souls in hell

[Mystic_Warrior]

I missed this before, my appologies.

How do you know, that the person you met was not actually filled with Joy?

Are you so sure you recognize Joy?

Or Peace?

Many claim to, and yet, they all do the wrong thing

I can’t see into their heart, but I can judge by what I see on the outside. There is no grace in their lives, their demeanor or actions. They do not go through tough times and trust God in the end. True joy is trusting God and allowing His Holy Spirit to dwell in them.

Can I see it, feel it, touch it, measure it, weigh it? No. But love exists and we know it by its actions, by its fruits. So it is with joy. So it is with hate, anger and other emotions and states of mind. If you are pure materialist, these things mean nothing to you.

I know what peace and joy are like in my own life. I use that same knowledge when meeting people. I’m not judging one’s sin or heart, just what I see expressed in their lives.

Peace…

MW

 

[Dameedna]

I’m not talking about invincible ignorance where they know nothing of God. Simply ignorance as opposed to wisdom in the form of foolishness. Foolishness would have been a better word to use, but I use them interchangeably to mean the same thing.

Peace…

MW

It’s a difficult concept isn’t it?

I am not ignorant of what the worlds religions teach me about God. I do not know the innate details of all those religions either.

I do specifically reject certain doctrines, just like every human.

I think it’s a bit too hard to decide what 'human" will or will not be saved in accordance with their knowlege(human knowlege) of God.

Any “group” that claims abosolute “rights” over God, is dangerous.

Thankfully, catholicism for all its nuances, doesn’t do that.

 

[Dameedna]

I can’t see into their heart, but I can judge by what I see on the outside. There is no grace in their lives, their demeanor or actions. They do not go through tough times and trust God in the end. True joy is trusting God and allowing His Holy Spirit to dwell in them.

See, I used to think I could judge another by their actions. I have come across VERY few people who truly challenged that.

I was very privaledged to come across one friend who did.

I’m not so quick to presume anymore, that I see things, the way they really are. When some-one comes along, and shakes your world… you grow and expand. It’s a shift in reality.

My “friend” taught me that life is growth. I’m never going to be correct in how I precieve others. I simply need to get to know them and treat them well.

More important. I’ve never stagnant. Peace…will never last. Our lives are not made for peace and joy, they are made for growth.

Can I see it, feel it, touch it, measure it, weigh it? No. But love exists and we know it by its actions, by its fruits. So it is with joy. So it is with hate, anger and other emotions and states of mind. If you are pure materialist, these things mean nothing to you.

I know what peace and joy are like in my own life. I use that same knowledge when meeting people. I’m not judging one’s sin or heart, just what I see expressed in their lives.

Peace…

MW

Well I’m glad you have peace. But honestly? I don’t think any of us do. We only have it in degrees. IE we are more at peace than we used to be.

The lesson my friend taught me, is to never be complacent.

Life is for growth. Not about believing we’ve finally “reached” a point where we get it. As soon as we think this, we have stopped growing.

I don’t think its so easy to see anothers “goodness” because it’s limited by ourselves and our own failings.

There is even more joy on the horizon And that’s perhaps another debate.

But it does lead me to believe, that the human soul, in a state of “hell” isn’t etneral if it doesn’t want to be.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

See, I used to think I could judge another by their actions. I have come across VERY few people who truly challenged that.

I was very privaledged to come across one friend who did.

I’m not so quick to presume anymore, that I see things, the way they really are. When some-one comes along, and shakes your world… you grow and expand. It’s a shift in reality.

My “friend” taught me that life is growth. I’m never going to be correct in how I precieve others. I simply need to get to know them and treat them well.

More important. I’ve never stagnant. Peace…will never last. Our lives are not made for peace and joy, they are made for growth.

Well I’m glad you have peace. But honestly? I don’t think any of us do. We only have it in degrees. IE we are more at peace than we used to be.

The lesson my friend taught me, is to never be complacent.

Life is for growth. Not about believing we’ve finally “reached” a point where we get it. As soon as we think this, we have stopped growing.

I don’t think its so easy to see anothers “goodness” because it’s limited by ourselves and our own failings.

There is even more joy on the horizon And that’s perhaps another debate.

But it does lead me to believe, that the human soul, in a state of “hell” isn’t etneral if it doesn’t want to be.

Life is about growth. It’s about learning what good and evil are. And based on our knowledge of those things, so shall we be judged.

We are human and imperfect as you say. So, we will never be able to fully know some things. But, just as anything else, we can see by the fruits of some things whether or not peace, love, hate or anger exist. We will never know joy, peace and contentment fully in these earthly bodies. That is for the world to come. This life and our bodies are temporary, so are our emotions and states of mind. The afterlife is a different story.

Christ said that it’s not what goes in our mouths that make us unclean, but what comes out. For out of the abundance of his heart a man speaks, says Scripture. If garbage is inside, garbage will come out. If goodness is inside, goodness comes out. Pretty logical assumption.

