Sources of the Quran

[cestusdei]

What are the sources of the Quran? On another thread I surmised that perhaps Muhammed picked some ideas up from the gnostics or other heretical groups. That seems likely. He says an angel spoke to him, but we have only his word for it. Since it wasn’t written down until years after he died we don’t even know if the current version contains all the suras or if some were omitted. We do know that some were destroyed since all the variants were burned. That means there were variant versions circulating. A few have survived on the qt. Of course there are also the famous satanic verses where Muhammed claims he was deceived by the devil to add falsehoods to the Quran. What other verses might be satanically inspired? Some of the Quran seems influenced by pagan thought that predates Muhammed. I would be interested if anyone knows a good book that deals with these questions from an objective point of view.

 

[JimG]

I have been curious about the same thing. There seems to be a lack of historical, literary, textual, and source analysis for the Quran.

 

[cute2904]

answering-islam.org/Silas/borrowing.htm

maybe this link help a little bit about our curiosity.

 

[Reuben_J]

Just some of the possibilities that I can think of.

The Quran’s understanding of Christianity of its era (600 ad) is erroneous and superficial. God could not be mistaken and if the information in the Quran is anything to go by, then it must be attributed to Muhammad’s own. Where did he probably gather that information? Initially it must be mainly from his wife Khadija, and Waraqqa, Khadija’s first cousin who was an Ebionite Christian pastor. The Ebionites were heretical Christians whose teaching may find its way to the Quran, especially regarding the non-divinity of Jesus. Khadija and Waraqqa were his main supporters in his youthful life not only for their encouragement that the Quranic revelations were from God, but support in the Arabic tribal society and his position as a businessman. This explained the friendly attitude towards the Christians in his early days. This friendliness made a 360 degrees about turn when Muhammad was in Medina after both Khadija and Waraqqa were out of the scene after they died. Muhammad was then stronger and more independent and so was the tone of the Quranic revelation then.

 

[r.gonzales]

cestusdei:

On another thread I surmised that perhaps Muhammed picked some ideas up from the gnostics or other heretical groups. That seems likely.

speculation and conjecture, no real evidence to support such claims.

cestusdei:

He says an angel spoke to him, but we have only his word for it.

as well as the testimonies of his companions, who number in the thousands.

cestusdei:

Since it wasn’t written down until years after he died we don’t even know if the current version contains all the suras or if some were omitted. We do know that some were destroyed since all the variants were burned. That means there were variant versions circulating.

the Quran was being recorded by scribes as it was being revealed - over a period of 23 years. the Quran we have today is the complete Quran as was revealed, as is testified to by historical records found in authentic hadeeths and other various narrations originating from prophet muhammad’s companions. as for those “variants”, as well as other issues regarding the Quran’s preservation, perhaps you should read this book, an introduction to the sciences of the Qur’aan by abu ammaar yasir qadhi - who has a masters from the islamic university of madeenah and is currently working on a ph.d. from yale (if i’m not mistaken).

cestusdei:

Of course there are also the famous satanic verses where Muhammed claims he was deceived by the devil to add falsehoods to the Quran. What other verses might be satanically inspired?

the report relating this story is weak and has been refuted in the book, “sirat al-nabi and the orientalists” by muhammad mohar ali. there is also a fatwa found on islam-qa.com containing the refutation of this story made by ibn katheer and others: 63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=4135&dgn=4

 

[jcaz]

cestusdei:

Some of the Quran seems influenced by pagan thought that predates Muhammed.

Now ain’t that the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[ex-mormon]

r.gonzales:

speculation and conjecture, no real evidence to support such claims.

as well as the testimonies of his companions, who number in the thousands.

the Quran was being recorded by scribes as it was being revealed - over a period of 23 years. the Quran we have today is the complete Quran as was revealed, as is testified to by historical records found in authentic hadeeths and other various narrations originating from prophet muhammad’s companions. as for those “variants”, as well as other issues regarding the Quran’s preservation, perhaps you should read this book, <A href="http://“An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur'aan : (Abu Ammaar Yasir Qadhi)” target=_blank>an introduction to the sciences of the Qur’aan by abu ammaar yasir qadhi - who has a masters from the islamic university of madeenah and is currently working on a ph.d. from yale (if i’m not mistaken).

the report relating this story is weak and has been refuted in the book, “sirat al-nabi and the orientalists” by muhammad mohar ali. there is also a fatwa found on islam-qa.com containing the refutation of this story made by ibn katheer and others: 63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=4135&dgn=4

Replace Muhammad with Joseph Smith and Quran with Book Of Mormon and you have got a winner.
ex-mo

 

[r.gonzales]

ex-mormon:

Replace Muhammad with Joseph Smith and Quran with Book Of Mormon and you have got a winner.

the comparison between the two aren’t even close… try galaxies apart.

