Souls in purgatory

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Can the souls in purgatory pray for themselves? We have been told that they are unable to pray for themselves, but that they can pray for us. Therefore, we are encouraged to pray for them. Is this true Catholic doctrine? If so, where is it found in the CCC?
 
I’m not sure that I’ve found this in the Catechism, but I think it does emerge in the approved Marian aparition messages of Fatima and Lourdes.

I would be curious to hear if this is defined Roman dogma, or perhaps simply pious opinion based on recent revelation.

Grace and peace.
g8rphd said:
Can the souls in purgatory pray for themselves? We have been told that they are unable to pray for themselves, but that they can pray for us. Therefore, we are encouraged to pray for them. Is this true Catholic doctrine? If so, where is it found in the CCC?
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I don’t know the Catechism on this, but the idea of praying for the dead in Purgatory, and the dead in Purgatory praying for the living, is found in the Second Act of the Divine Comedy. As Dante climbs the mountain of Purgatory, he meets people along the way who request that he tell their relatives to continue prayers for them so they may advance closer to Heaven. Therefore, I would think this belief, whether in the Catechism or not, has been held by Catholics since at least the 13th Century.

You may want to see if any of the Early Church Fathers have any writings on the matter - I’m almost certain they must.
 
g8rphd said:
Can the souls in purgatory pray for themselves? We have been told that they are unable to pray for themselves, but that they can pray for us.
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Ott addresses this in his ‘Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma,’ where he states that the belief that the souls in purgatory can pray for others is classed as sententia probabilis, or a theological opinion of probable value. ‘Others’ in this case does include other suffering souls in purgatory, but whether that includes the ability to pray for oneself is not stated. Brilliant work though Ott’s volume may be, consulted by all theologians on a regular basis (!), it should be acknowledged that it is not itself an authoritative document, but ‘merely’ a superlative compendium.
WorkerPriest said:
I’m not sure that I’ve found this in the Catechism, but I think it does emerge in the approved Marian aparition messages of Fatima and Lourdes.

I would be curious to hear if this is defined Roman dogma, or perhaps simply pious opinion based on recent revelation.
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My understanding is that this is indeed sententia pia (pious opinion) inasmuch as private revelation (even when approved, as at Fatima or Lourdes) is not binding upon the faithful unless it is coroborated by specific church teaching - as I’m sure you know, but I mention it in case other readers don’t.
 
Thank you. My main question is whether or not the souls in purgatory can pray for themselves. We were told they cannot. How do we know?
 
g8rphd said:
How do we know?
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That is the fundamental question, isn’t it? 🙂

I think the basic answer is that any church teaching is primarily an extrapolation from public revelation - that is, scripture and previous definitive teachings of the church. Secondarily, it can also make use of non-definitive teaching and/or opinions from other theologians (including ancient authorities like the church fathers) when building a case; and sometimes material contained in private revelation, although the latter cannot be the only source when constructing a definitive teaching. Simple teaching becomes doctrine and perhaps dogmatic or otherwise infallible teaching over time, when it’s undergone proper scrutiny and has been appropriately promulgated.

As to ‘how do we know’ what the souls in purgatory can do in terms of prayer: we don’t. That’s why the subject has not yet risen to the level of official teaching, and remains in the realm of theological opinion.

The volume by Ott that I quoted above states that the ability of the souls in purgatory to pray for others - including other souls in purgatory, but perhaps not for oneself, since that is not specified - was recorded at the provincial synods of Vienna (1858) and Utrecht (1865). That in and of itself means only that a theological opinion was expressed by the synods, and this does not rise to authoritative or universal teaching.

Hope this helps to some degree. If I’m misunderstanding your questions I apologise.:o
 
Thank you for your excellent and careful answers to my question. This site is truly a blessing.
 
Very well said.

This sparked my imagination, which is never really safe for a Lutheran… 😉

I began thinking of the ways in which prayer is employed in the Scriptures, and the way it seems to be ordered… primarily, as one praying for another. In the Eucharist, one consecrates, and the others receive the gift; likewise with Absolution, one offers to the other, who receives the gift; likewise in Baptism. Peter is in prison, and is freed by the prayers of others on his behalf. Paul prays for the people aboard his ship, who are saved by his intervention. Moses prays for the people, and God refrains from destroying them. Even the Lord’s Prayer is a communal prayer (Our Father… give us… lead us not… deliver us…) The examples seem amazingly lopsided, as if the pattern of ordered prayer is established by God in the life of His people, as primarily directed toward the neighbor (much the way Lutherans would identify the ordering of good works, as fundamentally directed toward the neighbor and not the self.)