Peace…

MW

 

[Dameedna]

Life is about growth. It’s about learning what good and evil are. And based on our knowledge of those things, so shall we be judged.

I agree.

I do question a religion/philosophy that is focussed on peace, and the “ultimate” joy of peace. I’m not looking for that anymore. Peace…to me, is overrated. Joy…is overrated. Sounds depressing to some, but it’s meaningless to me unless it has a “point”. But I’m also concerned with a religion that constantly focuses on sin and human growth, without the understanding it’s something for the here and now.

There is no point to “peace” unless I can do something with it.

I agree in concept that we are here to grow. For many goodness is about rules. I’m thinking, how about you know WHY it’s wrong.

And I don’t mean it’s wrong cause God said it was. lol!!

We are human and imperfect as you say. So, we will never be able to fully know some things. But, just as anything else, we can see by the fruits of some things whether or not peace, love, hate or anger exist. We will never know joy, peace and contentment fully in these earthly bodies. That is for the world to come. This life and our bodies are temporary, so are our emotions and states of mind. The afterlife is a different story.

Christ said that it’s not what goes in our mouths that make us unclean, but what comes out. For out of the abundance of his heart a man speaks, says Scripture. If garbage is inside, garbage will come out. If goodness is inside, goodness comes out. Pretty logical assumption.

This quote to me, is meaningless because it has no reference point.

These are just statments.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I agree.

I do question a religion/philosophy that is focussed on peace, and the “ultimate” joy of peace. I’m not looking for that anymore. Peace…to me, is overrated. Joy…is overrated. Sounds depressing to some, but it’s meaningless to me unless it has a “point”. But I’m also concerned with a religion that constantly focuses on sin and human growth, without the understanding it’s something for the here and now.

There is no point to “peace” unless I can do something with it.

So, peace is a bad thing? I’ve actually only met a small minority of people who didn’t want peace. But, I won’t go into that. I wouldn’t assume the same things about you. You question the point of peace and joy?

If for nothing else, feeling those emotions are enough to make me want them. They are pleasant. It’s human nature to avoid pain and obtain pleasure (even from a materialist POV), so I’m not sure what to make of your comments.

No point unless you can do something about it? What about giving it to others who need it? You can do something with it - enrich yourself and others.

I agree in concept that we are here to grow. For many goodness is about rules. I’m thinking, how about you know WHY it’s wrong.

And I don’t mean it’s wrong cause God said it was. lol!!

Goodness isn’t about rules. It’s a natural fruit of the Holy Spirit.

This quote to me, is meaningless because it has no reference point.

These are just statments.

Their basis is in Holy Scripture. I don’t understand your need for a reference point?

Of course they are statements. When you write something or say something you are making a statement, whether opinion or fact.

Peace…

MW

 

[Dameedna]

So, peace is a bad thing? I’ve actually only met a small minority of people who didn’t want peace. But, I won’t go into that. I wouldn’t assume the same things about you. You question the point of peace and joy?

No. I do not believe that a human being can reach that place. And if they believe they have, then they’ve stopped growing. This is not negativity…it’s actually inspiring.

I do not disrepect the goal, just that eventually if you reach your goal of joy and peace and happiness you become unhappy with it. Eventually one realizes that these things are not actually the goal.

If for nothing else, feeling those emotions are enough to make me want them. They are pleasant. It’s human nature to avoid pain and obtain pleasure (even from a materialist POV), so I’m not sure what to make of your comments.

No point unless you can do something about it? What about giving it to others who need it? You can do something with it - enrich yourself and others.

Every human wants to feel good. They want to feel joy, pleasure and peace. Many people sit in a world, where they feel these things to a degree. My point is, that life doesn’t stand still. No-one…NO-ONE will ever remain in that place of peace and joy. Life will drive them to grow.

There will alway’s be some that will say they’ve made it. I’m happy for them. But they are wrong. That’s never been their goal as a human soul.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

No. I do not believe that a human being can reach that place. And if they believe they have, then they’ve stopped growing. This is not negativity…it’s actually inspiring.

Peace and joy aren’t “places”. They are states of mind and emotions. We experience them to a degree on earth. We experience them fully with the Father.

I do not disrepect the goal, just that eventually if you reach your goal of joy and peace and happiness you become unhappy with it. Eventually one realizes that these things are not actually the goal.

I’ve never tired of the moments of peace and joy I’ve experienced. I relish them. I crave them. King David said this in prayer to God: “Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation”. He wanted his joy back. So do I pursue this joy on a daily basis.

I see the world as light and dark. Things of light are never tiring. Things of the dark are always lacking. Peace and joy are light. Anger and hatred are dark. One grows tired of the darkness, not the light.

Every human wants to feel good. They want to feel joy, pleasure and peace. Many people sit in a world, where they feel these things to a degree. My point is, that life doesn’t stand still. No-one…NO-ONE will ever remain in that place of peace and joy. Life will drive them to grow.

Change is the only constant in this world, true. My contention would be with the last part. As I have said before, in this temporary life, we cannot remain in peace and joy constantly. But, the hereafter is different. It’s eternal. Even if you believed in reincarnation you could easily see this.

