"Spanish Masses" and organs: are they mutually exclusive?

[Lepanto]

For the purpose of this thread, I define a “Spanish Mass” as a Mass said in the United States in the Spanish language; and it is primarily attended by Spanish speakers of the New World (Mexico, Central, Caribbean, and South American nations). In other words, I’m not talking about Mass in the country of Spain.

I’ve attended probably 40 Spanish Masses over the past several years in several dioceses. I could not tell if the faithful were primarily of Mexican descent, Puerto Rican, Guatemalan, or from some other Spanish-speaking countries. I say this because I know that Spanish speakers are not a monolithic bloc. Mexican culture is different, say, from Bolivian.

Regardless, the one thing that does seem to be common in all of these Masses, besides the Spanish language, was the instruments used for music. Despite the presence of pipe organs in the churches, every single Spanish Mass eschewed the organs for acoustic guitars, and often also the piano. Sometimes other instruments would be used, too, such as trumpets and violins and percussion. But NEVER the organ.

Are Spanish Masses and organs mutually exclusive?

 

[ethelzguy]

For the purpose of this thread, I define a “Spanish Mass” as a Mass said in the United States in the Spanish language; and it is primarily attended by Spanish speakers of the New World (Mexico, Central, Caribbean, and South American nations). In other words, I’m not talking about Mass in the country of Spain.

I’ve attended probably 40 Spanish Masses over the past several years in several dioceses. I could not tell if the faithful were primarily of Mexican descent, Puerto Rican, Guatemalan, or from some other Spanish-speaking countries. I say this because I know that Spanish speakers are not a monolithic bloc. Mexican culture is different, say, from Bolivian.

Regardless, the one thing that does seem to be common in all of these Masses, besides the Spanish language, was the instruments used for music. Despite the presence of pipe organs in the churches, every single Spanish Mass eschewed the organs for acoustic guitars, and often also the piano. Sometimes other instruments would be used, too, such as trumpets and violins and percussion. But NEVER the organ.

Are Spanish Masses and organs mutually exclusive?

I think you make a good point with regard to music at Mass.

There is a lot of cultural influence. The instruments used at a Spanish Mass, may well differ from a Mass said in Africa, or China, or Australia.

Many of these differences are most likely cultural in nature, as opposed to a “banal” or “profane” use of music or instruments.

Thus, we should be careful about making broad statements as to what kind of music or instruments are “proper” for the Mass.

Even in the USA, a cathedral in Boston likely has access to and resources for grand organs, while a parish in rural Mississippi might be lucky to have three people willing to try and sing as a “choir” with an old spinet piano or accoustic guitar.

 

[Aramis]

The Spanish masses at Holy Family Cathedral in Anchorage did use the organ (tho’ it’s an electronic, not a pipe organ). I do not know if they do at the hispanic parish, Our Lady of Guadalupe, but since that parish was founded, the latino community pretty much moved there.

 

[JReducation]

I am from Latin America. The organ is not an instrument of common use in Latin culture, including Spain, Portugal and even Italy. You will find it used at times, but most liturgical music in these Romance languages was written to be sung with string, wind and percussion instruments.

Among the Hispanic and Portuguese the commonn instrument is the guitar. There is a rich tradition of beautiful liturgical music that is meant to be played with the guitar. One saint who used the guitar in liturgy was Teresa of Avila. In fact, she was a very good guitarist.

In certain parts of Italy the instrument of choice for worship was the mandolin. That’s why St. Francis of Assisi introduced the luadas into the mass. Laudas should not be confused with Lauds, the liturgical hour. Laudas is a hymn of praise that is sung with a mandolin. Francis of Assisi introduced it into the liturgy using the Italian language and he wrote several of these hymns which are still in use today and have been rewritten so that they can be played on the organ.

There is no prohibition against the use of the organ in a mass in Spanish, Portuguese or Italian, but it is not part of the liturgy in these cultures. It is becoming more common, but it is unlikely that it will ever replace the guitar among the Spanish speaking Catholics.

The guitar is considered to be a superior instrument by this culture. We have to admit, that a well played guitar is a beautiful thing. Unfortuantely, there are not many people out there who do more than strum.

But if you have ever heard a Miarachi group play, the guitars are very well played. Mariachi music is a combination of Native American and Spanish music which became very popular in the southern part of North America and Central America where there is still a significant population of Mestizos (Spanish & Native American).

In this part of the Hispanic world Mariachi music is considered to be an expression of love an is used only for love songs, both secular and religious love songs. Tradition has it that the guitar is never used for profane or vulgar music. That is a product of North American and British rock music.

Hispanic popular music shies away from violence, vulgar sex, drugs and so forth.

Hope this helps.

JR

 

[bpbasilphx]

**The organ is not an instrument of common use in Latin culture, including Spain, Portugal and even Italy. **

When I studied organ in coilege, I distinctly recall classical Spanish organs described as “large, brilliant instruments, with many ranks of reed en chamade (that is, the pipes were horizontal, not vertical, so the projected directly into the nave)” and even with two pedal boards; the seconary pedals would be like mushrooms or buttons behind and above the main pedals.

 

[puzzleannie]

IME it has more to do with the church and parish, its resources and music ministry, than ethnicity of the congregation or language of the Mass. Most of the popular Spanish language or bi-lingual songs (other than traditional songs from those countries) used in Spanish Language Masses in America today, at least that fill the missalettes and music resources, are produced by the same brilliant minds that gave us OCP and similar music libraries.

