Spacing the Sacraments

[Lapey]

How? Does Baptizing infants reduce the Sacrament in meaning to the child being Baptized? I would certainly say not.

Frankly, if you are looking for the emotional “kick,” it’s better to have Confirmation a few years after First Communion instead of in high school. Kids are much more likely to be enthusiastic at age 8 or 9 than when they are in their teen years and being programmed to be cynical and doubting.

I agree 100% here. This is not a “enjoy the event” kind of thing; this is an infusion of supernatural grace event. These “little ones” as Jesus would call them need these supernatural graces more than ever these days to help them stick to the truth of Mother Church.

Our diocese confirms in the junior year of high school, in my opinion this is too old (16-18). It has been for generations used as a method of “keeping them in CCD classes.” However, now most of our youth simply are pulled out by their parents as soon as they complete their first Communion.

I am the primary trainer and minister of Baptism in our parish now and I can assure you families are beginning to have a great problem finding qualified Godparents. I do not mention this because this is what I think confirmation is about, only to point out a symptom of a larger problem; most of our kids are not receiving the Sacrament.

In my opinion, Fargo’s past Bishop had it right; within the past few years he changed it to the 3rd grade. Infant baptism, 1st grade Holy Communion (I think it was 1st, or maybe 2nd), then confirmation in the 3rd grade. This would put the age at 8 to 9 years old and past the age of reason. He was commended by the Bishop of Rome, Pope B16 for returning the Sacraments of initiation back close to the way they should be, Baptism, Confirmation, then Eucharist.

Hopefully we will see a trend to this timing.

I believe we have gone wrong in the thinking that “this will keep them coming for education.” This is what it is all about in many instances, but this is not what the Sacraments are about. I would venture to say, we would have as many kids or at least not a much lower number right now in CCD than if we would have brought the age down 40 years ago rather than up. But this is pure speculation. Also key point to remember here, Canon Law states that the parents or the PRIMARY educators of the faith for their kids not the CCD program. All of the same education can be offered after Confirmation is conferred in the 3rd grade. JMHO…

To also address what was said earlier about possible heresy; I do agree that teaching Confirmation in a sense of it being an “adult acceptance of the faith” concept is not what the Sacrament is. This is a modern day type of thinking, it was never supposed to be the Protestant like “altar call” event where a teen comes up and acknowledges Jesus before others publically; this is bad theology taught by many, I have been guilty of talking like this in years past myself. This is not what Confirmation is.

 

[aemcpa]

I think cynicism and doubt are important to our faith. It’s a heck of an experience to wander and then to return. It seems a lot of people on this forum left and return and it has only made their faith stronger.

And a lot of people never find their way back and die in their sins. Man, what a rush that must be.

 

[stlcatholic86]

And a lot of people never find their way back and die in their sins. Man, what a rush that must be.

Way to misrepresent my point.

 

[tafan]

Way to misrepresent my point.

I think aemcpa gave it the nicest interpretation there can be. Taken more in context, as follows, I am totally taken aback.

I think cynicism and doubt are important to our faith. It’s a heck of an experience to wander and then to return. It seems a lot of people on this forum left and return and it has only made their faith stronger.

Cynicism and doubt are important to our faith???

from the Catechism

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

Voluntary doubt is a sin, so it is safe to say that involuntary doubt is still a danger to our faith. Cynicism seems to be the perfect word for “deliberately cultivating doubt”. As the CCC says, it can to spiritual blindness, which can certainly lead to never finding one’s way back.

Now, as the Newman said "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, as I understand the subject; difficulty and doubt are incommensurate. There of course may be difficulties in the evidence; but I am speaking of difficulties intrinsic to the doctrines themselves, or to their relations with each other. A man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, of which the answer is or is not given to him, without doubting that it admits of an answer, or that a certain particular answer is the true one. "

I never left the faith, but I went through a period where it was not important to me, and if pressed I would have expressed many doubts. I have never considered going through this phase a good thing in my life, I have always regretted it.

 

[Cider]

I wasn’t specifically talking about baptism in fact you and I agree that baptism should be done as early as possible, which is what I had stated in my post.

