Southern Baptists are everywhere

[ericka1701]

Where I live, there are about 10 Southern Baptists to every Catholic. I have been able to explain very well to some about devotion, but not worship, to Saints and the Blessed Virgin. There is one issue that I have had trouble explaining, and that is why do Catholics go to confession. I have pointed out the bible verses about the binding and loosening of sins, and how Jesus gave that power to his disciples at the time, and how that power was passed through all priests at all time. I also tell them that I don’t confess my sins to the priest himself, but to God through the priest. However, I just don’t seem to get through to them about the need to go to confession, and I can’t convince them that I am not committing blasphemy (it seems that everything Catholics do, though, is blasphemy to them). If I can’t defend my faith to them, how am I going to defend my faith to the devil?

 

[gr8full]

First I would say that it is your responsibility as a Catholic to know what you believe and why. It sounds like you do. Secondly, I would say it is up to the Holy Spirit to work in peoples hearts to help them understand. We have to do our part and leave the rest to God. There are some that will never, no matter what you say be ok with what the Church teaches. It’s just how it is. There are others who may not understand but will accept that as a Catholic you do indeed have a relationship with Christ, but just don’t understand all the details.
I say this because I have been raised Southern Baptist and am now in RCIA. I know that there are Baptist who don’t understand. Some of that is because they’ve never done the research themselves, some because they’ve known Catholics who frankly don’t know what they believe or why some things are done the way they are so it looks like it’s all just ceremony and man made works. There are others who read the scriptures and just don’t see it. I would say that most of the Baptist you are running into truly do care about your relationship with Chirst. It’s the reason they are asking. As a Baptist I ran into a lot of Catholics when I was living in a heavily Catholic populated area that really didn’t seem to have any kind of relationship with Christ, but because they went to church at Easter and Christmas they felt that they were ok spiritually. Perhaps that is what they are looking for when they question you, are you serious about your faith or are you just Catholic in name only. I don’t know what there intentions are obviously. I’m just trying to help you understand where they may be coming from.

 

[skeyes]

Ericka,
Gr8ful has done a good job of trying to help you see where Southern Baptist are coming from when they ask questions. I also was Southern Baptist. I converted to the true Church in 1988.
It is my conclusion that there may be a little more to their questions than knowledge of your spiritual condition, they are interested, but they also are strong evangelist. They are trying to convert the world to Southern Baptist.

I have one way that I convey confession to Baptist. Baptist don’t have altar calls as some protestants do because they realize they don’t have altars. They have invitations where they ask people to come and confess their faith in Jesus in front of the church if the are “accepting Jesus as their Savior”. They also have another part to this “invitation”. They say, if you have fallen away from God and would like to “rededicate” yourself to the Lord
then come on up and the preacher would like to pray with you.
So my question then is: what is that rededication? Is it not confession? So then if it is confession, then they are pretty much doing the same thing, they just don’t see it the same way we do.

My mother, who has since passed on, asked me about confession and I told her she had been to confession, she almost bit my head off before I explained the context. I don’t know if she saw the similarity of these two actions or not, but she never brought up confession again.

This may help you Ericka. If not then you will have to say as I do on occassion with my family members, there are things that we will probably never agree on, but we should focus on the things we do agree on and enjoy each others company.

Your witness that you know the Churches teachigns so well will change some minds.

Stan

 

[ericka1701]

Thanks to you both for your replies. It does help to see where they’re coming from. I myself am a convert. I was raised in the PC(USA) (Presbyterian Church (United States of America)), and I guess that it wasn’t until I was about 16, and was starting to question everything myself (my minister did tell me I should test my faith, and question everything…) that I didn’t even look at the Catholic Church outside of the few weddings and funerals I’d been to.

I do also use the verse about loving the Lord Thy God with all of your mind, strength, body, soul… etc… Basically, the good Lord gave us brains, so we ought to use them. Along with everything, in good balance.