 

[r.gonzales]

Reuben J:

Just some of the possibilities that I can think of.

The Quran’s understanding of Christianity of its era (600 ad) is erroneous and superficial. God could not be mistaken and if the information in the Quran is anything to go by, then it must be attributed to Muhammad’s own. Where did he probably gather that information? Initially it must be mainly from his wife Khadija, and Waraqqa, Khadija’s first cousin who was an Ebionite Christian pastor. The Ebionites were heretical Christians whose teaching may find its way to the Quran, especially regarding the non-divinity of Jesus. Khadija and Waraqqa were his main supporters in his youthful life not only for their encouragement that the Quranic revelations were from God, but support in the Arabic tribal society and his position as a businessman. This explained the friendly attitude towards the Christians in his early days. This friendliness made a 360 degrees about turn when Muhammad was in Medina after both Khadija and Waraqqa were out of the scene after they died. Muhammad was then stronger and more independent and so was the tone of the Quranic revelation then.

talk about misinformation based on speculation and conjecture…

 

[cute2904]

r.gonzales:

the comparison between the two aren’t even close… try galaxies apart.

very close. both are cults. what else you expect?

 

[ex-mormon]

r.gonzales:

the comparison between the two aren’t even close… try galaxies apart.

Islamic And Mormonism Similarities

Similarities between Joseph Smith and Muhammad:

Both were visited by an angel. Joseph Smith was visited by the angel “Moroni” and Muhammad by Gabriel. Galatians 1:6-9 says, “I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is *really *not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.”

Both were given visions.

Both were told that no true religion existed on the earth. In the published account of his life, Joseph Smith related that he became very disturbed when he was a youth because of the “strife among the different denominations,” and this “cry and tumult” led him to ask God “which of all the sects were right — and which I should join.” He was told that he must “join none of them, for they were all wrong… that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt…” (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith 2:8-19) N. J. Dawood says that Mohammed was also concerned with the fact that the Jews and Christians had “divided themselves into schismatic sects.” In the scriptures given by Mohammed, we read: “Yet the Sects are divided concerning Jesus… Truly, the unbelievers are in the grossest error.” (The Koran, translated by N. J. Dawood, Surah 19, p. 34) In Surah 30, page 190, this warning appears: “Do not split up your religion into sects, each exulting in its own beliefs.” In Surah 3, page 398, we read: “The only true faith in Allah’s sight is Islam. Those to whom the Scriptures * were given disagreed among themselves through jealousy only after knowledge had been given them.”

Both were to restore the long lost faith as the one true religion. Islam makes claim that Adam and Abraham were Muslims, a claim that is as ridiculous as it is undocumented from either history or archaeology. Mormons make the unsubstantiated claim that the church in the first century were Mormon.

Both wrote a book inspired by God.

Both claimed to be illiterate or uneducated and used this as proof the book was inspired. “How could an illiterate man write the Koran or the Book of Mormon?” Joseph Smith is claimed to have only grade three education.

Both claimed the Bible was lost, altered, corrupted and unreliable.

Both claimed their holy book was the most correct and perfect book on earth.

Both claimed that their new “Bible” was based upon a record stored in heaven. With Islam, it is the “mother book” that resides in heaven with God. With Mormonism, it is the golden Nephi plates that the angel Moroni took back to heaven.

