenced in the opening post.
There are demons (fallen angels) and those who suffer in hell (those who do not make it to heaven). We do not hear of demons suffering like those humans who fail to make it to heaven.
 
I think that this has somehow become very confused. I read the account that Sir Knight is referring to about a year ago. The text never said that humans became demons- this is a metephisical impossibility- it did , however, state that the souls of dammned humans may inhabit a possesed person. there is nothing in out Faith that says that this is impossible, and I find it to be quite probable when you consider that a classification such as “unclean spirit” may encompass both demon and human.

Let me make this very clear- human beings, no matter how damned, never become demons. Sir Knight, if you recall, the exorcist in the account you read even states at one point that the souls of damned humans act differently during the exorcism, and this indicates that they retain thier origional nature. it is not in the human nature to become anything other than human, whereas a c aterpillar has it in its nature to become a butterfly. we do not become angles or demons when we die, we become saints or the damned.

does this help?
 
Sir Knight;
To summarize the key points of the story, an evil man cursed his own daughter and delivered her to Satan. As a result of this, she became possessed by demons for over a quarter of a century until priests were able to drive the demons out.
I’m skeptical about this, as you’re presenting it.

From what I’ve read about demonic possession, from Malachi Martin, and also heard from the official exorcist priest of the Archdioceses of New York, demonic possession doesn’t work this way. When a demon attempts to take control over a person, they only way is through the person’s will. They must surrender their will to the demon. Free will, which is God’s greatest gift to us, can not be taken away by another person, in this case the father taking the free will of his daughter, and handing it over to the demon.

The only possible way would be that the father, through coercion, convince the daughter to surrender her will to the demon. Perhaps this is what actually happened?

Jim
 
I think that the account given above is very much in line with many ghost stories around the world. It also makes sense to me on a practical basis. Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven is inside the hearts of men. Why not the kingdom of hell too? And if saints can continue to involve themselves in people’s actions after death, why not the damned also? Heaven is a state of mind, at least as much as it is a place. If one is fully unified with God, one is immersed in his love, joy and peace. Unity with God is what is most important about the experience of being in heaven, and that unity is what makes all the rest of heaven’s glories present and valuable. In the same way, separation from God is the most terrible horror of hell. Separation from God and unity with God are the central aspects of hell and heaven.

So the opinion expressed in the article makes sense to me. I’d like to know what evidence we can present, though (aside from the fact that this church official supports the idea), that it is an acceptable position to hold in the Catholic Church.

You see, my judgment is influenced by this:
Catholic Encyclopedia:
Where is hell? Some were of opinion that hell is everywhere, that the damned are at liberty to roam about in the entire universe, but that they carry their punishment with them. The adherents of this doctrine were called Ubiquists, or Ubiquitarians; among them were, e.g., Johann Brenz, a Swabian, a Protestant theologian of the sixteenth century. However, that opinion is universally and deservedly rejected; for it is more in keeping with their state of punishment that the damned be limited in their movements and confined to a definite place.
I know that Ubiquists were ejected from the Catholic Church because of their heretical views of the Eucharist. If they held this opinion that the damned can roam the Earth as well, the fact that they were ejected from the Church doesn’t necessarily mean that this particular opinion is also condemned, for they were removed from the Church primarily over the Eucharist.

Are there other sources by which we can know whether or not this opinion about the damned is an acceptable Church position?
 
I read the following story which has the IMPRIMATUR of Joseph F. Busch, the Bishop of St. Cloud, Minnesota. Which means that there is nothing within it’s contents which contradicts Catholic Church teaching.

To summarize the key points of the story, an evil man cursed his own daughter and delivered her to Satan. As a result of this, she became possesed by demons for over a quarter of a century until priests were able to drive the demons out.

During the exorcism, one of the demons possessing her was Judas Iscariot, the former Apostle and another former human was her own father who was damned to hell for “the crime of giving his own child to the devils”. In addition to these two former humans, there was a bunch of fallen angels who were also possessing her.

Comments? Opinions?

I was always under the impression the demons of hell were the fallen angels but this passage seems to indicate that humans damned to hell also become demons capable of tempting us and coming to torment us.
Hell was indeed meant for the demons and not for humans, however some people do go there by their own choice. But they do not become demons. They remain human souls.

The story you’re referring to, Begone, Satan! by Father Carl Vogl does indeed detail the exorcism you described.

However, he makes an important point. Demons are liars and we can’t believe a word they say. They sometimes may be forced to speak the truth in exorcism, but who is to say the spirit claiming to be the woman’s father was not in fact just another lying demon? One of the spirits claimed to be the soul of Judas. Fr. Vogl points out the importance of not believing what demons say:
We do not give the father of lies credit for being a reliable witness in such matters as the crucifixion, even if there is no doubt that many devils were personal witnesses to the crucifixion of Christ. In like manner I would have no one believe that we know for certain that Judas is in hell, just because he claimed that he was one of the damned in the case of possession at Earling. Holy Mother Church has never yet given a decision regarding this matter even though the words of our Saviour about Judas are thought- provoking: “It would have been better if that man had never been born.”
The bottom line is, humans cannot become demons, the same way humans do not become angels in Heaven. Is it possible for human souls to come back and torment people? I don’t know - but I don’t think we should take a demon’s word for it.
 
From what I’ve read about demonic possession, from Malachi Martin, and also heard from the official exorcist priest of the Archdioceses of New York, demonic possession doesn’t work this way. When a demon attempts to take control over a person, they only way is through the person’s will. They must surrender their will to the demon. Free will, which is God’s greatest gift to us, can not be taken away by another person, in this case the father taking the free will of his daughter, and handing it over to the demon.

