"Souls will not be equal in beatitude in heaven"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Trevor_Stamm
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Trevor_Stamm

Guest
“Souls will not be equal in beatitude in heaven” from this article, catholic.com/quickquestions/is-heaven-a-meritocracy

Question is, is this dogma, de fide, required to believe, etc? Would like to read the source of this statement, if it’s backed by scripture or any councils.

Also, how is this reconciled with the parable of the workers in the vineyard?

Pax
 
It does not really matter I think. Therese of Liesuex (I think said this)…when we go to heaven, think of our selves as a container…some will be great urns and some as a thimble…God’s glory will fill up to the brim.

I like that analogy for I am a little soul and there are many who are great souls…God’s Justice should not be measured by our ideas and much of that is modernism…the idea all are equal because it simply not true.
 
Trevor_Stamm said:
“Souls will not be equal in beatitude in heaven” from this article, catholic.com/quickquestions/is-heaven-a-meritocracy

Question is, is this dogma, de fide, required to believe, etc? Would like to read the source of this statement, if it’s backed by scripture or any councils.

Also, how is this reconciled with the parable of the workers in the vineyard?

Pax
Click to expand...
This is a question “de lana caprina”, or else, discussing the gender of the Angels.
Suppose that you have 100 pots, all with different capacities, all filled to the brim.
No one is equal and all are full.
So it is Heaven.
Pardon the terrible metaphor.
 
Pfaffenhoffen said:
This is a question “de lana caprina”, or else, discussing the gender of the Angels.
Suppose that you have 100 pots, all with different capacities, all filled to the brim.
No one is equal and all are full.
So it is Heaven.
Pardon the terrible metaphor.
Click to expand...
Actually you hit it right on the head. I completely understood and absorbed it the second I finished reading it. Spot on! 👍

My variation…
We all do different things in life.
Some great, others little things.
But bottom line, we all do something. 😉
 
Trevor_Stamm said:
“Souls will not be equal in beatitude in heaven” from this article, catholic.com/quickquestions/is-heaven-a-meritocracy

Question is, is this dogma, de fide, required to believe, etc? Would like to read the source of this statement, if it’s backed by scripture or any councils.

Also, how is this reconciled with the parable of the workers in the vineyard?

Pax
Click to expand...
Yes, it is De Fide. The Council of Florence states ‘**Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains. **’

The Council of Trent states ‘**CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose [Page 49] living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema. **’
 
Zacdecat said:
It does not really matter I think. Therese of Liesuex (I think said this)…when we go to heaven, think of our selves as a container…some will be great urns and some as a thimble…God’s glory will fill up to the brim.

I like that analogy for I am a little soul and there are many who are great souls…God’s Justice should not be measured by our ideas and much of that is modernism…the idea all are equal because it simply not true.
Click to expand...
St Therese of Liseux explained this idea in a way I could accept, before I thought God was being unfair, now I know otherwise. 🙂

O glorious Saint Therese, whom Almighty God has raised up to aid and counsel mankind, I implore your Miraculous Intercession.
So powerful are you in obtaining every need of body and soul our Holy Mother Church proclaims you a “Prodigy of Miracles…the Greatest Saint of Modern Times.” Now I fervently beseech you to answer my petition (mention specifics here) and to carry out your promises of spending Heaven doing good upon the earth…of letting fall from Heaven a Shower of Roses.
Henceforth, dear Little Flower, I will fulfill your plea “to be made known everywhere” and I will never cease to lead others to Jesus through you.
Amen.
 
Zacdecat said:
It does not really matter I think. Therese of Liesuex (I think said this)…when we go to heaven, think of our selves as a container…some will be great urns and some as a thimble…God’s glory will fill up to the brim.

I like that analogy for I am a little soul and there are many who are great souls…God’s Justice should not be measured by our ideas and much of that is modernism…the idea all are equal because it simply not true.
Click to expand...
Yes, I remember reading this in her book. Though, if memory serves me right, it was she that a concern about it, and I believe it was at a very young age (5ish), one of her sister’s made the illustration of urns to her and she understood.
jmj1984 said:
Yes, it is De Fide. The Council of Florence states 'Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains. ’

The Council of Trent states 'CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose [Page 49] living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema. ’
Click to expand...
Thank you. In light of this, how should one interpret the parable of the workers in the vineyard then? If it even applies.
 
Trevor_Stamm said:
Yes, I remember reading this in her book. Though, if memory serves me right, it was she that a concern about it, and I believe it was at a very young age (5ish), one of her sister’s made the illustration of urns to her and she understood.
Click to expand...
Indeed, still the credit goes to her for writing it in her ‘diary’.
Trevor_Stamm said:
Thank you. In light of this, how should one interpret the parable of the workers in the vineyard then? If it even applies.
Click to expand...
We all receive the beatific vision, so the reward does not differ in kind but merely in extent. It would be wrong to merely have a superficial look at the two and say they contradict each other, it is entirely true that a person who has converted to the true faith late in life can equal or even surpass the works and reward of a person who has been a Catholic all their life. The length of time is not the issue, rather the merit is the issue.

Applying it to the parable, a worker could come towards the end of the day and work so hard he does as much work as someone who had been working there all day.

More importantly however the parable addresses the issue of ungreatfulness on our part, the workers in the parable complained as if they had some right to determine who their employer should pay and how much, they did not. In the same way our salvation is not a right but a free gift of God given to whom he wills, when he wills, how he wills, we cannot demand of it as it was a right nor complain that others who were notorious sinners are in fact saved and with us in heaven because God can give the gift of salvation to whomsoever he wishes, if they repent (enter the vineyard) they have as much right to the gift as we do.

