Spanish language during English mass

[dustrunner]

Our parish is mostly anglo, but has dozens of Mexican families. Our priest does four masses each weekend, including one in another town. He is the only priest in two towns. He doesn’t speak Spanish well enough, and have enough time and energy, to add a special mass for our Mexican people.

During our masses, we frequently hear Mexican parishoners reciting the Gloria, Creed, Our Father, and responses in Spanish even though most of them are fluent in, or at least conversant with, English. Most of our Mexican families have lived in our town for a long time, and many of them 2nd and 3rd generation citizens of the United States. I asked our priest why they were doing this, and he said it was a form of “protest”, because he won’t do a Spanish language mass for them.

Has anyone else seen this happening? If so, how was the situation dealt with?

 

[brotherhrolf]

I can understand their “protest” but this is a consequence of VII. If the Mass was in Latin we wouldn’t have a “protest”.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

People will often say the prayer in the language which is most comfortable for them. If I’m at a Spanish Mass I’ll say the prayers in English because it requires less concentration on the words and allows for more prayerful thought. Since the Mass is no longer in just one language, Latin, as brotherholf says then what difference does it make if they recite the prayers in English or Spanish?

 

[otm]

brotherhrolf:

I can understand their “protest” but this is a consequence of VII. If the Mass was in Latin we wouldn’t have a “protest”.

No, it is not a consequence of V2; it is a consequence of obsinancy on the part of the priest.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

How is the priest “Obstinate?” The OP said that the parish was MOSTLY Anglo, AND that the priest himself was not fluent in Spanish. Further, is it not the decision of the bishop as to what language a Mass is offered in?

Additionally, the OP said that the majority of the people were fluent in English. Now, I can see adding some Spanish hymns (heck, we have them in VERMONT where the Spanish influence is pretty darn small), or arranging to have devotions in Spanish (I am sure the priest could say the rosary in Spanish without too much trouble), or having a special feast day Mass for a patron saint, etc., but this is NOT a question of a majority of the people being only Spanish speakers, and it CERTAINLY is not an “obstinate” gesture on the part of the priest to celebrate the Mass in English.

 

[puzzleannie]

people pray best in the language in which they learned to pray, for most of us our mother tongue. Your parish could invest in some bilingual missalettes, probably from the same company that supplies the ones you have now. Every diocese now requires that seminarians learn Spanish as part of their training and every priest in this country should be learning how to at least say Mass in Spanish. I would be interested in knowing what your bishop’s directive is in this matter.

Perhaps your parish could pair with neighboring parishes who have Spanish-speaking parishioners for a Spanish Mass at least once a month, or bilingual Mass on Holy Days etc.

There is no law that says you cannot recite the prayers of the people in your own language, English, Spanish, Polish etc., or even Latin if you wish to, that constitutes prayer, not protest.

 

[Roman_Army]

**I agree with PuzzleAnnie. That was probably just the priest’s assumption of why they’re doing that. It doesn’t have to be because their protesting, maybe they just like Spanish. Maybe the families are with older family members that don’t know english and they just want to help them feel welcome. Maybe they just don’t have the responses memorized in english. **

Whatever it is, the real problem is the lack of vocations. You should get your parish to encourage more vocations. Teach the kids that being a priest is a great honor. Show appreciation for your pastor and treat him nicely to show those in discernment that it’s not that bad to be a priest. Try to eliminate all of the fear of religion and encourage all to be more holy. Since the priest is overwhelmed, the lay faithful have an obligation to be active and host group studies and stuff. Don’t put all the burdens on the priest, get up and do what you can do. (I meant you as in the whole parish starting with you )

 

[brotherhrolf]

I don’t have any problem with the Mass in the local vernacular. I do think we have lost something with the loss of the Latin Mass - when the Mass was in Latin there were no vernacular difficulties. If the priest said “Dominus vobiscum” you didn’t have to know any other repsonse except “Et cum spiritu tuo”. Which would make all of these arguments unncecessary. New Orleans would have been totally confused if Mass was limited to the vernacular - French, Spanish, Gaelic, Italian, Croatian, German, Vietnamese, Lebanese, ad infinitum.

 

[dustrunner]

Our priest is extremely overworked. He tries to take one day off each week (and offers morning Mass on that day too), but half the time doesn’t get to take any time off to rest. We have about 800 families in our parish. Our area of California has three (3) priests to cover an area approximately 200 miles long. Our diocese (Fresno) has about 80 priests for 88 parishes and missions. Most of our Spanish speaking priests work in the Central Valley of California, which has the greatest concentration of people of Mexican descent.

I known for a fact, from some of my Mexican-American friends, that using Spanish in the English masses is a form of protest against not having a Spanish language mass. I can understand the need to pray in one’s own language, but people who speak fluent English should be able to use English during the Mass.