Both claim that the version we have in our hands today are identical to what the prophet revealed and that parts are not lost, altered and corrupted. Of course the proof that these claims are invalid is found in two books. The Mormon claim is proven false by a book called “3913 Changes to Book of Mormon” by Sandra Tanner. The Islamic claim is proven false by a book (In Arabic language) called, “Making Easy the Readings of What Has Been Sent Down” by Muhammad Fahd Khaaruun. Both books show that the copy of the book of Mormon and the Koran used today is different from what was originally used when each religion was started.

more…*

 

[ex-mormon]

…continued

Both claimed to be a final prophet of God.

Both claimed they were persecuted because of their pure faith.

Both were polygamists who had many wives.

Both borrowed from paganism/polytheism. Muhammad incorporated that polytheistic moon god called “Allah” and “Allah’s three daughters” into Islam. Basically Muhammad chose Allah from within 350 known gods that were worshipped in Arabia and proclaimed the moon god to be the greatest and only God. Smith borrowed from a doctrine called “pyramidology” and the Masons and other magic systems.

Both received “after the fact corrective revelations” from God. Muhammad retracted the Satanic verses and Smith retracted his divine order mandating polygamy. But for Mormons it there is even a closer parallel. Sounds exactly like Muhammad and his satanic verses.
“As many false reports have been circulated respecting the following work, and also many unlawful measures taken by evil designing persons to destroy me, and also the work, I would inform you that I translated by the gift and power of God, and caused to be written, one hundred and sixteen pages, the which I took from the Book of Lehi… which said account, some person or persons have stolen and kept from me, notwithstanding my utmost exertions to recover it again — and being commanded of the Lord that I should not translate the same over again, for Satan had put it into their hearts to tempt the Lord their God, by altering the words, that they did read contrary from that which I translated and caused to be written; and if I should bring forth the same words again, or, in other words, if I should translate the same over, they would publish that which they had stolen, and Satan would stir up the hearts of this generation, that they might not receive this work: but behold, the Lord said unto me, I will not suffer that Satan shall accomplish his evil design in this thing: therefore thou shalt translate from the plates of Nephi, until ye come to that which ye have translated… I will shew unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the Devil.” (Book of Mormon, 1830 edition, Preface)

Immediately after the death of Muhammad and Smith, a fight broke out from among the “faithful converts” as to who would succeed Muhammad and Smith. Both groups were plunged into irreparable division that has endured ever since.

Islam and Mormonism both have squabbles among themselves as to who is the one true splinter group of their prophet!
Mormons, contrary to “baptize the dead” by gathering genealogies of all men who lived on earth. This contradicts the Bible: “But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.” Tit 3:9 While the Bible says avoid focusing in Genealogies, the Mormon church makes it their central focus of mission. Mormons have even been criticized for baptizing, by proxy, the Jews had died in Nazi Holocaust camps. When lists of genealogies are collected, living Mormons are baptized, on behalf of, those on the lists, who have already died. In this way, Mormons view every man who lived, as being Mormons. In the same way Muslims claim that all men are born Muslims and when they learn the truth of Christianity, they are apostatizing from their first faith. Muslims re-write history by proclaiming Jesus and the Apostles were Muslims in a similar way Mormons baptize Jews (for example) with the expectation they will be Mormons in the next life. Yet gathering of large genealogical lists no more makes dead people Mormons in the next life, than re-writing history makes Jesus into a Muslim.

Both the Islam and Mormon religions have those who follow the “original doctrine” of the founding leaders and like these founding leaders, are violent, polygamists, and have revelations justifying their evil actions.

Galaxies apart?

ex-mo

 

[flameburns623]

cestusdei:

What are the sources of the Quran? On another thread I surmised that perhaps Muhammed picked some ideas up from the gnostics or other heretical groups. That seems likely. He says an angel spoke to him, but we have only his word for it. Since it wasn’t written down until years after he died we don’t even know if the current version contains all the suras or if some were omitted. We do know that some were destroyed since all the variants were burned. That means there were variant versions circulating. A few have survived on the qt. Of course there are also the famous satanic verses where Muhammed claims he was deceived by the devil to add falsehoods to the Quran. What other verses might be satanically inspired? Some of the Quran seems influenced by pagan thought that predates Muhammed. I would be interested if anyone knows a good book that deals with these questions from an objective point of view.

