Souls in Hell

[bixntram]

The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X
Q6. Shall the bliss of paradise and the miseries of hell be the same for all men?
A. The bliss of heaven in the case of the blessed, and the miseries of hell in the case of the damned, will be the same in substance and in eternal duration; but in measure, or degree, they will be greater or less according to the extent of each one’s merits or demerits.

Where - in God’s name - did Pius X get this from? Ot did he just think it up himself?

Do souls in hell have free will?

I just became a Catholic this Easter (2015). It pains me that I can’t accept this dogma about hell, so I guess I’m a heretic. It pains me that after such a short time, I can’t go along with the dogma of eternal punishment. I think I’m on the way to being an ex-Catholic.

I’ll tell you something, though: I met three new Catholic friends, two long-time Catholics, one a newbie like me. Each one of them is a universalist and doesn’t believe in the concept of eternal punishment in hell - so, at least I’m not alone.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Where - in God’s name - did Pius X get this from? Ot did he just think it up himself?

Do souls in hell have free will?

I just became a Catholic this Easter (2015). It pains me that I can’t accept this dogma about hell, so I guess I’m a heretic. It pains me that after such a short time, I can’t go along with the dogma of eternal punishment. I think I’m on the way to being an ex-Catholic.

I’ll tell you something, though: I met three new Catholic friends, two long-time Catholics, one a newbie like me. Each one of them is a universalist and doesn’t believe in the concept of eternal punishment in hell - so, at least I’m not alone.

What is it about God’s loving justice about giving those who reject Him what they want most? God doesn’t send people to Hell for eternity are you struggling with? Those in Hell send themselves there by rejecting God through mortal sin. God gives everyone sufficient grace to go to Heaven, but many choose to reject Him.

 

[bixntram]

In the book, The Dialogue of St. Catherine of Siena where God the Father speaks to this saint, he says concerning Lazarus and the rich man asking him to go to his brothers, “He did it because he was the eldest, and had nourished them up in the same miseries in which he had lived, so that he was the cause of their damnation, and he saw pain increased to himself, on account of their damnation when they should arrive in torment together with him, to be gnawed forever by hatred, because in hatred they finished their lives.”

Hope that helps.

A fanciful and jesuitical explanation of the Lazarus parable (which, BTW, was borrowed from a Jewish work titled the “Gemara Babylonica”). None of this whatsoever is in the biblical passage.

 

[Vico]

Where - in God’s name - did Pius X get this from? Ot did he just think it up himself?

Do souls in hell have free will?

I just became a Catholic this Easter (2015). It pains me that I can’t accept this dogma about hell, so I guess I’m a heretic. It pains me that after such a short time, I can’t go along with the dogma of eternal punishment. I think I’m on the way to being an ex-Catholic.

I’ll tell you something, though: I met three new Catholic friends, two long-time Catholics, one a newbie like me. Each one of them is a universalist and doesn’t believe in the concept of eternal punishment in hell - so, at least I’m not alone.

The souls in hell cannot change their state, because they have already been condemned in the particular judgement.

The Catholic Church condemns universalism. Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra, Bull of union with the Armenians:

Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains. We also define that the holy apostolic see and the Roman pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world and the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter prince of the apostles, and that he is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians, and to him was committed in blessed Peter the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church, as is contained also in the acts of ecumenical councils and in the sacred canons.

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#3

 

[SuS33]

Where - in God’s name - did Pius X get this from? Ot did he just think it up himself?

Do souls in hell have free will?

I just became a Catholic this Easter (2015). It pains me that I can’t accept this dogma about hell, so I guess I’m a heretic. It pains me that after such a short time, I can’t go along with the dogma of eternal punishment. I think I’m on the way to being an ex-Catholic.

I’ll tell you something, though: I met three new Catholic friends, two long-time Catholics, one a newbie like me. Each one of them is a universalist and doesn’t believe in the concept of eternal punishment in hell - so, at least I’m not alone.