That leaves me wondering, that if in this world, we can pray for ourselves (for example, “Lord have mercy on me, a sinner,”) while receiving the gifts of God through His established Means of Grace, what happens to a soul that finds itself apart from the Means of Grace, and yet in need of them? Such a soul would almost certainly be wholely dependent on the prayers and intercessions of others, since they are not in a position to directly receive the Eucharist nor Absolution. It’s almost as if God has written such an order into the wiring of all creation, pointing to this proper ordering of intercessory prayer as fully intended toward the neighbor, and not toward the self. In such an ordering, it would seem that any soul which found itself in Purgatory, would by necessity have no meaningful recourse to pray for itself, but be wholely dependent on the prayers of others for the grace of Christ.

Dangerous thing, when Lutherans get speculative… I’ll try to keep that to a minimum. 😊
Ocarm said:
That is the fundamental question, isn’t it? 🙂

I think the basic answer is that any church teaching is primarily an extrapolation from public revelation - that is, scripture and previous definitive teachings of the church. Secondarily, it can also make use of non-definitive teaching and/or opinions from other theologians (including ancient authorities like the church fathers) when building a case; and sometimes material contained in private revelation, although the latter cannot be the only source when constructing a definitive teaching. Simple teaching becomes doctrine and perhaps dogmatic or otherwise infallible teaching over time, when it’s undergone proper scrutiny and has been appropriately promulgated.

As to ‘how do we know’ what the souls in purgatory can do in terms of prayer: we don’t. That’s why the subject has not yet risen to the level of official teaching, and remains in the realm of theological opinion.

The volume by Ott that I quoted above states that the ability of the souls in purgatory to pray for others - including other souls in purgatory, but perhaps not for oneself, since that is not specified - was recorded at the provincial synods of Vienna (1858) and Utrecht (1865). That in and of itself means only that a theological opinion was expressed by the synods, and this does not rise to authoritative or universal teaching.

Hope this helps to some degree. If I’m misunderstanding your questions I apologise.:o
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g8rphd said:
Thank you. My main question is whether or not the souls in purgatory can pray for themselves. We were told they cannot. How do we know?
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There is no teaching that I know of that prohibits a soul from praying in Purgatory. However, the soul in purgatory is assured a place in Heaven and it is expiating the temporal punishment that remained at the time of death. The soul understands this as a consequence of its particular judgment before Almighty God. So it would not pray to shorten its own deserved time in purgatory. Understanding its offense against God, it would not desire to eliminate its own suffering until it is completely purged.

The church has provided from its treasures the opportunity to earn an indulgence by the living for the souls of the dead and that could satisfy a souls time. Likewise, it would be a work of mercy for a soul in purgatory to pray for other souls. But not for itself.
 
I’m going to make an uneducated guess - so please don’t consider this of reliable value or having come from Catholic Theologic teachings.
The Poor Souls - although they are suffering - have reached the point where they know they will - THANK GOD - attain Heaven and see the Face of God. What a joy in that thought. In short - they’ve made it! Their souls have been judged by God as worthy but must be cleansed. Who knows the reason why they can’t help themselves? Maybe, because souls have so many chances on earth to do so, which they don’t use or overlook. Only God - and Our Lady - and the souls themselves know why.
This is a mystery.

But, in my opinion, that gift of being judged worthy of Heaven makes them almost saints - while not in Heaven yet. The Saints in Heaven intercede for us by reason of our prayers yet have no need of prayers any longer. Perhaps, part of Purgatory is being purged for all the times souls could have prayed for their own salvation while here on earth. What matters to me is that a prayer to help the “Poor Souls” who may not be able to help themselves - not only relieves their suffering but makes friends for me in Heaven.

Can you imagine - praying for the “Souls in Purgatory” - whether we know particular ones or not - we’re making many friends who may be in Heaven when we can no longer help ourselves. DEFINITELY NOT the reason to pray for the Souls - just pray for them out of kindness and mercy - whether you know them or not. It’s a beautiful thought - even if not the most reliably theological one. And don’t forget to pray for the suffering / dying souls of the world.
 
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