The only possible way would be that the father, through coercion, convince the daughter to surrender her will to the demon. Perhaps this is what actually happened?
That’s not exactly the way it works, in my experience. I was nearly possessed by a demon when I was fifteen, so I remember what it feels like.

What you say is true, one cannot be possessed without surrendering the will. But it’s not like one makes the decision to surrender the will in a clear environment. It’s not a decision that the mind based upon reason and choice alone. It’s closer to being tortured into submission.

You know, a person being tortured for information always has a choice. They can keep resisting the torture, or they can surrender their own wills and do the torturer’s will. So there’s always a choice.

A demon can bring to bear on the mind many powerful tools to coerce the surrender of the mind to its will. For instance, a person on drugs is more susceptible to demonic possession. A person who is addicted to some sort of sin, such as sexual licentiousness, might be more vulnerable, as they feel pressure inside their mind to continue to behave in this way. I think that demons can cause mental problems, insanity and such. The Bible describes Jesus as curing demoniacs whose behavior was very much like insanity. Submitting one’s will to the devil is not a clean intellectual act- there is a very powerful compulsive element to it. A drug addict feeling compelled to take drugs is similar. They could resist, but their will is under such pressure that they don’t choose to resist.

My experience didn’t include any of those things. I had committed no sin- in fact, I was just beginning to pray that God would give me a deeper relationship with him, that I would come to know him as a reality rather than as an idea. My faith was non-existent at that point and I wanted God, so I began to pray for a relationship with him. A demon at that point attacked me, and I began to feel an enormous compulsive pressure in my mind to murder my family members or to commit suicide. I would be doing completely mundane things, or chatting with family members, and suddenly I was under incredible pressure to just kill them, and I had to strain with all of my willpower to resist. Many times it almost wasn’t enough. Once, when I was standing and talking with my Dad in the garden, the pressure was so great that I had to open my hand (which was clutching a hammer) and let the hammer fall to the floor where we stood, because otherwise I would have struck and killed my father. It was horrible, and I didn’t tell anyone about it because I was afraid that I was going insane, and would have to be sent to the asylum.

Then I met Christ. He answered my prayers and revealed himself to me, and told me that he would protect me. Then I told my parents about what I had been going through, and they realized immediately that it was a demon and prayed over me.

A few days later, the demon came back, though. I actually physically saw it, a lobster-like creature a foot long with many pincers and claws that appeared next to me in the night and then vanished into thin air.

I went out into the living room of my house and then sensed an incredibly powerful and twisted presence, full of hatred and the desire to murder. I banished it in the name of Jesus and it went, and it never returned after that.

Throughout my times enduring near-possession, my mind was under incredible pressure, incredibly strong. The Lord told me, when I got to know him, that if it hadn’t been for the support of his Holy Spirit, I wouldn’t have survived the attack.

My experiences tell me that free will is involved, but just as a person with a drug addiction feels massive psychological pressure to satisfy his urge, a person enduring possession trauma can feel incredible pressure to surrender his will to the demon. The demon doesn’t only ask for the person’s will- the demon demands it, tries to force compliance as a torturer might when trying to get someone to give information.

They are cruel. Free Will is involved, for one must choose to submit to the pressure. The drug addict always has a choice.

My suspicion is that the father cursed the daughter and the demons came and haunted the daughter so horribly and severely that she surrendered to their will and became their captive.

There can be pressure such as the kind I described, but there also is deception. A person can be deceived by the evil spirit and thus invaded. There are a lot of ways that these kinds of things can occur, but the enemy doesn’t just ask nicely if you will give your soul to the devil. He’ll rather say, “follow me- I’m God!”, or might try to deceive in another way and so gain control of another person’s will. Or the demon might actually try to force another person to submit to being possessed, as one did with me.
 
Sir Knight;

I’m skeptical about this, as you’re presenting it.

From what I’ve read about demonic possession, from Malachi Martin, and also heard from the official exorcist priest of the Archdioceses of New York, demonic possession doesn’t work this way. When a demon attempts to take control over a person, they only way is through the person’s will. They must surrender their will to the demon. Free will, which is God’s greatest gift to us, can not be taken away by another person, in this case the father taking the free will of his daughter, and handing it over to the demon.

The only possible way would be that the father, through coercion, convince the daughter to surrender her will to the demon. Perhaps this is what actually happened?

Jim
Malachi Martin’s book makes a good doorstop, and that’s about all. I would stick with the works of Fr. Gabriele Amorth, not the work of a laicized and schismatic priest who led people away from the Church.

By the way, demons do not control a person’s free will. They may control the body, but they cannot control the will.

The reason demons can take possession of an innocent person is that demons have free will, also. If a person calls down curses on another, they are asking for demonic intervention in another’s life, and demons are more than happy to oblige. It does not require a person’s consent to become the recipient of a curse.

By the way, Fr. Amorth, the exorcist of Rome, covers this in his books. 😉
 
Does a cat become a dog when it dies? A pig turn into a parrot?

Bad people don’t become demons when they die, any more than a good person becomes an angel upon death.

That a parent’s curse can have such ill effects is well known. However, as was pointed out, the devil is a liar, and so are inferior demons. Nothing they say should be taken as true.
Demons are unlike any creatures on earth above…they are spirits. Fallen souls can be a kind of demon/human soul to do Satan’s bidding. Poltergeists are some form of demon I gather.
 
Fallen souls can be a kind of demon/human soul to do Satan’s bidding.
That Satan can use the human damned is only logical, really. He uses those who will do evil here on Earth. Jesus called people on Earth children of the devil who always did the will of their master. Why would that change after death?

I really would like to know if the Church has any official teaching on this, though. 😦
 
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