It’s not about what you think is right it’s about what God wants you to think is right and what God knows only. if you want the grace to understand this dogma then you have to pray for it

after coming home a year and a half ago there was a lot of things that I found hard to accept so I prayed a lot for the Lord to teach me like he taught his disciples and he did he started to unravel to me all the mysteries and I started to believe in them and even thought that I discovered new ones until I read later that they were already taught by the church.

Catholics believe that faith is a grace from God not something that we choose to believe, it’s a gift. After you are giving that gift you are free to enjoy it or reject it, if you reject it, it means you reject God, cuz grace mean God’s own life. When people reject it they spend eternety without God like they wanted to in the first place. People who accept it earn eternity in Heaven with God.

As for the teachings of the church, you might not find everything in the bible right away but everything is fully supported by scriptures. But not everything has to be written, there are not enough books that could contain all of that, thats why Jesus entrusted the apostles and their descendants of something called the Deposit Of Faith. If you don’t trust the Church, then trust Jesus that he will never lead his Church into that kinda error concerning infallible matters. If you don’t trust Jesus, then ask for the graces you need so he would lead you where he wants you to be.

And remember “Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the Holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.” 2 Peter 1:20-21
Jesus left the apostles and especially Peter incharge for a reason, and he promised them that the Holy Spirit will guide them.

Peace

 

[bixntram]

thanks for taking the time to respond. You make some good points, and I’m certainly not equipped at this point to argue with them.

At the end of the day though, if the traditional Catholic (or Protestant, or Orthodox) teaching on eternal damnation and torment is true, then God is a monster. He creates humans with an immortal soul and then sends them to hello - forever.

It’s hardly “perfect justice” when we’re on this earth for such a short time and can get sent to hell - forever! - for whatever sins we might commit. The punishment so vastly exceeds the “crime” that it’s unthinkable to contemplate.

I’ve tried to pray for acceptance, and mostly, I just feel anger. I’m just beating a dead horse here, so I’ll shut up.

Again, thanks for your responses.

 

[Kurisu35712]

So the souls in hell wouldn’t look back and say “oh I should’ve listen to my brother who tried to warn me from sin, or oh I shouldn’t have hurt so many people in my life, etc”?

I’ve always thought that after the second coming when every knee shall bow and every toung confess the truth, because the truth will be revealed to everyone. And all unrepented sinners will see that God has always been threre for them and that they have rejected him and his graces repeatedly without any remorse. “Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?” Mt 25:44 so wouldn’t they have some sort of contrition?

In order to end up in Hell, a soul must die unrepentant. They have chosen willingly to commit sin and commit themselves to their sin. Therefore, they cannot have a sense of contrition, as they do not wish to have contrition. They may be regretful of the punishments they bring upon themselves, and they may in fact lament the fact that they deserve punishment, but their intent will never become a feeling of repentance. While they will certainly understand their sin, they will not reach a point of being remorseful for committing it. As a result, they will not seek God’s Mercy, as they will never seek God. They want release from punishment without the stipulation that would come with that, i.e. turning from oneself and one’s sin towards God and Love. They are unable to do that because they are unwilling to do that.

 

[Kurisu35712]

Where - in God’s name - did Pius X get this from? Ot did he just think it up himself?

Do souls in hell have free will?

I just became a Catholic this Easter (2015). It pains me that I can’t accept this dogma about hell, so I guess I’m a heretic. It pains me that after such a short time, I can’t go along with the dogma of eternal punishment. I think I’m on the way to being an ex-Catholic.

I’ll tell you something, though: I met three new Catholic friends, two long-time Catholics, one a newbie like me. Each one of them is a universalist and doesn’t believe in the concept of eternal punishment in hell - so, at least I’m not alone.

The problem isn’t that you can’t accept the concept of eternal punishment, it’s that your understanding of what leads to eternal punishment is not complete. The eternal punishment of Hell is self-inflicted. It is self-inflicted, self-willed, and self-sustained. It is eternity without God, by one’s own volition. It is punishment because we cannot exist without God, and in setting ourselves up in opposition to God who is Love, we also set ourselves up for failure and disappointment.