 

[dhgray]

Question: If the Southern Baptist are so great and the Catholic Church is so bad, then why is there one Church where all the Catholics worship and it takes 10 for the baptists?

have some fun: Have them read our profession of faith and see if they disagree…oh and BTW, it’s all from the bible:

We believe in God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfilment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

 

[Nita]

There is one issue that I have had trouble explaining, and that is why do Catholics go to confession. I have pointed out the bible verses about the binding and loosening of sins, and how Jesus gave that power to his disciples at the time, and how that power was passed through all priests at all time. I also tell them that I don’t confess my sins to the priest himself, but to God through the priest. However, I just don’t seem to get through to them about the need to go to confession, and I can’t convince them that I am not committing blasphemy (it seems that everything Catholics do, though, is blasphemy to them).

When giving the Scripture passages about the binding and loosing of sins, did you also point out that in order to exercise that power, the disciples would **need to be informed **that there were actual sins that needed forgiving. The disciple would **need to know a bit about the circumstances also **in order to make a decision as to whether the sin/s should be “loosed” or “bound”. Thus the need for confession is implied if the disciples are to carry out Our Lord’s directive.

If I can’t defend my faith to them, how am I going to defend my faith to the devil?

I’ve never heard of having to defend one’s faith to the devil. Could you explain further?

Nita

 

[VociMike]

There are two things you should bring up to them. The first, being scriptural, should get their attention. That is, when and where did God breathe on anything? The first time is in Genesis when he breathed a soul into newly-formed Adam. Pretty significant! The next and only other time God breathed on anything was when Jesus breathed on the apostles, giving them the Holy Spirit, immediately after which he gave them the authority to forgive or retain sins. They should also understand that to be especially significant. Something BIG happened at that moment, and first and foremost what happened is that God passed along to certain people the authority that until that point only he had possessed, the authority to forgive sins.

The second point is that confession forces one to confront one’s sins in a way unlike any other. Why do you think people are so reluctant to go to confession? What is a large reason those Baptists so horrified at the idea? Because we are ashamed and embarrassed to tell the priest what we have done. Much more ashamed and embarrassed than we are in front of God, and that should not be. We confess our sins to God too lightly, without truly confronting them. But God, in his infinite wisdom, understands that when we confess to the priest we are forced to confront our sins much more directly and completely, and that is the reason for our shame and embarrassment, and it is hoped for our true contrition and resolve to sin no more.

If we all were truly shamed and mortified in confessing to God there would be no reason to confess to a priest (well, not really - I’ll get to that in a bit). But we are not, by and large, truly shamed and mortified when we confess to God, and thus we tend to take the matter too lightly.

The one additional advantage to confessing to a priest is that the priest can then direct us in how to make proper amends, and in how to move forward in our goal to conquer sin in our life. Baptists understand this, which is why so many of them seek counsel from their pastors.

 

[foundthelight]

Add to the above what James had to say.

Jas 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The supplication of a righteous man availeth much in its working

.

 

[Cristiano]

First, I would thank God that there are Southern Baptists everywhere instead of atheists and/or pro-abortion people.

Second, I would thank God that even if they do not have the whole Truth they share most of the basic tenets of faith with us.

Third, I would thank God for the opportunity to talk to them and to share the teachings of the Church with them.

Fourth, I would thank God for all the support that I can get from CAF.

Fifth, you do not have to defend your faith to the devil, you just have to trust in God.

Finally, Relax and don’t try to save them, that it is up to God. Just be honest and share yourself, they will come closer to the Church.

 

[Light_Seeker]

However, I just don’t seem to get through to them about the need to go to confession

Interesting. Usually the apologetics fall into confessing to a Priest. Sounds like you did a great job on Apostolic succession and a Priest being the delegate of the Lord.

Sounds like you’re hitting the differences of OSAS theology. ie, Jesus died for my sins, I have confessed my faith, therefore I am forever saved - and there is no need for confession.

 

[CentralFLJames]

They are attempting to draw you into an evangelical salvation script. Problem is - it’s wrong. You just need to preempt it by agreeing in common ground then turn it on them with proper teaching. Also understand the physchology of most fundamentalists. They mean well & honestly believe all that they say. But they are really fear driven and hung up on the whole protestant “saved” canard - its a false salvation based on the sin of presumption. Make them see the clear logic that NO ONE is saved UNTIL GOD judges them saved - anything else presumes to judge self or others in place of God! That is clearly a violation of God’s sovereignty.