Our Muslim friends will scream bloody murder about the website but AnsweringIslam has a page with numerous links to just this question. Put on your hearing protection to muffle the screams, but here’s the main link:

answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Sources/index.html

Here’s a source which is somewhat incendiary in tone (as one would expect from Dr. Robert Morey–also known for his Catholic-baiting) but seems to offer good information nonetheless:

bible.ca/islam/islam-koran-fairy-tales-dr-morey.htm

A more-scholarly article, written in a much more agreeable tone:

truthnet.org/islam/Qurangil4.html

Another very-good article which focuses on how the text of the Qur’an was collected:

message4muslims.org.uk/Quran/JamalQuran/03missiongverses.htm

My chief caveat in listing these (a google search turned up many more but these are a good start, and will keep our Muslim friends occupied with rebutting them for days) is that they are all published by folks obviously interested in missionising Muslims. One needs to recognize that almost all ‘anti’- literature suffers from a similar problem: it’s producers have an ingrained bias against their subject and an ulterior motive behind their work, no matter how thoughtful they may write about their subject. This does not invalidate their efforts but it suggests that one should be wary that such sources may entirely misunderstand or mischaracterise their evidence, may be more inclined to accept as evidence things which a more objective observer might see as marginal or fraudulent, etcetera.

This does not relieve our Muslim friends from dealing with the facts as they actually are. It does suggest however that Christians should not automatically assume that the sorts of materials I have linked to here automatically demolish the foundations of the Islamic faith. Some measure of reserve and cross-checking of sources is advisable.

There are some good books out by practicing or in some cases secularised Muslim scholars who are applying the tools of textual and historical criticism to the Islamic texts. In many cases these schoars are forced to leave Islamic lands and/or publish under pseudonyms because they are seen as blaspheming Islam. The BBC did interviews with at least a couple of these people some months ago. Unfortunately I could not find sources for these in my google search. Perhaps someone else will know of them.

 

[r.gonzales]

ex-mormon:

Galatians 1:6-9 says, “I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is *really *not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.”

the words of paul of antioch mean nothing to me. islamic belief is that angels are incapable of disobeying Allah, let alone “falling from grace” and becoming a satan.

ex-mormon:

Both were given visions.

every single prophet and messenger sent by Allah received revelation, sometimes these revelations came in the form of visions. as well, every false-prophet claimed to get visions as well. so with respect to claims of receiving revelation, joseph smith doesn’t only have similiarties to muhammad, but he has similarites with every other prophet and messenger that was sent to mankind by Allah - including jesus, abraham, moses and the rest of them - may Allah sent greetings and peace upon all of them.

ex-mormon:

N. J. Dawood says that Mohammed was also concerned with the fact that the Jews and Christians had “divided themselves into schismatic sects.”

being that there were very few jews or christians - if any - in makkah during prophet muhammad’s life, n.j. dawood’s statement isn’t all that correct. rather, before receiving revelation, prophet muhammad “used to devote most of his time, and ramadan in particular, to worship and meditation on the universe around him. his heart was restless about the moral evils and idolatry that were rampant among his people; he was as yet helpless because no definite course, or specific approach had been available for him to follow and rectify the ill practices around him. this solitude attended with this sort of contemplative approach must be understood in its divine perspective. it was a preliminary stage to the period of grave responsibilities that he was to shoulder very soon.” (taken from the sealed nectar, biography of the prophet). prophet muhammad’s people were the pagan makkans, not jews or christians. as for prophet muhammad’s concern with sects, his concern was more for warning his followers from doing such and telling them to stick to the original teachings found in Allah’s book, the Quran and in his sunnah.

ex-mormon:

Both were to restore the long lost faith as the one true religion. Islam makes claim that Adam and Abraham were Muslims, a claim that is as ridiculous as it is undocumented from either history or archaeology. Mormons make the unsubstantiated claim that the church in the first century were Mormon.

again, as with the point about visions, the primary reason for the sending of prophets and messengers was to call the people to worship Allah alone without associating partners to Him. this was the original religion of mankind that Allah had taught adam and his proginy, the rest of mankind. so if you claim that this is a similarity between joseph smith and prophet muhammad, then it is a similarity between joseph smith and the rest of the prophets and messengers that Allah sent to mankind. as for the assertion that the claim that adam and abraham were muslims being ridiculous, it goes to show just how little you know of 1) the meaning of the word muslim and 2) the religion of those two aforementioned prophets of Allah. and btw, aren’t mormons considered christians or at the very least a deviant sect that branched off of christianity?

con’t…

 

[r.gonzales]

ex-mormon:

Both wrote a book inspired by God.