I’m not talking about an “emotional kick” I’m talking about the meaning behind free will. Yes kids might be more enthusiastic, but are all kids full formed on what it means to be confirmed or recieve the Eucharist. **I know when I was 7 I only had a vague notion of what first communion was and perhaps my class was an anomaly but most of carred more about our family celebrations than we did about receiving the sacrement. **

I think cynicism and doubt are important to our faith. It’s a heck of an experience to wander and then to return. It seems a lot of people on this forum left and return and it has only made their faith stronger.

Which is a good argument for the oldest tradition of the church to be maintained of baptism, chrismation and eucharist in infancy. It’s not about the party, it’s not about being the center of attention, and it’s certainly not about understanding the meaning of the sacraments. It’s about grace. One of the greatest arguments against waiting is that too many people are confused and have come to equate confirmation as similar to the protestants believers baptism.

And as someone who is a convert and has struggled with faith my entire life and yet is married to someone who was raised with and maintained a concrete faith in God I completely disagree that cynicism and doubt are important to our faith. If only I had a fraction of the concrete faith my husband has. My faith struggles have been a form of torture for me for much of my life.

 

[stlcatholic86]

I think aemcpa gave it the nicest interpretation there can be. Taken more in context, as follows, I am totally taken aback.

Cynicism and doubt are important to our faith???

from the Catechism

Voluntary doubt is a sin, so it is safe to say that involuntary doubt is still a danger to our faith. Cynicism seems to be the perfect word for “deliberately cultivating doubt”. As the CCC says, it can to spiritual blindness, which can certainly lead to never finding one’s way back.

Now, as the Newman said "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt, as I understand the subject; difficulty and doubt are incommensurate. There of course may be difficulties in the evidence; but I am speaking of difficulties intrinsic to the doctrines themselves, or to their relations with each other. A man may be annoyed that he cannot work out a mathematical problem, of which the answer is or is not given to him, without doubting that it admits of an answer, or that a certain particular answer is the true one. "

I never left the faith, but I went through a period where it was not important to me, and if pressed I would have expressed many doubts. I have never considered going through this phase a good thing in my life, I have always regretted it.

I worry when people justify the comments of others and describe them as “nice.” I will pray for you.

I wouldn’t expect the church to say it’s ok that one should doubt or have cynicism to our religion. Is there such a thing as involuntary doubt? In any case I’m not convinced doubt alone on Catholicism is sin, it may be, but I’ve never heard it labeled as such. Doubt is inherent with the nature of faith. No one can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God even exists we have to have faith and love that he does exist. I know that I do, but I know for a long time I didn’t. I don’t regret nor feel guilty that time away from the faith at all, it was a meaningful experience in it’s own right, especially to come to God and back to Catholicism on my own right under my own free will.

 

[jonathan_hili]

I’m not a big fan of the separation of Confirmation from Baptism, so I’d rather have the two combined at birth as in the East. Perhaps even Eucharist.

 

[stlcatholic86]

Which is a good argument for the oldest tradition of the church to be maintained of baptism, chrismation and eucharist in infancy. It’s not about the party, it’s not about being the center of attention, and it’s certainly not about understanding the meaning of the sacraments. It’s about grace. One of the greatest arguments against waiting is that too many people are confused and have come to equate confirmation as similar to the protestants believers baptism.

And as someone who is a convert and has struggled with faith my entire life and yet is married to someone who was raised with and maintained a concrete faith in God I completely disagree that cynicism and doubt are important to our faith. If only I had a fraction of the concrete faith my husband has. My faith struggles have been a form of torture for me for much of my life.

Perhaps then what someone needs to explain is how getting the sacraments at a young age infuses them with grace as though its some spiritual shield on the USS Enterprise.

 

[tafan]

I worry when people justify the comments of others and describe them as “nice.” I will pray for you.

