Souls of clones?

[1ke]

Wildgraywolf:

My point is that in cloning there is no conception at all. In every other instance genetic material comes from sperm and ovum; thus fertilization/conception and a new person. Cloning is creating a copy of what already has been created.

The question is whether or not a clone has a soul. And, you are excluding them based solely on your definition of “conception”. That is why I said it is a narrow definition.

Of course the normal way is for sperm and ova to meet inside the woman. But, in the case where life is created in some other way, a soul *is not * precluded merely because of the method of conception. I disagree that conception does not occur. It occurs in a way different from the normal process.

Wildgraywolf:

I would point out though that God made Adam a male and Eve a female with the command them to be fruitfull and multiply. Clearly God desires humanity to reproduce bisexually. I think if God wanted us to clone ourselves (reproduce asexually) we’d all be dandelions or amoebas.

Of course cloning is immoral, as I stated in my original answer.

That was not relevant to whether or not a soul is given to a clone.

 

[Brendan]

First of all,

the Soul is what animates otherwise lifeless matter. You can tell if a material creature has a soul if it is alive or not.

Is it made of matter and is alive, then it has a soul. This is true from amoebas, plants, animals and humans. Humans are unique because our soul is spiritual and immortal.

If you want to know if a clone has a soul, check to see if it’s breathing and has a pulse.

Secondly, since it is the soul that animates the body, it is a one to one relationship. One soul is animates one body. If there are two living bodies present that means two souls.

One does not make a ‘copy’ of a soul by coping the genetic structure. There is no ‘soul gene’. It is de fide teaching of the Catholic Church that souls are unique and made by God out of nothing. To say otherwise is to deny Church teaching.

Human souls are also unique because they are rational. A human has the capability of reason, and this faculty is provided by the soul.

So, in short:

If a clone is living, it has a soul.

This soul would have been created by God for that particular body.

If the soul is rational, it is a human person.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

1ke:

The question is whether or not a clone has a soul. And, you are excluding them based solely on your definition of “conception”. That is why I said it is a narrow definition.

Of course the normal way is for sperm and ova to meet inside the woman. But, in the case where life is created in some other way, a soul *is not *precluded merely because of the method of conception. I disagree that conception does not occur. It occurs in a way different from the normal process.

Well, as far as conception goes it only happens one way. Cloning is not a true conception, but I’ll grant you that it is an “artifical conception” of some kind.

I do believe that a human clone would have a soul, but I’m not certian if it would be of the same “quality” or “nature” as a person created through human conception. I say this because when God created man; He created man in His own image and likeness and gave us a method of replicating ourselves. Through this bisexual process God grants humans the privilege of co-creating a new human person with Him - a clone would be a biological copy of an already existing human. Or perhaps an after image or shadow of an original biological process resulting from the direct cooperation of man and God.

The Catholic Church teaches that human life begins at conception, that presumably would include God’s creation of the human soul. Would God give a new human soul to a copy of somone who already has one? Well, as far as I know there is no implicit or explicit indication in Scriptute or Tradidion that He would or wouldn’t. I think the only thing we can be sure about is that at the moment of conception; God provides the human soul.

1ke:

Of course cloning is immoral, as I stated in my original answer.

Agreed.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Montie Claunch:

Does a clone (and any other kind of “Test Tube Baby” that isn’t concived in the normal way) have a soul?
Is cloneing (and all that kind of stuff) moral?
Thanks and God bless.

This relates to the Brave New World book we’re reading in my science fiction literature class. It’s about a new society full of clones and sin to our standards. It is a wierd book.

 

[Brendan]

Wildgraywolf:

I do believe that a human clone would have a soul, but I’m not certian if it would be of the same “quality” or “nature” as a person created through human conception.

If the clone is alive, it has a soul. If the clone is rational, it has a human soul.

I say this because when God created man; He created man in His own image and likeness and gave us a method of replicating ourselves. Through this bisexual process God grants humans the privilege of co-creating a new human person with Him - a clone would be a biological copy of an already existing human. Or perhaps an after image or shadow of an original biological process resulting from the direct cooperation of man and God.

Adam and Eve were not created through a bisexual process, does that mean they did not have the right to co-create Cain and Able?

The Catholic Church teaches that human life begins at conception, that presumably would include God’s creation of the human soul. Would God give a new human soul to a copy of somone who already has one?

How would this clone already have a soul?? Cloning copies a person’s genetic structure, nothing else. Do you really think there is a gene for ‘soul’

If there is, do indentical twins share the same soul, as they are genetic copies of each other as well.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Brendan:

If the clone is alive, it has a soul. If the clone is rational, it has a human soul.