What is happening in our parish is symptomatic of the immigrant situation here in the Southwest. There are strong pro-Mexico sentiments among the immigrant population. This has led to violent confrontations in one of our local high schools, between Mexican and Anglo students. In many situations, the impression is being given, by some Mexican people, that they would prefer California to be part of Mexico again. In fact, we known of one high school teacher who, while trying to discipline a Mexican-American student, was told, “I don’t have to do what you tell me; this is Mexico now!” The Spanish language “protests” during English masses didn’t really become commonplace until the problems at the high school became apparent.

dustrunner:

Our parish is mostly anglo, but has dozens of Mexican families. Our priest does four masses each weekend, including one in another town. He is the only priest in two towns. He doesn’t speak Spanish well enough, and have enough time and energy, to add a special mass for our Mexican people.

During our masses, we frequently hear Mexican parishoners reciting the Gloria, Creed, Our Father, and responses in Spanish even though most of them are fluent in, or at least conversant with, English. Most of our Mexican families have lived in our town for a long time, and many of them 2nd and 3rd generation citizens of the United States. I asked our priest why they were doing this, and he said it was a form of “protest”, because he won’t do a Spanish language mass for them.

Has anyone else seen this happening? If so, how was the situation dealt with?

 

[Pentecost2005]

If it’s so important to the Hispanic communities to have the Mass in Spanish, and to have Spanish-speaking priests, then they need to do a better job in encouraging priestly vocations in their own communities.

 

[puzzleannie]

Pentecost2005:

If it’s so important to the Hispanic communities to have the Mass in Spanish, and to have Spanish-speaking priests, then they need to do a better job in encouraging priestly vocations in their own communities.

Until recently Hispanics faced discrimination entering many seminaries in this country and so this community is under-represented in the priesthood and hierarchy. It may interest you to know that many of the new priests coming to serve this country are from Mexico and Latin America, as well as the Philippines, Africa, Korea, India etc., so that countries that were once mission territories themselves are now sending priests to serve us.

US- born Hispanics are also entering seminaries at a rate higher than other ethnic groups, so you probably have a Spanish speaking priest in your future, as well as a Spanish Mass. Projections predict half of American Catholics will be Hispanic within 20 years.

 

[otm]

Tantum ergo:

How is the priest “Obstinate?” The OP said that the parish was MOSTLY Anglo, AND that the priest himself was not fluent in Spanish. Further, is it not the decision of the bishop as to what language a Mass is offered in?

Additionally, the OP said that the majority of the people were fluent in English. Now, I can see adding some Spanish hymns (heck, we have them in VERMONT where the Spanish influence is pretty darn small), or arranging to have devotions in Spanish (I am sure the priest could say the rosary in Spanish without too much trouble), or having a special feast day Mass for a patron saint, etc., but this is NOT a question of a majority of the people being only Spanish speakers, and it CERTAINLY is not an “obstinate” gesture on the part of the priest to celebrate the Mass in English.

The comment was made that the “protest” was a cosequence of Vatican 2. My answer wasa poplite way of saying “hogwash”. It wasn’t a result of Vatican 2, it was a result that the priest won’t say Mass, or even some of the commonly recited prayers, in Spanish.

He is an older priest; therefore the likelyhood is approaching 100% that he took latin in the seminary. Spanish isn’t that far removed from Spanish. It sounds as if he is using a lack of fluency as a means of doing nothing culturally for the Hispanics in the parish.

we can keep treating them as second class citizens in our oh so Anglo parishes, or we can treat them as fellow Catholics with a vibrant culture largely cenetered around the Church. There is a reason that the Evangelicals are recruiting Hispanics out of the Catholic Church; the Evangelicals see them as a significan part of the Body of Christ, while too often we treat them as the hired help who clean our toilets and pick our grapes and beans. In other words, as an appendage to the Body of Christ, one that we Anglos aren’t really ready to admit is a necessary appendage, even.

As to your comment aobut the Bishop and Spanish Masses - I may be wrong, but I thought dustrunner was from California, a state with a very large population of Hispanics. maybe the reason that there are “dozens” of Hispanic families in a mostly anglo parish is that the Hispanics are made to feel about as welcome at Mass as they areat that fancy party they cleaned the toilets and the rest of the house for?

Not all racism is blatant. the blatant racism is the easiest to confront; the subtle racism may be the one that does the most damage.

 

[otm]

Tantum ergo:

Further, is it not the decision of the bishop as to what language a Mass is offered in?
I went back and looked. I was right; this is occuring in California. I don’t think this is an issue with the bishop…

 

[davy39]

Tantum ergo:

How is the priest “Obstinate?” The OP said that the parish was MOSTLY Anglo, AND that the priest himself was not fluent in Spanish. Further, is it not the decision of the bishop as to what language a Mass is offered in?

