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Yes, I remember your words from Post 71. I guess what I was actually thinking about was “sheer accidents,” more than the wills of men and women. I can easily walk out of my room and stub my toe. I could easily get into my car are run someone over. How would sheer accidents fit into what appears to me to be a well thought out asymmetry of configuring cosmic s-frames? And, since God is responsible for all, why sheer accidents?
But, since you expanded in a slightly different direction, you have brought another question to mind. According the the Church, we are each supplied with what is called, sufficient grace, when we are born. Sufficient grace is supposed to propel us into the mode of receiving more of God’s graces. But, sometimes it doesn’t. If it does not, it is thought that God does not waste any more grace on such people. Yet, they continue, still under God’s direct algorithm. This is confusing to me.
If you wish to turn this into a more discursive thread, please do. I am glad, though, that you had the chance to expand your ideas beforehand. How would you (all) like to proceed?
God bless,
jd
JD,
I have read enough of your posts to know that you are better grounded in theology than I am, and would look for your guidance when the subject of grace enters our discussion. I presume that we will be able to arrive at an interpretation that is understandable to the the minds of whomever takes part in our consensus endeavor of the various forms of grace, namely:
sufficent, efficatious, sanctifying, actual, habitual, and sacramental grace.
Yppop
I am interested, flexible, whatever works for you guys.

It seems God’s grace could be related and understood in relation to soul. What is soul and where it is? That’s the question that maybe should be answered first.

Jano
Jano
Before we start a discussion that I believe can lead to a consensus thesis let me first answer your question: The soul, what is it? where is it?

The evolutionary sequence of animal species that appear in the fossil record displays an increasing complexity and consciousness along with greater cephalization (the concentration of the nervous system in the head). From this observation we can assume that consciousness, which is the manifestation of a spiritual component, is directly related to the complexity of the brain. Even though the soul is a spiritual substance conterminous in some way with the person’s body (hylomorphically?), I imagine that the soul concentrates in the brain. I also assume that the soul is a portal that is open to God’s grace. We can look inward and close it, ignore it, or look upward to open it wider.

I will make a proposal (in my next post) regarding the approach to a discussion centered on the thesis I have outlined with the objective of creating a “consensus thesis” .

Yppop
 
By a consensus thesis I mean one that resonates with near fidelity in more than one mind. By resonate I mean that the ideas expressed in the consensus thesis fit the knowledge, value system, and beliefs of the individual minds. I don’t mean that each mind must agree, but merely understand the ideas presented. I will present the ideas in my thesis. I am a Catholic obedient to the dogma and traditions of the church and the ideas I present will, as far as I know, meet that criteria. For the most part the ideas that are presented are theologically neutral and do not conflict with my current understanding of science.
.
I think the ideas that built the foundation of our consensus thesis should be discussed first. Here are three suggestions:
  1. The idea of a four-tiered existence: objective, subjective, rational, and transcendent reality
  2. The idea that science describes reality with an explicate view: while God created reality at an implicate view.
  3. The idea that the dualities of mind/body, material/spiritual, form/substance can be explained on the basis of dual modalities of space: discrete and continuous.
Any preference?

Yppop
 
By a consensus thesis I mean one that resonates with near fidelity in more than one mind. By resonate I mean that the ideas expressed in the consensus thesis fit the knowledge, value system, and beliefs of the individual minds. I don’t mean that each mind must agree, but merely understand the ideas presented. I will present the ideas in my thesis. I am a Catholic obedient to the dogma and traditions of the church and the ideas I present will, as far as I know, meet that criteria. For the most part the ideas that are presented are theologically neutral and do not conflict with my current understanding of science.
.
I think the ideas that built the foundation of our consensus thesis should be discussed first. Here are three suggestions:
  1. The idea of a four-tiered existence: objective, subjective, rational, and transcendent reality
  2. The idea that science describes reality with an explicate view: while God created reality at an implicate view.
  3. The idea that the dualities of mind/body, material/spiritual, form/substance can be explained on the basis of dual modalities of space: discrete and continuous.
Any preference?

Yppop
Yppop:

I’m good with these, so let’s proceed forward. I’d like to be able to alter, or improve, any or all of them as we go forward, as no doubt we will.
  1. By “objective,” we mean, ob-jectum, or that which is thrown against something else (that which strikes the senses). So, it is the Reality we find outside of ourselves. Correct?
  2. By “subjective,” we mean, that which is an object of thought? (Including "picture thoughts?)
  3. By, “rational,” we mean, “ideas?” Or, “logical beings?”
  4. By “transcendent” reality, we mean, as opposed to “mundane?”
Or, do you wish to either limit them, or expand them?