Hope that helps?
 
Interesting, never heard this for all the time I was RC. I know in the East we pray FOR saints during the Divine Liturgy, knowing that even though they are in heaven, the experience of heaven is different and we pray that they may be brought closer to the perfection of God.
 
Mmm, Christ described heaven having “many mansions”. For one person, a cozy little cottage or a hut could be a mansion, while for others, their mansion might be a big rambly thing that looks like the kind of thing Charles Addams and Mervyn Peake might have designed when they were feeling bored. I guess we’ll find out what we’ve earned when we get to the other side. For the number of times I’ve bitten my tongue and prayed for patience for me and for my crabby, disrespectful and at times abusive customers, I’ve wondered if I’ve earned the Addams-Peake model of mansion. 😃
 
jmj1984 said:
We all receive the beatific vision, so the reward does not differ in kind but merely in extent. It would be wrong to merely have a superficial look at the two and say they contradict each other, it is entirely true that a person who has converted to the true faith late in life can equal or even surpass the works and reward of a person who has been a Catholic all their life. The length of time is not the issue, rather the merit is the issue.

Applying it to the parable, a worker could come towards the end of the day and work so hard he does as much work as someone who had been working there all day.

More importantly however the parable addresses the issue of ungreatfulness on our part, the workers in the parable complained as if they had some right to determine who their employer should pay and how much, they did not. In the same way our salvation is not a right but a free gift of God given to whom he wills, when he wills, how he wills, we cannot demand of it as it was a right nor complain that others who were notorious sinners are in fact saved and with us in heaven because God can give the gift of salvation to whomsoever he wishes, if they repent (enter the vineyard) they have as much right to the gift as we do.

Hope that helps?
Click to expand...
Yes, it does. Though I see that it is a lesson to us not to question God’s love to those who want to repent, no matter how late they arrive, but also all are given salvation to those that seek Christ by means of the Church. When I heard this at first, I thought that all are given an equal share in the beatific vision, though I had issues with this. Such as, it would be hard to fathom that say the thief on the cross was going to share in the same amount of graces as say, Our Holy Queen or St. Peter. Glad to see my concerns were valid.
 
“Behold, I come at once, and my reward is with me, and I shall give to every person according to his work.” Rev. 22:12

God is most just and will not bestow glory to us in equal measure, for that would be unjust for those who have served him so well, as did the Apostles. I am certain that nobody will be jealous of another’s glory, but will rejoice to see them honored.

1 Cor. 12:26 … if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
 
Sirach2 said:
“Behold, I come at once, and my reward is with me, and I shall give to every person according to his work.” Rev. 22:12

God is most just and will not bestow glory to us in equal measure, for that would be unjust for those who have served him so well, as did the Apostles. I am certain that nobody will be jealous of another’s glory, but will rejoice to see them honored.

1 Cor. 12:26 … if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
Click to expand...
This is true. Although the Parable of the workers in the vineyard may point to a different thing where workers who did not work as much as those who came early got the same pay.
 
Maybe it means the “pay” is eternal life, even though one sneaks in the door with a last minute conversion. I don’t get the sense of equal glory, though. 😉
 
Just as there are various degrees of perfection on earth to manifest the abundant perfections of God, so the same occurs in heaven. It is truly just for someone who has been bought to a great degree of sanctity to receive a greater share in heaven. All will receive the beatific vision however. No man can complain about his lot as it is gratuitously supernatural that he should even attain to such a state.

It is interesting also that the quotation earlier makes reference to those who die in mortal sin or simply in original sin, will both descend to hell, but with different punishments. It is obvious that those only in original sin are the infants that have died without receiving baptism, but with less punishment (which can only be the deprivation of the beatific vision which is not due to them anyway). But that´s a question for another day…
 
Trevor_Stamm said:
Yes, it does. Though I see that it is a lesson to us not to question God’s love to those who want to repent, no matter how late they arrive, but also all are given salvation to those that seek Christ by means of the Church. When I heard this at first, I thought that all are given an equal share in the beatific vision, though I had issues with this. Such as, it would be hard to fathom that say the thief on the cross was going to share in the same amount of graces as say, Our Holy Queen or St. Peter. Glad to see my concerns were valid.
Click to expand...
Thats an apt paraphrase, glad I could be of help.
 
Sometimes I ask myself if everybody is totally satisfied and happy in Heaven. I mean, would the little flowers who are not be in equal beatitude be less happy or feel less when they are in heaven?
These are one of the promises made to St. Bridget, for people who contemplate the prayers he revealed to her:
1.He is assured of being joined to the supreme Choir of Angels.
  1. Whoever teaches these Prayers to another, will have continuous joy and merit which will endure eternally
I ask myself, will the ones who did not pray them and therefore are not being joined to the supreme Choirs of Angels, feel not as happy as the ones who are there? And about the 2th promise: will the ones who didn’t teach these prayers not experience continuous joy in heaven?
 
Woman1987 said:
Sometimes I ask myself if everybody is totally satisfied and happy in Heaven. I mean, would the little flowers who are not be in equal beatitude be less happy or feel less when they are in heaven?
These are one of the promises made to St. Bridget, for people who contemplate the prayers he revealed to her:
1.He is assured of being joined to the supreme Choir of Angels.
  1. Whoever teaches these Prayers to another, will have continuous joy and merit which will endure eternally
I ask myself, will the ones who did not pray them and therefore are not being joined to the supreme Choirs of Angels, feel not as happy as the ones who are there? And about the 2th promise: will the ones who didn’t teach these prayers not experience continuous joy in heaven?
Click to expand...
In heaven we will be perfectly filled with God’s love. There will be no room for discontent.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top