Additionally, the OP said that the majority of the people were fluent in English. Now, I can see adding some Spanish hymns (heck, we have them in VERMONT where the Spanish influence is pretty darn small), or arranging to have devotions in Spanish (I am sure the priest could say the rosary in Spanish without too much trouble), or having a special feast day Mass for a patron saint, etc., but this is NOT a question of a majority of the people being only Spanish speakers, and it CERTAINLY is not an “obstinate” gesture on the part of the priest to celebrate the Mass in English.

I agree! The only ones being “obstinate” are the people, that for whatever reason, refuse to use the english language, even when they know it. I work in retail, and this happens a lot at the store.

 

[Joe_Monahan]

**Members are reminded of the importance of charity and the lack of it demonstrated in stereotyping, generalizations, and making assumptions about matters regarding which one is not privy to the full details.

The requirement that charity be exercised applies equally to discussion of both the priest and the congregants involved, as well as to the Hispanic-American community at large.

Joe**

 

[mgy100]

I would think disrupting Mass to push your agenda in any form is disrespectful. There are other venues of pursuit to bring a item up for review. By this I mean any form of disruption, wheter it be rainbow sashes, people speaking gaelic loudly during a hungarian mass…
The poor priest is overworked and underpaid. I know the local Roman Catholic priest here has one parish and is usually so busy he doesn’t know if he is coming or going…

 

[Brendan]

Quaere Verum:

Since the Mass is no longer in just one language, Latin, as brotherholf says then what difference does it make if they recite the prayers in English or Spanish?

What Vatican II really called for was for the use of Latin in such circumstances.

Sacrosanctum Concilium

1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

According to Vatican II, we all should be familiar enough with the Latin responses at Mass to say them when called for.

And since we would all know the responses in Latin, that would be the ideal language at a Mass for a linquistically mixed gathering of the faithful.

All may participate without favoritism and show the unity that Liturgists are so keen on.

 

[davy39]

mgy100:

I would think disrupting Mass to push your agenda in any form is disrespectful. There are other venues of pursuit to bring a item up for review. By this I mean any form of disruption, wheter it be rainbow sashes, people speaking gaelic loudly during a hungarian mass…
The poor priest is overworked and underpaid. I know the local Roman Catholic priest here has one parish and is usually so busy he doesn’t know if he is coming or going…

Just a short story. We have a few Spanish speaking people in our area that come to Mass. Recently, a mega-farm opened a short distance away, that hired mostly Mexican workers. A lot of them could speak very little english. A neighboring parish in Ind. has a weekly spanish Mass for them, but our priest wanted to do more. So he learned spanish. He recently retired, and now ministers to those people in their own language. I know something has to be done, or we will lose them to the evangelicals. They are far, far ahead of us in taking care of the Mexicans. But for them to disrupt Mass in that way is not the answer.

 

[otm]

davy39:

Just a short story. We have a few Spanish speaking people in our area that come to Mass. Recently, a mega-farm opened a short distance away, that hired mostly Mexican workers. A lot of them could speak very little english. A neighboring parish in Ind. has a weekly spanish Mass for them, but our priest wanted to do more. So he learned spanish. He recently retired, and now ministers to those people in their own language. I know something has to be done, or we will lose them to the evangelicals. They are far, far ahead of us in taking care of the Mexicans. But for them to disrupt Mass in that way is not the answer.

I think I would call the Rainbow Sash wearers (e.g.incidents in Chicago) a disruption.

I don’t think, unles they were using very loud voices to recite the prayers in Spanish, that this would qualify as a disruption, so much as a nuisance. If one is reciting the prayers and paying attention, as opposed to reciting them by rote, I would think that one would be able to recite the same prayers quite well in English even if standing next to a group reciting it in Spanish.

And you are certainly correct about the Evangelicals working hard to take care of the Hispanic population.

The Hispanics have not been catechized any better than the Anglos, and in some circumstances, not even that well, and they are easy pickings for someone with a passion for their faith who is willing to treat them as something more than just a nuisance.

there are some very simple things the pastor could do if he wished to act in a proactive, positive fashion towards the Hispanic community; things as simple as saying some of the prayers in Spanish on occasion, and even if only periodically, giving the homily in English and then having someone translate it and present it in Spanish (and that, by the way, is permitted, as it is not having a lay person give a homily, but is simply the reciting of the homily in a second language). If he is not fluent in Spanish, it is not necessary to say the whole Mass in Spanish. But it doesn’t take a whole lot of effort to make some accomodation to others.