Both claimed to be illiterate or uneducated and used this as proof the book was inspired. “How could an illiterate man write the Koran or the Book of Mormon?” Joseph Smith is claimed to have only grade three education.

if both were illiterate (which prophet muhammad was), then this automatically negates your point that both wrote books inspired by Allah. plus, isn’t the book of mormon just a reworked version of the king james bible? as i said, the comparision between the Quran and the book of mormon are galaxies apart.

ex-mormon:

Both claimed the Bible was lost, altered, corrupted and unreliable.

this has already been proven by many. here are just some examples: changes in the bible & is the bible historically true?.

ex-mormon:

Both claimed their holy book was the most correct and perfect book on earth.

this can easily be verified by examining the books themselves. one is a reworked version of an older translation of the bible, with additions from other soucres. the other, the Quran, has a few challenges issued within its pages that have to this day been unanswered. centuries of arabic grammarians have yet to find a single error in it. the eloquence and beauty of the arabic found within it is unrivaled. as i said in my post, the two are galaxies apart and cannot be compared.

ex-mormon:

Both claimed that their new “Bible” was based upon a record stored in heaven. With Islam, it is the “mother book” that resides in heaven with God. With Mormonism, it is the golden Nephi plates that the angel Moroni took back to heaven.

the Quran is not the bible, nor does it claim to be the bible. and by the way, the preserved tablets (al-lawh al-mahfoodh) - which is the book that is in heaven with Allah - contains everything that has ever happened, is happening and is going to happen. so not only is the Quran preserved in it, all other revelations that Allah sent with His prophets and messengers is in it, as well as every single piece of writing ever to be written - every minute detail about every single occurance in history since the beginning of time…

ex-mormon:

Of course the proof that these claims are invalid is found in two books. The Mormon claim is proven false by a book called “3913 Changes to Book of Mormon” by Sandra Tanner. The Islamic claim is proven false by a book (In Arabic language) called, “Making Easy the Readings of What Has Been Sent Down” by Muhammad Fahd Khaaruun. Both books show that the copy of the book of Mormon and the Koran used today is different from what was originally used when each religion was started.

hahaha, that book is about the different recitations of the Quran and does not disprove the fact that the Quran in existence today is the Quran that was revealed to prophet muhammad.

read:

• the ahruf of the Quran (the word ahruf here can be translated as dialects)
• the qira’aat of the Quran (the word qira’aat which was translated as “readings” in the title of the book mentioned above can also be translated as recitations)
• criticism of arthur jeffery’s materials for the history of the text of the Quran.

ex-mormon:

Both claimed they were persecuted because of their pure faith.

claimed? either they were or they weren’t. the persecution the muslims faced during prophet muhammad’s life as a prophet and messenger are documented in authentic hadeeths and in the Quran itself. as for this point, all the true prophets and messengers sent by Allah were persecuted for their pure monotheistic faith - jesus, moses, abraham and the rest of them.

ex-mormon:

Both were polygamists who had many wives.

many of the prophets and messengers sent by Allah were polygynists, having more than one wife - including abraham and solomon. so again, this similiarity is also shared by other true prophets and messengers that were sent by Allah.

con’t…

 

[r.gonzales]

ex-mormon:

Muhammad incorporated that polytheistic moon god called “Allah” and “Allah’s three daughters” into Islam. Basically Muhammad chose Allah from within 350 known gods that were worshipped in Arabia and proclaimed the moon god to be the greatest and only God.

ha, the old moon god claim. already disproven. just do a search of my posts for “moon god”.

ex-mormon:

Both received “after the fact corrective revelations” from God. Muhammad retracted the Satanic verses and Smith retracted his divine order mandating polygamy. But for Mormons it there is even a closer parallel. Sounds exactly like Muhammad and his satanic verses.

the story of the satanic verses never happened and has been refuted by many.

ex-mormon:

Immediately after the death of Muhammad and Smith, a fight broke out from among the “faithful converts” as to who would succeed Muhammad and Smith. Both groups were plunged into irreparable division that has endured ever since.