I plan to re-read your posts, yes, from the beginning of this thread! Give me a day or two. Jano, if you want to jump in with something, please do.

God bless,
jd
 
Can I start with the bolded before going on?

Your question is
how can we be so sure that there are no such things as spirits or souls

My question is who is sure?
SJ:

It seems that most of the unadulterated atheists herein are positive - that there is no God.
There is a difference between possiblility and probability.
You are right.
There is also a difference between sure and certain.
Well, there are those that speak to their “certainty.” However, I find their arguments to be very unsophisticated. By that I simply mean, “not fully thought out.” Is that your take?

God bless,
jd
 
Yppop:

I’m good with these, so let’s proceed forward. I’d like to be able to alter, or improve, any or all of them as we go forward, as no doubt we will.
  1. By “objective,” we mean, ob-jectum, or that which is thrown against something else (that which strikes the senses). So, it is the Reality we find outside of ourselves. Correct?
  2. By “subjective,” we mean, that which is an object of thought? (Including "picture thoughts?)
  3. By, “rational,” we mean, “ideas?” Or, “logical beings?”
  4. By “transcendent” reality, we mean, as opposed to “mundane?”
Or, do you wish to either limit them, or expand them?

I plan to re-read your posts, yes, from the beginning of this thread! Give me a day or two. Jano, if you want to jump in with something, please do.

God bless,
jd
I don’t have any preference at the moment. Once we start with forming ideas I’ll see if that’s still the case.
Reading as well …
Jano
 
It seems that most of the unadulterated atheists herein are positive - that there is no God.
Hence their positive negativity is positively in need of a positive explanation - despite the claims of some atheists who positively deny that their negativity needs positive justification! 😉
 
Yppop:

I’m good with these, so let’s proceed forward. I’d like to be able to alter, or improve, any or all of them as we go forward, as no doubt we will.
  1. By “objective,” we mean, ob-jectum, or that which is thrown against something else (that which strikes the senses). So, it is the Reality we find outside of ourselves. Correct?
  2. By “subjective,” we mean, that which is an object of thought? (Including "picture thoughts?)
  3. By, “rational,” we mean, “ideas?” Or, “logical beings?”
  4. By “transcendent” reality, we mean, as opposed to “mundane?”
Or, do you wish to either limit them, or expand them?

I plan to re-read your posts, yes, from the beginning of this thread! Give me a day or two. Jano, if you want to jump in with something, please do.

God bless,
jd
JD, Jano, et.al.
I agree with your four definitions. However I would like to expand on them somewhat by giving an implicate view of the reality that exists outside ourselves. I will refer to the implicate view as the Model of Dual Reality (MDR).

In the MDR, we recognize that reality consists of two kinds of space: discrete and continuous. The implicate view of reality is based on the configuration of s-points, the points associated with discrete space. Matter is composed of atoms that can be reduced to point particles (electrons and quarks). Consequently, matter is nothing more than “points” and why not assume that those points are the s-points of the MDR. So when you look at an apple or any other form of matter you are looking solely at a configuration of points, no smoothness, no redness. What you “see” is a spherical, smooth, red object. The table it is resting on and the air it is immersed in are also matter that is composed of the same s-points. With a little imagination, we can envision the apple, table, and air as one coherent configuration. And with a bit more imagination, we could translate that image to the entire universe, a single coherent configuration of s-points that is called the cosmic s-frame. Nothing else exists outside our mind. The spherical shape, smoothness, and redness are images existing in our nous, the spiritual component of our mind; they are called qualia that form subjective reality. These images (or percepts) allow us to distinguish the apple from the table among the configuration of s-points.

It may seem like I am leaning toward a solipsism view of reality, I am not. I view the world beyond myself as real as anything in the universe but so are the qualia in our mind. What distinguishes objective from the subjective is the substance from which they acquire form. Discrete space, the material aspect of reality, is the substance from which objective reality is formed. Continuous space, the spiritual aspect of reality, is the substance from which subjective reality is formed.

In the MDR, materiality is nothing more than the absence of s-points. An atom, which is essentially a volume devoid of s-points except for the point particles that create its nature and properties, gains the property of materiality from the absence of s-points. Matter in the implicate view is the absence of s-points. Where you to fly the edge of the universe, when you get to the boundary, it would feel like you flew into an immovable wall because there are no s-points beyond the edge of the universe. This, of course, assumes that the universe is finite, an assumption that is anathema to the anti-theist cosmologists.