I wouldn’t expect the church to say it’s ok that one should doubt or have cynicism to our religion. Is there such a thing as involuntary doubt? In any case I’m not convinced doubt alone on Catholicism is sin, it may be, but I’ve never heard it labeled as such. Doubt is inherent with the nature of faith. No one can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God even exists we have to have faith and love that he does exist. I know that I do, but I know for a long time I didn’t. I don’t regret nor feel guilty that time away from the faith at all, it was a meaningful experience in it’s own right, especially to come to God and back to Catholicism on my own right under my own free will.

Thank you for your prayers, always needed. And if the word “nice” bothered you, I apologize. I didn’t mean to cause you undue concern, just wanted to add my own explanation to why your statement was troubling.

Voluntary doubt is certainly a sin. "Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. " (from CCC) How can this not be a sin? One can question, but one cannot doubt.

A personal question: in your time away from the faith, did you lead as good as life as now? If not, how can you not regret it?

 

[Cider]

Perhaps then what someone needs to explain is how getting the sacraments at a young age infuses them with grace as though its some spiritual shield on the USS Enterprise.

From the CCC

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and coheir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

1285 Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the “sacraments of Christian initiation,” whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.88 For "by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed."89

1290 In the first centuries Confirmation generally comprised one single celebration with Baptism, forming with it a “double sacrament,” according to the expression of St. Cyprian. Among other reasons, the multiplication of infant baptisms all through the year, the increase of rural parishes, and the growth of dioceses often prevented the bishop from being present at all baptismal celebrations. In the West the desire to reserve the completion of Baptism to the bishop caused the temporal separation of the two sacraments. the East has kept them united, so that Confirmation is conferred by the priest who baptizes. But he can do so only with the “myron” consecrated by a bishop.100

1291 A custom of the Roman Church facilitated the development of the Western practice: a double anointing with sacred chrism after Baptism. the first anointing of the neophyte on coming out of the baptismal bath was performed by the priest; it was completed by a second anointing on the forehead of the newly baptized by the bishop.101 The first anointing with sacred chrism, by the priest, has remained attached to the baptismal rite; it signifies the participation of the one baptized in the prophetic, priestly, and kingly offices of Christ. If Baptism is conferred on an adult, there is only one post-baptismal anointing, that of Confirmation.

1292 The practice of the Eastern Churches gives greater emphasis to the unity of Christian initiation. That of the Latin Church more clearly expresses the communion of the new Christian with the bishop as guarantor and servant of the unity, catholicity and apostolicity of his Church, and hence the connection with the apostolic origins of Christ’s Church.

1322 The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation. Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation participate with the whole community in the Lord’s own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist.

 

[Cider]

The CCC on confirmation

1295 By this anointing the confirmand receives the “mark,” the seal of the Holy Spirit. A seal is a symbol of a person, a sign of personal authority, or ownership of an oblect.105 Hence soldiers were marked with their leader’s seal and slaves with their master’s. A seal authenticates a juridical act or document and occasionally makes it secret.106

1296 Christ himself declared that he was marked with his Father’s seal.107 Christians are also marked with a seal: "It is God who establishes us with you in Christ and has commissioned us; he has put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."108 This seal of the Holy Spirit marks our total belonging to Christ, our enrollment in his service for ever, as well as the promise of divine protection in the great eschatological trial.109

 

[Lapey]

Perhaps then what someone needs to explain is how getting the sacraments at a young age infuses them with grace as though its some spiritual shield on the USS Enterprise.

You are demonstrating that you do not understand the faith. Do we fight off evil by our own doing? Or, do we through the power of God and His Grace fight off evil in our lives.

God’s Grace is a supernatural force if you will; it is infused in us at baptism, Sanctifying Grace. In Confirmation we are “sealed with the Holy Spirit” and fully given the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts; they are not man made but God made. Confirmation makes perfect the Baptism already received.

Actual Grace is given by God for help in certain times and situations.

So, yes, just like a spiritual force field which if we participate in that Grace of God’s Spirit we will be protected in all things.

II. GRACE CCC

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

This is just part of the section of the CCC which speaks of Grace. Check it out!