Well you sound certain, I’m not… The Catholic Church teaches that:

**1711 **Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (GS 15 § 2).

***2319 ***Every human life, from the moment of conception until death, is sacred because the human person has been willed for its own sake in the image and likeness of the living and holy God.

**2270 ***Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life. *

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.

By conception the Catholic Church means: **1 a **(1) : the process of becoming pregnant involving fertilization or implantation or both (2) : EMBRYO, FETUS

Brendan:

Adam and Eve were not created through a bisexual process…

Agreed, however by thier creation God also began the human bisexual process.

Brendan:

…does that mean they did not have the right to co-create Cain and Able?

Of course they did… God commanded them to be fruitfull and multiply…

Brendan:

How would this clone already have a soul?? Cloning copies a person’s genetic structure, nothing else.

I think you misread my statement…

Brendan:

If there is, do indentical twins share the same soul, as they are genetic copies of each other as well.

I addressed this earlier in the thread.

 

[thistle]

Wildgraywolf:

Well you sound certain, I’m not… The Catholic Church teaches that:

**1711 **Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (GS 15 § 2).

***2319 ***Every human life, from the moment of conception until death, is sacred because the human person has been willed for its own sake in the image and likeness of the living and holy God.

**2270 **Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.

By conception the Catholic Church means: **1 a **(1) : the process of becoming pregnant involving fertilization or implantation or both (2) : EMBRYO, FETUS

Agreed, however by thier creation God also began the human bisexual process.

Of course they did… God commanded them to be fruitfull and multiply…

I think you misread my statement…

I addressed this earlier in the thread.

The question if clones have souls was asked and answered in Ask An Apologist and Michelle Arnold’s answer was:

****All living things have souls. If a clone were a human being, it would have a human soul.

 

[Vanny]

Yes, I believe a clone would have a soul!
Now I am adamatley against human cloning for any reason -reproductive or otherwise, and I hope there is never a cloned baby born(I hope God doesn’t allow it)! But He may, given the dominion we’ve been given. It’s up to us never to go down that road! That’s why I’m 100% against human cloning. (I read Brave new world in both a fiction of the Future class in school and recently re-read it- we’re heading there!)
But if one IS born- I believe that clone would have a soul, like all the rest of us.
Otherwise, the pro-abortion side would be right in being able to create them, use them for spare parts and get rid of them!
They could use the argument “Well, they don’t have a soul!”

 

[Wildgraywolf]

thistle:

The question if clones have souls was asked and answered in Ask An Apologist and Michelle Arnold’s answer was:

All living things have souls. If a clone were a human being, it would have a human soul.

Well, with all due respect to Michelle Arnold’s post there’s nothing there by way of explanation, reasoning or enlightenment…

As I indicated throughout this thread, I’m certain that a clone would have a soul; I am simply uncertian that it would be an immortal human one.

 

[thistle]

Wildgraywolf:

Well, with all due respect to Michelle Arnold’s post there’s nothing there by way of explanation, reasoning or enlightenment…

Its a direct answer to the question. As a trained Apologist are you saying she would give an answer that contradicts the Church’s position?

 

[Wildgraywolf]

thistle:

Its a direct answer to the question. As a trained Apologist are you saying she would give an answer that contradicts the Church’s position?

Thistle, it is not my intention to be unreasonable or disrespectfull… If the Church has a positon I’d want to know what it is… I am always open to correction…

 

[thistle]

Wildgraywolf:

Thistle, it is not my intention to be unreasonable or disrespectfull… If the Church has a positon I’d want to know what it is… I am always open to correction…

I’m simply saying that Michelle Arnold must be stating the Church position otherwise she would not be much of an Apologist, and I happen to think she is a good one.
The Church position is that all living things have a soul. Plants and animals have a mortal soul which dies when the plant or animal dies. Human beings have an immortal soul. Even though the concept of cloning is repugnant, a clone would be a human being and consequently would have a soul.

 

[Michelle_Arnold]

That all living things have souls is basic theology. Plants and animals have material souls that cease to exist when they die. (As a further distinction, plants have vegetative souls and animals have sensitive souls.) Human beings and angels have spiritual, rational souls. Angels are pure spirit while humans are embodied spirits. Because the human soul is spirit, it survives the death of the body.

To date, clones have not been human beings, so they would not have human souls. If were determined that a clone *was *a human being, it would have a human soul. (By definition, human beings have human souls.) And, to answer the original question, test-tube babies do indeed have human souls but they are not clones.

 

[Therese_Martin]

Note:

This thread is now closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.