To summarize, objective reality is nothing more that the configuration of s-points, the forms of which are made recognizable by the qualia created by the nous, the spiritual component of the mind.

The interesting part of this view of reality it that it can only be comprehended through the existence of rational reality.

Please contemplate what I describe as the implicate view of objective/subjective reality and add you comments, question and suggestions. If you are satisfied within your own mind that there is some sense and/or value in this implicate view let me know and we could go on to rational reality, the world of symbols, where we spend a good part of our existence.

Take all the time you need in responding; I am in the middle of Christmas shopping. I don’t shop but I am a devoted chauffer for my wife who does lots of it.

Yppop
 
JD, Jano, et.al.
I agree with your four definitions. However I would like to expand on them somewhat by giving an implicate view of the reality that exists outside ourselves. I will refer to the implicate view as the Model of Dual Reality (MDR).

In the MDR, we recognize that reality consists of two kinds of space: discrete and continuous. The implicate view of reality is based on the configuration of s-points, the points associated with discrete space. Matter is composed of atoms that can be reduced to point particles (electrons and quarks). Consequently, matter is nothing more than “points” and why not assume that those points are the s-points of the MDR.
So, the sharing of electrons is the sharing of s-points, if I read you correctly? Or, is it more like a juxtaposition, i.e., s-points configured side-by-side?
So when you look at an apple or any other form of matter you are looking solely at a configuration of points, no smoothness, no redness. What you “see” is a spherical, smooth, red object. The table it is resting on and the air it is immersed in are also matter that is composed of the same s-points.
As in “kind?” In other words, the same kind of s-points? Each reality (qualia), in your view, consists of its own s-points, correct?
With a little imagination, we can envision the apple, table, and air as one coherent configuration.
Some shared and some configured side-by-side, correct?
And with a bit more imagination, we could translate that image to the entire universe, a single coherent configuration of s-points that is called the cosmic s-frame. Nothing else exists outside our mind. The spherical shape, smoothness, and redness are images existing in our nous, the spiritual component of our mind; they are called qualia that form subjective reality.
The nous, as I recall is the mind, aka soul? Does the nous transform the s-points, in our minds, into the perception of material things, then?
These images (or percepts) allow us to distinguish the apple from the table among the configuration of s-points.
And, because their s-points are not shared, but rather, merely in proximity, they can be easily separated. Whereas with continuous matter, a destruction of the sharing of s-points takes place.
It may seem like I am leaning toward a solipsism view of reality, I am not. I view the world beyond myself as real as anything in the universe but so are the qualia in our mind.
So, you see it as illusions tricked into non-illusions, that is to say, illusions tricked into Reality, right?
What distinguishes objective from the subjective is the substance from which they acquire form. Discrete space, the material aspect of reality, is the substance from which objective reality is formed. Continuous space, the spiritual aspect of reality, is the substance from which subjective reality is formed.
So, the properties of discrete space may consist of both matter, separately, or matter and its form, in composition. It is the nous that translates the composition of matter and form into that which is an intelligible composite. Do you see discrete space combining with continuous space? If so, do you suggest a mechanism? Or, is it a pure translation?
In the MDR, materiality is nothing more than the absence of s-points. An atom, which is essentially a volume devoid of s-points except for the point particles that create its nature and properties, gains the property of materiality from the absence of s-points. Matter in the implicate view is the absence of s-points. Were you to fly [to] the edge of the universe, when you get to the boundary, it would feel like you flew into an immovable wall because there are no s-points beyond the edge of the universe. This, of course, assumes that the universe is finite, an assumption that is anathema to the anti-theist cosmologists.
How is the universe expanding? Do you see the creation of s-points, or, the addition of continuous space to discrete space?
To summarize, objective reality is nothing more that the configuration of s-points, the forms of which are made recognizable by the qualia created by the nous, the spiritual component of the mind.
Yet, although each atom of like-kind is identical, each leaf of a tree is different.
The interesting part of this view of reality it that it can only be comprehended through the existence of rational reality.
Thus, the lunatic is lost! 🤷
Please contemplate what I describe as the implicate view of objective/subjective reality and add you comments, question and suggestions. If you are satisfied within your own mind that there is some sense and/or value in this implicate view let me know and we could go on to rational reality, the world of symbols, where we spend a good part of our existence.
OK. Clear up these couple of points and please go on.
Take all the time you need in responding; I am in the middle of Christmas shopping. I don’t shop but I am a devoted chauffer for my wife who does lots of it.
Well, get her something nice as a thank you.