 

[UncleBill]

Because the Church, in her wisdom, has decided that there is value to tying the last two Sacraments of Initiation to the Sacrament of Penance. This is not dogma; it changeable. But neither is it a capricious decision. There is value to making sure that a child has a grasp of what it means to be in a state of Grace for the continued reception of Communion. That’s why those three Sacraments are timed, traditionally, to the age of reason.

Now Confirmation has another issue which is mostly logistical. Since the Bishop is the ordinary minister of Confirmation, the Sacraments of Confirmation and Baptism are divided in time unless one happens to be a parishioner at the local Cathedral. I am all for a younger age for Confirmation but would not want to see Baptism delayed so that they could be done together.

Not true! This evolved over time as it became less convenient. This whole line of reasoning of we must understand is pure baloney! Who can really understand the sacraments? There is a reason why the Easterners refer to the sacraments as MYSTERIES! If the bishop can get to a parish every year to confirm 16 year olds…why not confirm all the infants who have been baptized since his last visit.

I think those who have posted that the real reason why these sacraments are delayed is to keep the kids in religious education are on to something.

 

[stlcatholic86]

You are demonstrating that you do not understand the faith. Do we fight off evil by our own doing? Or, do we through the power of God and His Grace fight off evil in our lives.

God’s Grace is a supernatural force if you will; it is infused in us at baptism, Sanctifying Grace. In Confirmation we are “sealed with the Holy Spirit” and fully given the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are supernatural gifts; they are not man made but God made. Confirmation makes perfect the Baptism already received.

Actual Grace is given by God for help in certain times and situations.

So, yes, just like a spiritual force field which if we participate in that Grace of God’s Spirit we will be protected in all things.

II. GRACE CCC

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

This is just part of the section of the CCC which speaks of Grace. Check it out!

I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know all of the doctrine of the church. I’ve only returned the faith in the past month and half. Ultimately I find you quite rude for continually pointing it out.

However, in this instance I do understand the concept of Grace, although I didn’t know the relevant passages in the Catechism. This still doesn’t undermine my point, which is it seems that God is always seeking to bestow grace upon us, but we must seek it out based on our own free will. Receiving Grace is a never ending journey. Thus my point is simply why force kids to receive all the sacraments as fast as possible when it in essence deprives them of their free will to be willing participants in receiving Gods grace?

 

[Corki]

However, in this instance I do understand the concept of Grace, although I didn’t know the relevant passages in the Catechism. This still doesn’t undermine my point, which is it seems that God is always seeking to bestow grace upon us, but we must seek it out based on our own free will. Receiving Grace is a never ending journey. Thus my point is simply why force kids to receive all the sacraments as fast as possible when it in essence deprives them of their free will to be willing participants in receiving Gods grace?

There is a difference between Sacramental grace and the “never ending” grace we receive. Sacramental grace is a conduit to daily grace. In particular, the Sacrament of Confirmation opens a person up to receive more fully the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

No one should be “forced” to receive a Sacrament. But that’s not the same as delaying a Sacrament until the child believes he or she is “ready” since there is no readiness criteria for Sacramental grace other than being in a state of grace.

 

[aemcpa]

Thus my point is simply why force kids to receive all the sacraments as fast as possible when it in essence deprives them of their free will to be willing participants in receiving Gods grace?

If you aren’t willing to make this argument for Baptism, than you have no reason to make it for Confirmation.

 

[stlcatholic86]

There is a difference between Sacramental grace and the “never ending” grace we receive. Sacramental grace is a conduit to daily grace. In particular, the Sacrament of Confirmation opens a person up to receive more fully the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

No one should be “forced” to receive a Sacrament. But that’s not the same as delaying a Sacrament until the child believes he or she is “ready” since there is no readiness criteria for Sacramental grace other than being in a state of grace.

Yet in essance forcing is what many people do. I don’t remember my Communion being a choice rather I was expected to do it. I think many young Catholics feel this “pressure” to conform. Not to mention I have known a lot that don’t take it seriously.

 

[mikeeh]

I’m curious: for those of you who support infant Confirmation, do you think it would be a good idea to call it Chrismation instead of Confirmation?