Here I like the counter-script that Fr. John Martignoni uses & the key verse.

**1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” **
Evangelical Protestant Salvation Script to Convert Catholics:

“A Simple Approach in Witnessing [to Roman Catholics]”

1. Don’t attack Roman Catholicism!!!
2. Ask them the question, “Are you a Christian?” (They will probably answer, “Yes, I’m a Catholic.”)
3. Respond by saying, “Great, then do you believe that Jesus Christ is your Savior?” (They will probably answer, “Yes”.)
4. Ask, “If you died tonight, do you know for sure that you have eternal life, that you will go to heaven and be with the Lord?” (They will probably respond that they hope so or they are trying, or how is it possible to know that.)
5. If they indicate that they don’t know for sure then ask: “What is it that separates us from God?” (The answer you want is sin: Rom 3:32, 6:23.)
6. Then ask, “Which sin of ours doesn’t Christ fully atone for?” (The answer should be none - He died for all our sins. 1 Pet 3:18; Heb 10:10-12; Rom 8:1; Rom 5:1.)
7. State: “To truly receive Christ as your Savior, you must trust in Him alone, that He took all of our sins on the cross that we might know that we have eternal life (1 John 5:11-13).”

Catholic Preemption to Evangelical Salvation Script:

Here is John Martignoni’s latest newsletters that talk of this very issue: biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter_details.php?id=151

Well, we’re in agreement up until Question #4. The first thing to do whenever someone asks this question is to immediately ask them: “Where is that question in the Bible?” Where does Jesus, or Paul, or Peter, or James, or anyone else ask someone, “If you died tonight do you know for sure that you would go to Heaven?” Ask them to give you book, chapter, and verse. They can’t do it, because that question is not in the Bible. In other words, these “Bible–only” Christians have made up some sort of salvation test that is nowhere found in the Bible…it is a man–made invention.

When asked if you “know” that you would go to Heaven should you “die tonight,” answer like this: ”I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but that does not mean I am acquitted. It is the Lord Who judges me.”

Now, if they try and point out that the Bible says that we can “know” – which they interpret to mean “have absolute assurance” – that we are saved and heading to Heaven and, therefore, any one who is “really” a Christian would have absolute assurance of their salvation, then simply repeat, “I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but that does not mean I am acquitted. It is the Lord Who judges me.”

They will then say your response indicates that you are not saved – then simply point out that your response is almost an exact quote from Paul – 1 Cor 4:3–4. Tell them you are simply answering their non–scriptural question with a quote from Scripture itself. And, if they take that to somehow mean that you are not saved, then they are directly insinuating that Paul himself must not have been saved…because those are Paul’s words!

So, let’s say you answer #4 with, “I am not my own judge, God is,” and they then interpret that as the poor little Catholic taking the bait and they move in to spring the trap with question #5, “**What is it that separates us from God?” And you, quite rightly, answer with, “Sin.” ** They then think they’ve sealed the deal with Question #6, “Which sin of ours doesn’t Christ fully atone for?”

What do you do? How do you respond?

Answer:** “The unrepented one.”**

Now, Christ did indeed atone for all of our sins, repented and unrepented; however, the atonement is not applied to the unrepented sins. So turn around and ask your questioner this: “Does Christ forgive YOUR unrepented sins?”

Since these people believe in the error of once saved, always saved, they have to believe that Christ forgives their sins whether they repent of them or not. Yet, if they answer your question with a, “Yes,” Christ does indeed forgive their unrepented sins, they are flying in the face of Scripture: **1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” ** “If,” we confess our sins. If we repent. If we don’t, we are not forgiven. If we are not forgiven, we are not saved. This can also be very clearly seen in Jesus’ words to the seven churches in Rev 2 and 3.