God bless,
jd
 
There are few things that I want to keep in perspective.
We recognize there is God.
God has no dimensions.
Then there are God’s creations. They have dimensions.
God’s creations in our space time (x, y, z, t).
God’s creations outside of our space time. These creations have dimensions that we don’t know.
Does it make sense?
If yes, then I would like to keep track of what is what.

For example s-frame. Is it only our space time? How are we going to call s-frames of other dimensions?

Your thoughts?
God bless,
Jano
 
So, the sharing of electrons is the sharing of s-points, if I read you correctly? Or, is it more like a juxtaposition, i.e., s-points configured side-by-side?
I think you’ve got it if what you mean by “…like a juxtaposition, i.e. s-points configured side-by-side?” is that both the quarks and the electrons are juxtaposed in a defined relationship to each other. All s-point are alike; each electron and quark is a configuration of s-points.

I must be careful when I mention a scientific entity such as an electron, that exists at an explicate level, when I am talking about s-points, that exist at the implicate level. Electrons and quarks, (the limit to which science has quantized matter) are assumed to be point particles, meaning that their size cannot be determined physically. Scientists do, however, calculate the radius of an electron mathematically. The classical radius of the electron is about 2.8x10^-13 meters. S-points most likely could never be observed “physically” because the distances at which s-points are involved are orders of magnitude smaller than anything science could ever observe. I assume that the minimum spacing between s-points is the Planck length = 10^-34 meters. I should have written: “In the explicate view, matter is composed of atoms that can be reduced to particles (electrons and quarks). They are assumed to be points, hence I feel justified in assuming that electrons and quarks are configurations of s-points”.

I imagine the smallest bit of matter to be something I call the s-particle. The s-particle is simply a volume within which the s-points are concentrated at the center of the s-volume leaving the rest of the volume devoid of s-points. I believe that electrons and quarks are specific configurations of many s-points. But here I am getting into a subject that I prefer to avoid, namely the physics of discrete space. There is a whole area of study called digital physics that is based on the discreteness of reality. Here is what Wikipedia says about Ed Fredkin, one of the leading gurus of digital physics:

"In digital physics, the Fredkin Finite Nature Hypothesis states that ultimately all quantities of physics, including space and time, are discrete and finite. All measurable physical quantities arise from some Planck scale substrate for multiverse information processing."

So, I am not the only one assuming a deeper view of reality that exists at the Planck scale of dimensionality. As far as I know, no one has described the structure that I have assumed, namely: matter and energy (and all measurable quantities) arising from points of discrete space (s-points) that are immersed in continuous space (nomos) that provides the spiritual component of reality.

One need only to look at a flat computer or TV screen to directly observe an analog of how I imagine discrete space to be. Think of the pixels as the s-points and the dark lines that define each pixel represent continuous space. The various configurations of activated pixels create forms. The pixel situation is not a direct analog; s-points aren’t activated. Nevertheless, the concept of creating continuous appearing reality from an array of discrete units is the same; the mechanism that generates this illusion is different.
As in “kind?” In other words, the same kind of s-points? Each reality (qualia), in your view, consists of its own s-points, correct?
Some shared and some configured side-by-side, correct?
The configuration of s-points create a form, of say an apple, without any of the properties (accidents) that we recognize as an apple. Qualia are those properties that make the form an apple in our mind. Without this gift from God, the form would be indistinguishable from a rock. Qualia exist in the nous. Animals have nous, hence qualia, but don’t have the language ability, therefore don’t have minds.(see my answer to your next comment tomorrow for an elaboration on this).

Qualia are formed in the nous, thus have a continuous nature. Qualia is a general term that includes emotions, feelings, thoughts (meanings), and percepts. A percept is a set of quales that each specific form (a specific configuration of s-points) projects through our senses into the nous. Thus the configuration of s-points that is an apple projects sets of sensations into the mind that we “see” as a smooth round object of a characteristic form. You are correct in a way when you wrote, “Each reality (qualia), in your view, consists of its own s-points…”. I would reverse it and say that each configuration of s-points generates its own quale.

To be continued tomorrow.

Yppop
 
There are few things that I want to keep in perspective.
We recognize there is God.
God has no dimensions.
Then there are God’s creations. They have dimensions.
God’s creations in our space time (x, y, z, t).
God’s creations outside of our space time. These creations have dimensions that we don’t know.
Does it make sense?
If yes, then I would like to keep track of what is what.

For example s-frame. Is it only our space time? How are we going to call s-frames of other dimensions?