after prophet muhammad’s death there was a minor disagreement concerning who would succeed prophet muhammad’s leadership, which was put to rest immediately when someone conveyed to the disputants that prophet muhammad said that the successors would be from the tribe of quraish, at which time, it was unanimously agreed amongst the companions of prophet muhammad, that aboo bakr as-siddeeq would be prophet muhammad’s first successor. and this is all recorded in authentic hadeeths.

ex-mormon:

Islam and Mormonism both have squabbles among themselves as to who is the one true splinter group of their prophet!

this is true of christianity itself with all the different sects and denominations that exist within it, not to mention it being true for virtually every major religion in the world. not much of a similary that can be specified to joseph smith and prophet muhammad if you ask me.

ex-mormon:

In the same way Muslims claim that all men are born Muslims and when they learn the truth of Christianity, they are apostatizing from their first faith. Muslims re-write history by proclaiming Jesus and the Apostles were Muslims in a similar way Mormons baptize Jews (for example) with the expectation they will be Mormons in the next life. Yet gathering of large genealogical lists no more makes dead people Mormons in the next life, than re-writing history makes Jesus into a Muslim.

seems pretty clear that you don’t understand what is meant when it is said everyone is born muslim… nor do you seem to understand, as i mentioned above, what the word muslim means. i suggest you search for the explanation of that hadeeth you allude to.

as for your claimed similarity, there’s a big difference between saying that all the prophets and messengers sent by Allah, as well as their companions, were muslim and between going back and “baptizing jews that died during the holocaust”.

ex-mormon:

Galaxies apart?

i’d say so. many of your similarities are similarities not only between joseph smith and prophet muhammad, but between joseph smith and all of Allah’s true prophets and messengers…

and btw, you completely misunderstood by the comparison between the two not even being close - “the two” i referred to were the book of mormon and the Quran.

 

[cestusdei]

I will go back to r’s major point. We are supposed to believe the Quran because…Muhammed said so? his buddies said so? despite the FACT that it wasn’t compiled until after the authors death and that most variants were destroyed?

Let’s consider that for a moment. You have several versions of a so-called “perfect” book. What do you do? Make one and destroy all the others. Then claim it is perfect because there is only “one” version. Talk about self-fufilling prophesy.

R doesn’t believe Paul. Well, I don’t believe Muhammed. I will stick with what the ANGEL said to Mary as recorded in Luke. All of our apostles suffered and died (save John) for their belief. Muhammeds companions tended more to kill for their belief.

Here is another idea. Which founder benefited from their religion? Jesus suffered and died on the cross. He got no wealth, women, or position. What did Muhammed get? Wealth, power, titles, and lots of women (some of them who were married to others until a convienent “suggestion” or revelation). Gee Joe Smith had the same mo. I think Jesus is far more believable. He gained nothing for himself. He acted out of love. Which is a word never found in the Quran.

 

[r.gonzales]

cestusdei:

I will go back to r’s major point. We are supposed to believe the Quran because…Muhammed said so? his buddies said so? despite the FACT that it wasn’t compiled until after the authors death and that most variants were destroyed?

Let’s consider that for a moment. You have several versions of a so-called “perfect” book. What do you do? Make one and destroy all the others. Then claim it is perfect because there is only “one” version. Talk about self-fufilling prophesy.

R doesn’t believe Paul. Well, I don’t believe Muhammed. I will stick with what the ANGEL said to Mary as recorded in Luke. All of our apostles suffered and died (save John) for their belief. Muhammeds companions tended more to kill for their belief.

Here is another idea. Which founder benefited from their religion? Jesus suffered and died on the cross. He got no wealth, women, or position. What did Muhammed get? Wealth, power, titles, and lots of women (some of them who were married to others until a convienent “suggestion” or revelation). Gee Joe Smith had the same mo. I think Jesus is far more believable. He gained nothing for himself. He acted out of love. Which is a word never found in the Quran.

wow. it never ceases to amaze me just how ignorant some people are - especially with regards to that last comment…

 

[cestusdei]

I take it you can refute what I said? Our scriptures say God is love and yours do not. That alone shows the Quran to be inferior.