Your question as to why can’t they be the same has been answered already above

I am not sure what you are arguing here. Except that only the adults received confirmation?

I know. I’m just throwing out ideas to stir up debate, friendly debate. The disciples in hiding were adults who received Confirmation, so if we follow Christ’s example then Confirmation should be some time in adulthood. Of course in Judaism adulthood is 12-13, but the recipient should want to receive the Confirmation.

Let’s ask the Council of Trent.

**Canons On The Sacraments In General

Canon 1. If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ, or that there are more or less than seven, namely, baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, penance, extreme unction, order and matrimony, or that any one of these seven is not truly and intrinsically a sacrament, let him be anathema.

Canons On Confirmation

Canon 1. If anyone says that the confirmation of those baptized is an empty ceremony and not a true and proper sacrament; or that of old it was nothing more than a sort of instruction, whereby those approaching adolescence gave an account of their faith to the Church, let him be anathema.**

I’m going to go with “bad idea”.

Excellent and thank you. I learned something new. And with the fear of being anathema I recant my question on merging the two sacraments.

With all due respect, this shows your basic misunderstanding of the sacraments. The sacrament of Confirmation (Baptism, Marriage, and Holy Orders also) are not experiences. They are an opening of our soul to grace, continual grace. You are receiving the grace of the sacrament of confirmation now, as long as you accept the grace, just as much as the day you were confirmed. Hence, an early confirmation is important.

Maybe one could say: Your confirmation was not a great experience, it IS a great experience.

Receiving grace through Confirmation should be a great experience in that moment as well as throughout your life. I had my head up my butt in high school so Confirmation was a missed experience of grace, and I see a lot of same in the Confirmation kids now. It should be one of the greatest experiences of receiving grace. I do cherish it now. I just wish the Holy Spirit was directly leading me and not my mother leading me to Confirmation.

I think one has to be careful about this mindset. Receiving a sacrament is about entering into a life of grace, not having a singular “great experience.” Grace is never wasted. Even now, the graces and gifts you received at your Confirmation are at work in your life.

I think the simple fact is that we will never arrive at a moment where we fully understand a sacrament. How can you possibly expect to understand a sacrament without the grace of that sacrament to help you?

The Church’s requirements for understanding prior to receiving the sacraments are actually very basic. And this is as it should be. We shouldn’t expect people to be theologians or mystics before allowing them to partake of the life of grace. It is enough for them to have a basic understanding and a desire to receive it.

I apologize if I made it sound like grace was a waste. It certainly is NOT a waste. However, receiving grace through Confirmation should be a great experience in that moment as well as throughout your life. I had my head up my butt in high school so Confirmation was a missed experience of grace, and I see a lot of same in the Confirmation kids now. I agree a basic understanding and a desire to receive it is all we need, but a lot of teenagers don’t have the desire and without the desire it seems like they don’t have the basic understanding.

 

[Brigid34]

I’m one for Baptism and Holy Communion as infants, then Reconciliation at 7, then Confirmation at about 10. That would allow Grace to infuse into children (and we aren’t to “keep little ones” from Christ) for protection, at the times when they need them. It would also allow them Communion at the earliest possible time since Eucharist is necessary to have life in you.

Confirmation at 10, since that is when, developmentally, children are going to most ‘hear’ what is taught.

 

[Phemie]

I apologize if I made it sound like grace was a waste. It certainly is NOT a waste. However, receiving grace through Confirmation should be a great experience in that moment as well as throughout your life. I had my head up my butt in high school so Confirmation was a missed experience of grace, and I see a lot of same in the Confirmation kids now. I agree a basic understanding and a desire to receive it is all we need, but a lot of teenagers don’t have the desire and without the desire it seems like they don’t have the basic understanding.

Unlike Communion, which Canon Law says a child has to understand to receive, Confirmation can be conferred on newborns at the time of an emergency Baptism. A person who is unconfirmed should be confirmed if they are in danger of dying, whether or not they have received instruction. There is no understanding of any kind necessary to receive this sacrament. And really, having to have understanding to receive Communion is a discipline of the Latin Rite Church, not divine law or dogma.