Your thoughts?
Jano,

I am not a fan of the multiverse theories in which cosmologists use mathematical formulations and spectulations to create scenarios that have no need of a beginning of the universe, hence no need for a creation, and hence no need for a creator. I do, however, have a hope for the reality of parallel universes.

The multiverse theories generally are derived from the General Theory of Relaativity the modern physics most powerful tool for dealing with the cosmos.

Parallel universes are a consequence of the Many World Interpretation of the Schroedinger wave equation, the most powerful tool for dealing with the sub-atomic. It is interpreted to mean that each of use will live multiple lives and I personnally would not mind. I would love to fall in love with my wife again, to walk in a warm spring rain again, to hit a baseball once more, to see La Boheme again, to be with my mother and father again in the same tempral relationship as I knew them in this life, and that is only possible if I live the same life over again with a few unwanted wrinkles ironed out. And then again this is not anymore speculative that the speculation of more dimensions that 3-spatial, 1-temporal.

Thank you for your responses.
Yppop.
 
I regard everything as “Things.” I try not to pour anything more into “Things” than is needed to make their reality somatic and understandable to me. Smarter men and women than I have divided Things up into genera and species, as each Thing more or less resembles other Things. One of the speciators, as it were, is the relationship between Things consisting of greater or lesser density.

To my way of thinking, Space is merely a Thing. It is postulated that there is no place in Space where there is nothing, i.e. an absolute vacuum (as we conceive it). Even in the farthest reaches of it, scientists indicate that other Things (more or less) are passing through almost every square inch of Space. In the least dense areas of it, it may be a singular photon, speeding through on its way somewhere, and certain fields (e.g., gravity) exist in it.

So, for me Space is that Thing that is the least dense of everything we conceive of as Things. Other Things of greater, equal, or lesser density are able to pass through it with more or less ease (even though they might be slowed down because of friction). E.g., a bullet easily passes into and through a human body. The primary component of the bullet which is lead, is denser than skin and other human tissue, and so passes into and through it until it slows perhaps to some indistinct stop.

The MOHS scale ranks many types of Things as to their hardness, which is a reflection of each’s density, to some degree, as well as how the primary components of it adhere to one another. A stainless steel bullet will pass through lead (until ultimately slowed by friction).

Things hold together by natural processes we understand to be “hooks” of various kinds: electro-magnetic forces, the inexorable pull of opposite charges, laminin hooks, things swimming in simple solutions, the mere affinities of things within a spatial manifold, and so forth. But, what I’ve been thinking about is this: at what point do we reach that level of matter where absolute, i.e., perfect, Space exists? Is absolute Space akin to spiritual matter? Certainly spiritual matter can pass through any kind of matter we can think of, no matter the thickness. And, every species of matter, or any conceived alloy of it, no matter how hard or how dense, i.e., diamond (at “10” on the MOHS scale) or 18:10 (or greater?) stainless steel (virtually incorruptible), has Space within it.

The question I have is, “Is this the ‘limit?’ Is there not yet one more (or more) level(s) of vacuum-perfection, or thing-perfection, that we know and have named, “Spirit?”

All of this is simple enough – almost grade school stuff. Pure Space is postulated into possibility because we are capable of envisioning it within an enclosure. I can, for example, envision myself traveling out into space with a fish tank and an extra piece of glass for a top. I can don a spacesuit, take the fish tank outside of the machine that got me there, then seal up the fish tank by putting the lid on it and sealing it to the other four, glass walls. We can’t see it, but, we know Space is there. It can only be made less perfect by allowing a leak. In the meantime, it co-exists with atmosphere almost in the same way that it co-exists with our atmosphere.

So, how can we be so sure that there are no such things as spirits or souls? How can we be so sure that there is no ultimate spirit, which we call “God?” I witness posters herein always requiring material proof. In the absence of such, they conclude that there are no souls, nor any spiritual posibility of a being known to us as God. There is no stretch to spiritual stuff from the postulated reality of a pure vacuum, or from the postulated reality of even less perfect vacuums.

Now, it looks as though all Things tend towards greater and greater entropy – until, ultimately, there can be places where no photons or any other quantum and even sub-quantum stuff exists. Of course, there are those places already: they exist in between: in between physical and material stuff, in between protons and neutrons, in between electrons and nuclei. They are there and we know they are there. We perceive no interaction with matter or the physical - that we know of - in the sense that we expect to have from our scientific understandings.

How is this wrong?

jd
Interesting, but no one can answer such a question, given your prefaces.

May I make this comment, however:

No one knows what is going on physically.

Not Newton, not Einstein, not anyone.

Newton has a good grip on the practical levels, of this earth, but fails miserably, in outer space.