There will alway’s be some that will say they’ve made it. I’m happy for them. But they are wrong. That’s never been their goal as a human soul.

I’ve not “made it” because that assumes one has achieved that state and never can fall away from it. That’s an untruth. However, we can experience moments and phases of joy. Maybe it’s a topic for another thread, but what is your understanding of the goal of a human soul (outside of “life is about growth”)? Because that’s a pretty empty and simplistic goal.

Peace…

MW

 

[Drlit]

Because regardless of what the human MIND may think, the soul hungers always to be with God.

 

[Ridgerunner]

This sounds a lot like what I understand the Orthodox position to be - heaven, hell and purgatory are physically the same place, but our dispositions towards that place make it one or the other - there is a quote from St Augustine where he says that the same action of stirring a cesspit and a perfume produce opposite results based on the substance, which seems to support this.

Is it heretical from a Catholic point of view though? Doesn’t the CCC explicitly state that Hell is the absence of God?

I don’t know that the Catholic Church has a position on whether hell is a particular place or a state of being only. Perhaps one of the theologians on here could clarify that.

But your statement reminded me of something that I have sometimes wondered about. In their state of primordial innocence, did Adam and Eve perhaps live in a world no different at all from our own? If a person was perfectly accepting of God’s will, I am wondering whether this world would be paradise to him or her rather than a “Vale of tears”. Even death, which our first parents introduced. We know that many, even now, do not think of death as “death”, but simply as a life process. And, in a sense, they’re right about that. Properly speaking, we should all realize that Christ “abolished death” from all eternity, and not think of death in the way we do. If we were perfectly accepting of God’s will, we would not think of death as even really existing in any meaningful sense. But, not being a theologian, I will not further go on about it, lest I cross the line into some heresy or other by inadvertence.

 

[Dameedna]

Peace and joy aren’t “places”. They are states of mind and emotions. We experience them to a degree on earth. We experience them fully with the Father.

I have met many who have “experienced” peace and joy through their father. Only to later realize, it was the wrong thing.

You claim an absolute. I don’t. Life is growth…you may sit in your place for ever more, and feel at peace with it.

I don’t think that’s what the point is , nor is it right. Your peace, you claim is with God. Okay then.

I’ve never tired of the moments of peace and joy I’ve experienced. I relish them. I crave them. King David said this in prayer to God: “Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation”. He wanted his joy back. So do I pursue this joy on a daily basis.

Restore peace. Meaning, he doesn’t have it.

I see the world as light and dark.

You see the world in absolutes.

I don’t

 

[Ridgerunner]

How I understand hell now is this: When we die and approach God, many are going to have different reactions toward facing the Divine. Some will rejoice (the saints), others will be powerfully penitent and sorrowful though their love of God and God’s love for them will sustain them (purgatory). Finally, there will be a third group so angry at God or so full of despair that they will feel a certain pain in the presence of God. These men and women are in hell, and they will remain there, persistent in their hatred or despair, never wanting to be happy with him, being unable to understand how one could be happy.

QUOTE]

St. Therese of Lisieux said something very similar to this. If so, it’s really hard to wrap one’s mind around it. If, indeed, there is, at or after death, a “moment of truth” when all becomes clear; when the true nature of our sins is revealed in the glaring light in which God understands them, when we can then reject or accept offered forgiveness, but must face the truth about ourselves to do the latter, it is hard to think anyone would reject forgiveness and opt for hell. But St. Therese maintained that everyone in hell is a knowing volunteer who understands fully what the decision is and what its ramifications are. To her, it is no mistake, but the most perfectly informed decision of our entire existence. And, knowing it is irrevocable, and willing it to be irrevocable, we make it. We deliberately opt to live within a lie we create for ourselves, knowing it is a lie. Knowing something (albeit imperfectly) about human stubbornness and pride, I can comprehend that a little, but not very well. I have trouble imagining the fallen angels doing that, their comprehension being greater than ours. Self-worship in such extremes is always difficult to understand, even though we do it in smaller ways all the time. St. Therese is one of the Doctors of the Church, and her thoughts are not to be ignored. The Church has always taught that there is such a thing as “final penitence”, though the emphases of one expostulator are not the emphases of another. She rejected the notion we all seem to harbor to some degree, of God as the “Divine trickster”, who, e.g., sends us to hell when we have an auto accident on the way home from some heavy date or questionable business deal. Hers is not an “aha! gotcha!” God.

But her thinking is troubling to the conscience in another way. She had no trouble at all with the thought of throwing herself on God’s mercy because she, herself, loved God and “practiced” it all the time, in her “little way”, despite ferocious “dark nights of the soul” she underwent. Her life was a constant “conversation” with God in that way. She was, therefore, not afraid of Him at all.
She was well prepared to accept forgiveness, then, accepting as she did (and in good humor, not at all morbidly) that she required it constantly, notwithstanding that we would find no fault with her on a human level.