But the souls in Hell will not change their minds as we are able to do here. They have already made up their mind, and they will not change it, and do not will to change it. They are those who have made a desire for separation from God not only a choice, but an eternal defining trait. They have chosen to forever be without God. As a result, they are forever reminded that they have turned their backs on Love, and while they are certainly regretful of the pain this choice inflicts, will not go back on it.

 

[Kurisu35712]

thanks for taking the time to respond. You make some good points, and I’m certainly not equipped at this point to argue with them.

At the end of the day though, if the traditional Catholic (or Protestant, or Orthodox) teaching on eternal damnation and torment is true, then God is a monster. He creates humans with an immortal soul and then sends them to hello - forever.

It’s hardly “perfect justice” when we’re on this earth for such a short time and can get sent to hell - forever! - for whatever sins we might commit. The punishment so vastly exceeds the “crime” that it’s unthinkable to contemplate.

I’ve tried to pray for acceptance, and mostly, I just feel anger. I’m just beating a dead horse here, so I’ll shut up.

Again, thanks for your responses.

Again, the problem is that you are viewing Hell as an externally-imposed sentence. Which, to be fair, is how it is frequently described, especially by Protestant denominations, but this is not entirely accurate. Hell is the result of mortal sin. Mortal sin is a conscious, grave, and fully-consented to decision to turn away from God. A soul which dies in this state without repenting consigns itself willingly to Hell.

It is pertinent to note that no soul in Hell is there by accident, and no soul in Hell was forced to go there against its will. It willed itself there. You feel that it is unjust for an individual to be condemned to eternal punishment for committing a temporary offense. That is unjust, and is not what happens in the case of a soul in Hell. That individual did not commit a temporary offense. They committed their eternal soul to a state in opposition to and rejection of God, and by extension, love, peace, joy, happiness, wisdom, grace, etc. etc. The souls in Hell knowingly and willingly rejected all of these things. Had their knowledge not been complete, or had their choice been forced, they are not mortally culpable. The fact remains that, however unjust you may believe their choice and consequence to be, they made it, absurd as such a choice sounds. They made it, and God will not force their acceptance of Him.

 

[Vico]

thanks for taking the time to respond. You make some good points, and I’m certainly not equipped at this point to argue with them.

At the end of the day though, if the traditional Catholic (or Protestant, or Orthodox) teaching on eternal damnation and torment is true, then God is a monster. He creates humans with an immortal soul and then sends them to hello - forever.

It’s hardly “perfect justice” when we’re on this earth for such a short time and can get sent to hell - forever! - for whatever sins we might commit. The punishment so vastly exceeds the “crime” that it’s unthinkable to contemplate.

I’ve tried to pray for acceptance, and mostly, I just feel anger. I’m just beating a dead horse here, so I’ll shut up.

Again, thanks for your responses.

God creates humans with immortal souls and bodies, and grace, and gives each the free will to choose to cooperate with His gift of grace or not.

Anger is from thwarted desire, so what is the desire here? Is the desire that we be given a gift of eternal vision of God, against our free will?

Matt 6 24 No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

 

[bixntram]

“But the souls in Hell will not change their minds as we are able to do here.”

“Will not” implies volition, no? Hell, if I were in hell, I sure would change my mind and ask for God’s love.

I’m sorry to belabor this, and I’m only doing so because I’m having a lot of anguish over it.

Damned souls in hell either have free will or they don’t/ Which is it? The damned are always talked about in the past tense: they MADE their choice - and if they can’t change it, that means they no longer have free will, and if God is punishing souls without free will, that says to me that He’s a cruel monster.

 

[Vico]

“But the souls in Hell will not change their minds as we are able to do here.”

“Will not” implies volition, no? Hell, if I were in hell, I sure would change my mind and ask for God’s love.

I’m sorry to belabor this, and I’m only doing so because I’m having a lot of anguish over it.

Damned souls in hell either have free will or they don’t/ Which is it? The damned are always talked about in the past tense: they MADE their choice - and if they can’t change it, that means they no longer have free will, and if God is punishing souls without free will, that says to me that He’s a cruel monster.

The condemned hate what has happened to them but do not love God. They do not will to love God, rather the wicked: “in their sins they will shun, not what they heretofore desired, but something else, namely the punishment.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. …
1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52