Einstein has outer space down pat, but fails miserably, in inner space.

Quantum Mechanics, String Theories, General Gravity Theory are among the best ideas our best minds have - but, each is flawed, under experiential measure.

What we know, for sure, is that three dimensions and time are not the whole story.

What we know, for sure, is that everything dies, including our universe - and - is not replaced.

The why and how of it all is still anyone’s guess. 🙂

👍
 
Jano,

I am not a fan of the multiverse theories in which cosmologists use mathematical formulations and spectulations to create scenarios that have no need of a beginning of the universe, hence no need for a creation, and hence no need for a creator. I do, however, have a hope for the reality of parallel universes.

The multiverse theories generally are derived from the General Theory of Relaativity the modern physics most powerful tool for dealing with the cosmos.

Parallel universes are a consequence of the Many World Interpretation of the Schroedinger wave equation, the most powerful tool for dealing with the sub-atomic. It is interpreted to mean that each of use will live multiple lives and I personnally would not mind. I would love to fall in love with my wife again, to walk in a warm spring rain again, to hit a baseball once more, to see La Boheme again, to be with my mother and father again in the same tempral relationship as I knew them in this life, and that is only possible if I live the same life over again with a few unwanted wrinkles ironed out. And then again this is not anymore speculative that the speculation of more dimensions that 3-spatial, 1-temporal.

Thank you for your responses.
Yppop.
Yppop,
Let me clarify what I have in mind.

In my eyes the string theory does not exclude existence of God.
I am not sure if there are any parallel universes that have the same type of space time (x, y, z, t) attributes. If they are it seems they could be completely independent and it does not have to be ‘us’.

Having said that I do believe in ‘revealed’ dimensions that are unknown to us. It appears heaven, hell, angels, Jesus’s resurrected body, … have dimensions that are outside of our space time.

In this light let me repeat what I said in my previous post.
We recognize there is God.
God has no dimensions.
Then there are God’s creations. They have dimensions.
God’s creations in our space time (x, y, z, t).
God’s creations outside of our space time. These creations have dimensions that we don’t know.
Please, let me know if this makes sense.

If we go back to MDR - discrete and continuous space - explicate and implicate levels.
The question is; do both levels have (x, y, z, t) dimensions?
Could it be that implicate level has an additional dimension(s)?

… or here comes a wild idea - the implicate level has no dimensions - it’s God and therefore we can say Acts 17:28 “for in Him we live and move and exist”.

Your thoughts,
Jano
 
JD,
Sorry for the delay, in answering. Had a busy day yesterday.
The nous, as I recall is the mind, aka soul? Does the nous transform the s-points, in our minds, into the perception of material things, then?
When an animal is conceived it corpusculates nomos, the infinite nothingness that is conterminous with the universe. I call it nous, the Greek word that has several meanings. To me, nous is the spiritual component that is conterminous with the body, which over a spectrum of animal species is increasingly concentrated in the head until reaching a maximum in the brain of humans.

The mind is a two part object; the nous in the brain is the spiritual part; the neuronal circuits that create the language capability is the material part. I sometimes do an exercise that clarifies the dual nature of the mind. I close my eyes and think of a category such as fruit, or cars, actors, etc… Consider actors, with little stimulation my mind starts “picturing” the face followed by a name, or sometimes the name followed by a face. sometimes a face and no name, and other times a name and no face. That last combination is rare. The name is a discrete symbol, the associated face is a continuous image in caricature form. This familiar exercise: thinking of a name and picturing a quale: a face, color, tune, a fruit, etc. is an exercise of recall; picturing a quale and thinking of the name is an exercise of recognition. These two interactions, one discrete the other continuous strongly suggest the dual nature of the mind.