But, if they answer in accord with Scripture and say, “No,” Christ does not forgive their unrepented sins, then how can they believe in once saved, always saved? Because once they’re saved, they could always commit a sin for which they do not repent. God does not force us to repent. Repentance is not automatic, even for a Christian. And, if they have a sin for which they h aven’t repented, which means it hasn’t been forgiven, which means they have lost their salvation since, as they pointed out earlier, sin separates us from Christ…then how can once saved always saved be true?

See the link for the rest of the script rebuttal.

James

 

[broski234]

When giving the Scripture passages about the binding and loosing of sins, did you also point out that in order to exercise that power, the disciples would **need to be informed **that there were actual sins that needed forgiving. The disciple would **need to know a bit about the circumstances also **in order to make a decision as to whether the sin/s should be “loosed” or “bound”. Thus the need for confession is implied if the disciples are to carry out Our Lord’s directive.

I’ve never heard of having to defend one’s faith to the devil. Could you explain further?

Nita

Also, I would reference 2 Corinthians 5:17-20 where St. Paul tells us that through Christ, they have received the ministry of reconciliation. Doesn’t get much clearer than that? So if whatever they bind and loose on Earth will be bound and loosed in Heaven (mt18:18) and whose sins they forgive will be forgiven (jn20:23), then these are clear signs that God has given the Authority to forgive sins to his apostles. Also the Apostles did appoint successors to carry out their mission. If that comes into question, then refernece Acts 1:20 where they let another take the office of Judas.

 

[gr8full]

I would like to say to FlJames that all Fundamentalist which btw aren’t all Protestants, are not “fear driven” as you said. Using words like “all” can be dangerous and extremely unfair.

What would they have to fear? I mean, when you grow up being taught that OSAS what else is there to fear once you have made a profession of faith?

 

[VociMike]

I would like to say to FlJames that all Fundamentalist which btw aren’t all Protestants, are not “fear driven” as you said. Using words like “all” can be dangerous and extremely unfair.

What would they have to fear? I mean, when you grow up being taught that OSAS what else is there to fear once you have made a profession of faith?

I understand that many of them are possessed by the fear that perhaps they weren’t really saved after all, and that it is not uncommon for some to get “saved” (and re-baptized) over and over, due to that fear.

 

[edjco]

One thing I would tell them is how wonderful you feel when the priest absolves you. I always come out of confession feeling like I have been scrubbed clean.

My wife was Southern Baptist and converted to Catholicism, but remained a bit uneasy about confession. The thing that finally clicked to her was when we were talking about OSAS and confession. I asked her if she thought Mother Theresa was in Heaven and she said “Of course.” I said “You do realize she was baptized as an infant”? I then asked her if she thought Timothy McVeigh was in Heaven and she of course said “No”. I told her that McVeigh had been “saved”, had accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior.
That really got her thinking…, and did the trick.
One thing I noticed about the Southern Baptists in my family is that they don’t believe in OSAS nor do they believe in Sola Fide. They were quite surprised to learn that their church did. Those beliefs don’t really pass the “smell” test, so I think your average Baptist doesn’t really get much instruction on them from their church.

 

[broski234]

I would like to say to FlJames that all Fundamentalist which btw aren’t all Protestants, are not “fear driven” as you said. Using words like “all” can be dangerous and extremely unfair.

What would they have to fear? I mean, when you grow up being taught that OSAS what else is there to fear once you have made a profession of faith?

Gr8full,
do you subscribe to Once Saved Always Saved?

 

[ericka1701]

First of all I want to thank everyone for their responses. This will help me the next time I’m evangelized. Also, in searching for the answer to explain to others, I have had some of my own misconceptions and areas of confusion cleared up a little bit.

What I meant by defending my faith to the devil is being able to not only quote scripture (I don’t do very well with chapter/verse placement… I am pretty good at content, though), but to know what the meaning of the word is when he is trying to confuse me or bring me away from the faith. Even in the bible, he used scripture to try to temp the Lord, so I am trying to learn as much as I can to be able to separate out true prophesy from false prophesy (and true prophets from false ones). Unfortunately it doesn’t matter how well intentioned the false prophets are, the fact of the matter is that their teachings can and do lead others from the faith, or even cause them to not become a part of the faith.