The soul is the form that nous acquires in each human. It is a form with a portal to the nomos and a connection through the neuronal circuits to the cells of the body. Sin originates in the cells of the body. Life is a continuing battle between body and the soul; between pleasure and joy, pride and humility, anger and peace, etc. The mind arbitrates.
And, because their s-points are not shared, but rather, merely in proximity, they can be easily separated. Whereas with continuous matter, a destruction of the sharing of s-points takes place.
By “shared” I assume you mean connected; then you are correct. S-points being those that are associated with discrete space are always separated. Matter is the manifestation at the explicate level of configurations of s-points at the implicate level. For example, at the implicate level, electrons and quarks are different specific configurations of s-points, there is one configuration for electrons and one for the up quark and one for the down quark. Two down and one up quark form a new configuration that becomes a neutron and two up and one down quarks form a new configuration that becomes a proton. Then the proton, quark, and electron configurations get together to form and atom configuration, the molecule configurations, then configurations of material objects right on up to the cosmic configuration that I call the cosmic s-frame. The cosmic s-frame is a single complex configuration of s-points in which a variety of local configurations represent the things we observe at the explicate level as stars, planets, rocks, trees, animals, etc. Having created these forms, God created animals, special forms, each an individual s-frame, in which a particle of the spiritual substance was corpusculated which, in the human, contains the qualia that we recognize as color, odor, music, smoothness, joy, dreams, and a thousand other sensations, feelings, and emotions. Without qualia we would be nothing but robotic zombies.
So, you see it as illusions tricked into non-illusions, that is to say, illusions tricked into Reality, right?
I guess you could call qualia illusions because they, after all, exist only in the spiritual component of the mind. Qualia certainly are not part of objective reality, they are subjective reality.

continued -
 
So, the properties of discrete space may consist of both matter, separately, or matter and its form, in composition. It is the nous that translates the composition of matter and form into that which is an intelligible composite. Do you see discrete space combining with continuous space? If so, do you suggest a mechanism? Or, is it a pure translation?
In the MDR, the stuff we experience as matter only exists at the explicate level; at the implicate level only both modalities of “space” exist. Discrete space exists as configurations of s-points that we experience as matter at the explicate level, The s-points are immersed in continuous space (nomos) that when corpusculated in a configuration of s-points that we observe as the body of a cell, becomes bios and animates the cell, and when corpusculated by a multicellular organism becomes nous and imparts consciousness to the organism.

I will answer the discrete/space combination question in my next post.
How is the universe expanding? Do you see the creation of s-points, or, the addition of continuous space to discrete space?
There is a very, very large but finite number of s-points crammed into the singularity. However close discrete points get to one another, there is always a gap between them. Expa

nsion of the universe is simply the expansion of the s-gap (the minimum distance between s-points). I assume that the s-gap distance is now the same as the Planck length, about 10^-34 meters. It was much, much smaller 14 billion years ago.
Yet, although each atom of like-kind is identical, each leaf of a tree is different.
Each s-point is identical; each atom of like kind is the same configuration of s-points; each leaf has a different configuration of s-points. The atom and the leaf are observed at the explicate level, the configurations of s-points are at the implicate level. It took me a long time to get this idea of what we experience as matter (and energy) is at deeper level nothing but discrete space.
Thus, the lunatic is lost! 🤷
I don’t think you are. You have come close to what I understand with most of your posts; I am merely rewording them in the language (much of it invented) I understand.

Thank you for your reponses, they stimulate my thinking.

Merry Christmas and God Bless you also.
Yppop
 
Jano
In my eyes the string theory does not exclude existence of God.
I am not sure if there are any parallel universes that have the same type of space time (x, y, z, t) attributes. If they are it seems they could be completely independent and it does not have to be ‘us’.
Parallel universes arise when a conscious observer makes a choice, so it is presumed that all the possible choices are made in parallel worlds that have the same dimension as the one you are currently experiencing. Let us say that you come to a fork in a road and you have a choice of taking either the left or the right fork. Let us say that you take the left and live a long life from that point on. The many world interpretation (MWI) contends another world exists in which you took the right fork and you were run over by a truck. Both worlds are equally real and both exist. However, both worlds are the same as far as object reality is concerned, hence are constructed in the same-space time.
Having said that I do believe in ‘revealed’ dimensions that are unknown to us. It appears heaven, hell, angels, Jesus’s resurrected body, … have dimensions that are outside of our space time.
Because Jesus had a material body, according to the MWI, He necessarily appears in each parallel world, but not necessarily at the same time and place. But here I will bow to whatever the theologians decide if and when they ever get around to dealing with the scientific theory of parallel worlds. Consequently, if you believe in paeallelworlds, then Jesus has the same dimensions as He had in this world. God the Father and Holy Spirit are formless, hence dimensionless.
In this light let me repeat what I said in my previous post.
We recognize there is God.
God has no dimensions.
Then there are God’s creations. They have dimensions.
God’s creations in our space time (x, y, z, t).
God’s creations outside of our space time. These creations have dimensions that we don’t know.
Please, let me know if this makes sense.
I agree that God has no dimension (Jesus incarnate excepted). I can’t imagine what dimensions creations outside of our space-time have. It sounds like you might want to do some theorizing along those lines. If you do develop a thesis and I am still around I’d happily critique it for you.
If we go back to MDR - discrete and continuous space - explicate and implicate levels.
The question is; do both levels have (x, y, z, t) dimensions?
Could it be that implicate level has an additional dimension(s)?
The implicate level is what happens within the universe at the ground of reality. It consists of both discrete space in the form of configurations of s-points immersed in the continuous space-like nomos. Nomos is that part of the infinite nothingness that is conterminous (occupying the same volume) with the universe. I think of the infinite nothingness as the Mind of God. So at the implicate level we have 3-dimensions of space and 1-dimension of time for both the discrete (s-points) part and the continuous (nomos) part.
…or here comes a wild idea - the implicate level has no dimensions - it’s God and therefore we can say Acts 17:28 “for in Him we live and move and exist”.[/QUO:shrug::shrug:TE]
Your thoughts,
Jano
In a sense we live in the nomos, a part of the inifnite nothingness, the Mind of God, that permeates the universe.
Thank you for your response
Yppop
 