I don’t belive it’s my mission to “save” anyone. That, as was so eloquently stated, is God’s job alone. I just don’t want to become a stumbling block due to ignorance. I don’t want to be a stumbling block so badly that I have seriously curbed my language (I used to make pirates blush), because though I don’t think that for the most part cussing is a big deal, it is to others.

 

[gr8full]

Ericka I’m so glad you’re able to feel more confident now.I think we never really stop learning(unless we choose to).

To answer other questions, I do not believe on OSAS, but if you go to the Baptist Faith and Message you will see it is a very seriously and strongly taught belief in the Baptist church. The whold OSAS issue is one thing that got me looking in other directions.
Some churches may not teach it, although I’ve been to Baptist churches in a lot of states and they all did, it is what they believe. Being Baptist, they can all preach what they feel God is leading them to preach in the way they want to preach it. Therefore, some don’t focus on the same things as others.
As for the whole redication issue, it’s not they are afraid (most of them) they weren’t really saved to begin with, it’s a matter of them realizing they haven’t been living like God would desire, or they may be moving into the next step I guess you could say and they are seeking a deeper relationship.
As for the Baptist who are trying to evangelize Catholics it’s because I think they likely don’t understand the Catholic Church and what the church really believes and teaches, especially if they continue to push once they find out you’re a Catholic.If they say ok great,then likely they’ve run into Catholics who are able to convey that yes they are doing just find spiritually. Thats why it’s so important for Catholics to know their stuff. If my friend who I orginially asked questions of hadn’t known the answers or the right answers who knows how much longer it would have taken for me to get on the path I’m on now.
Obviously I have no clue to whats in the heart of Baptist everywhere. I am speaking of my experiences and the experiences I have been told of personally. Although I am in RCIA I am always going to have an appreciation for the church that first lead me to a relationship with Christ. I know that all Southern Baptist are not as open minded as they should be, they have their issues for sure, they, in general love the Lord.

 

[Light_Seeker]

I don’t belive it’s my mission to “save” anyone. That, as was so eloquently stated, is God’s job alone

“To teach in order to lead others to faith is the task of every preacher and of each believer” … St. Thomas Aquinas

You may not believe its your mission to ‘save’ anyone. You may not believe you are ‘saving’ anyone. But you may someday be pleasantly surprised! By sharing your faith & teachings, you just may have influenced some of your Southern Baptist friends. Or at the very least, to question their own faith beliefs.

Happened to me sharing my Catholicism with Baptist friends.They seriously started questioning their denominational beliefs … have now joined a Lutheran Church (Catholic Lite ). Not quite home, but on the way.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Where I live, there are about 10 Southern Baptists to every Catholic. I have been able to explain very well to some about devotion, but not worship, to Saints and the Blessed Virgin. There is one issue that I have had trouble explaining, and that is why do Catholics go to confession. I have pointed out the bible verses about the binding and loosening of sins, and how Jesus gave that power to his disciples at the time, and how that power was passed through all priests at all time. I also tell them that I don’t confess my sins to the priest himself, but to God through the priest. However, I just don’t seem to get through to them about the need to go to confession, and I can’t convince them that I am not committing blasphemy (it seems that everything Catholics do, though, is blasphemy to them). If I can’t defend my faith to them, how am I going to defend my faith to the devil?

I was SB for 30 years. Where I grew up (in small town, Tennessee), there was only 1 Catholic Church and over 50 protestant churches. I’m not kidding either. Baptists are like weeds there.

The truth is that you can only share what you can - gracefully - and allow the Holy Spirit to work in their life. It’s frustrating, I know. I use to be an SB crusader trying to convert everyone. It used to frustrate the heck out of me. I figured that if you presented a good Biblical argument that there was no way they could refuse such logic!

The truth is that truth is a matter of the heart. And the Holy Spirit has the key that unlocks our hearts. As far as defending your faith to the Devil - you don’t have to prove anything. If you are out to prove your faith to people then you have to re-evaluate your motives. Share the gospel and let God do the rest.

Tell the Devil to go speak to Jesus instead of wasting your time with questions about your faith.

Peace…

MW