Jano

Parallel universes arise when a conscious observer makes a choice, so it is presumed that all the possible choices are made in parallel worlds that have the same dimension as the one you are currently experiencing. Let us say that you come to a fork in a road and you have a choice of taking either the left or the right fork. Let us say that you take the left and live a long life from that point on. The many world interpretation (MWI) contends another world exists in which you took the right fork and you were run over by a truck. Both worlds are equally real and both exist. However, both worlds are the same as far as object reality is concerned, hence are constructed in the same-space time.

Because Jesus had a material body, according to the MWI, He necessarily appears in each parallel world, but not necessarily at the same time and place. But here I will bow to whatever the theologians decide if and when they ever get around to dealing with the scientific theory of parallel worlds. Consequently, if you believe in paeallelworlds, then Jesus has the same dimensions as He had in this world. God the Father and Holy Spirit are formless, hence dimensionless.

I agree that God has no dimension (Jesus incarnate excepted). I can’t imagine what dimensions creations outside of our space-time have. It sounds like you might want to do some theorizing along those lines. If you do develop a thesis and I am still around I’d happily critique it for you.

The implicate level is what happens within the universe at the ground of reality. It consists of both discrete space in the form of configurations of s-points immersed in the continuous space-like nomos. Nomos is that part of the infinite nothingness that is conterminous (occupying the same volume) with the universe. I think of the infinite nothingness as the Mind of God. So at the implicate level we have 3-dimensions of space and 1-dimension of time for both the discrete (s-points) part and the continuous (nomos) part.

In a sense we live in the nomos, a part of the inifnite nothingness, the Mind of God, that permeates the universe.
Thank you for your response
Yppop
Thank you Yppop,
Let’s focus on this thesis, our world.

I’d like to understand nomos. It seems if something is part of something else it means there are boundaries but they share the same units of measure, in this case space time dimensions.
If this is the case and nomos is part of the infinite nothingness - Mind of God then the infinite nothingness - Mind of God would have dimensions.
If the infinite nothingness - Mind of God is God and it does not have any dimensions then it appears nomos should be called as a creation of the infinite nothingness - Mind of God, God.

God bless,
Jano
 
Thank you Yppop,
Let’s focus on this thesis, our world.

I’d like to understand nomos. It seems if something is part of something else it means there are boundaries but they share the same units of measure, in this case space time dimensions.
If this is the case and nomos is part of the infinite nothingness - Mind of God then the infinite nothingness - Mind of God would have dimensions.

If the infinite nothingness - Mind of God is God and it does not have any dimensions then it appears nomos should be called as a creation of the infinite nothingness - Mind of God, God.

God bless,
Jano
Jano
Nomos is to Infinite Nothingness as Kansas is to the United States and both share the same space-time dimensions

Infinite Nothingness is infinite in two ways: in extent and in depth. Extent means its size; depth means into how many parts can it be divided. And here I must introduce some new terminology, namely, the Realm of Possibility. The Realm of Possibility is all that exists beyond the universe, it is the source of all possibilites; it is God.

Infinite nothingness is the substance of the Realm of Possibility. The Realm of Possibility is infinite in extent, Infinite Nothingness, the substance of the RoP is infinitely divisible .Since nomos is part of and consubstantial (a word that has recently reappeared in the Nicene Creed) with the Realm of Possibility, it is infinitely divisible, but finite in extent. I use the word nomos to identify the infinite nothingness that is conterminous with the universe. Kind of the way that the Caribbean sea is part of the Atlantic Ocean.

You may want to read posts #24 - 29 of this thread for more information about the relationship between rational and real numbers, discrete and continuous space.

Thank for the thought-provoking questions.
Yppop
 
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