 

[benedictgal]

When the first rector assumed his duties at the Cathedral, the first thing that he did was get rid of the “mariachi” Mass. The music was of poor quality and the Mariachis had no interest in learning appropriate material for the Mass. It was the same old, same old.

The rector brought the organ into the fore and all of the Masses, regardless of the language, had sacred music. In fact, he got rid of the banjos and guitars.

When the new administrator took over, he brought back the same Mariachis that had been canned. Things went downhill fast. He replaced the organ and the music went south. What was worse is that the Mariachis hadn’t improved at all. Even more embarassing was the fact that two weeks into Advent, they were still playing the Gloria. This also happened during Lent.

When the new diocesan director for divine worship came on board, he was sent to the Cathedral. The first casualty was the mariachi group. He brought back the organist and things are a little better.

Whta doesn’t work well, at all, is when the organist was trying to adapt the Mariachi-inspired parts of the Mass. It’s awful. I told him to just stick with the traditional stuff. It works a lot better.

 

[JReducation]

**The organ is not an instrument of common use in Latin culture, including Spain, Portugal and even Italy. **

When I studied organ in coilege, I distinctly recall classical Spanish organs described as "large, brilliant instruments, with many ranks of reed en chamade (that is, the pipes were horizontal, not vertical, so the projected directly into the nave)" and even with two pedal boards; the seconary pedals would be like mushrooms or buttons behind and above the main pedals.

There are classical organs in Hispanic culture and they are beautiful. The point I was making is that they are not of common use, not that they are non-existent.

The guitar is still the preferred instrument in Hispanic music. As I said before, a well played guitar can be very beautiful.

JR

 

[JReducation]

When the first rector assumed his duties at the Cathedral, the first thing that he did was get rid of the “mariachi” Mass. The music was of poor quality and the Mariachis had no interest in learning appropriate material for the Mass. It was the same old, same old.

The rector brought the organ into the fore and all of the Masses, regardless of the language, had sacred music. In fact, he got rid of the banjos and guitars.

When the new administrator took over, he brought back the same Mariachis that had been canned. Things went downhill fast. He replaced the organ and the music went south. What was worse is that the Mariachis hadn’t improved at all. Even more embarassing was the fact that two weeks into Advent, they were still playing the Gloria. This also happened during Lent.

When the new diocesan director for divine worship came on board, he was sent to the Cathedral. The first casualty was the mariachi group. He brought back the organist and things are a little better.

Whta doesn’t work well, at all, is when the organist was trying to adapt the Mariachi-inspired parts of the Mass. It’s awful. I told him to just stick with the traditional stuff. It works a lot better.

We don’t have this problem in our parish and we have Mariachi. One of the friars is the liturgist for the parish. We have five different choirs. Brother gives the choirs the directions as to what is needed and appropriate for each liturgy and liturgical season.

JR

 

[Lepanto]

I spent part of 2004 in Spain and Portugal. I had the opportunity to visit many churches – from grand cathedrals to humble parishes. They all had organs.

I think the attachment to guitars is a Hispanic (Latin American) phenomenon, not European.

 

[JReducation]

I spent part of 2004 in Spain and Portugal. I had the opportunity to visit many churches – from grand cathedrals to humble parishes. They all had organs.

I think the attachment to guitars is a Hispanic (Latin American) phenomenon, not European.

You may be right. It may be stronger in Latin America. I don’t use the word Hipanic, because half of Latin America is not Hispanic. The Brazilians are offended when called Hispanics. Now that I think of it, I’m not sure what they prefer, guitars or other.

JR

 

[ProVobis]

**The organ is not an instrument of common use in Latin culture, including Spain, Portugal and even Italy. **

When I studied organ in coilege, I distinctly recall classical Spanish organs described as "large, brilliant instruments, with many ranks of reed en chamade (that is, the pipes were horizontal, not vertical, so the projected directly into the nave)" and even with two pedal boards; the seconary pedals would be like mushrooms or buttons behind and above the main pedals.

I had a recording of E Power Biggs playing at one of these Spanish churches. Very distinct and beautiful.

 

[rosebudsal]

Are Spanish Masses and organs mutually exclusive?

Nope. We use the organ a lot, at our parish church and definitely at our Cathedral. We also have trumpets. I love the trumpets. I wouldn’t say we have Mariachi Masses-- though we do sometime-- and they’re usually well done. We have a lot of traditional Spanish music in our churches.Honestly, I prefer the Spanish music over the English, especially the sappy stuff that is usually used these days.

 

[rosebudsal]

I spent part of 2004 in Spain and Portugal. I had the opportunity to visit many churches – from grand cathedrals to humble parishes. They all had organs.

I think the attachment to guitars is a Hispanic (Latin American) phenomenon, not European.

I don’t know, the guitar is a very huge part of Spanish Culture. Some of the most romantic music I’ve ever heard is Spanish Guitar music from Spain. We use it a lot in Mass where I live, but we also use the organ as well, especially at our Cathedral, which has an amazing choir.

 

[Sarabande]

The organ is not an instrument of common use in Latin culture, including Spain, Portugal and even Italy.

I studied music for a summer in Italy back in 2005. All of the masses I attended used their organs for mass, so I think it might be more of cultural thing in the Hispanic/Latin culture of the Americas rather than in Italian culture. But perhaps I was in a bubble and someone who is from Italy or is there often may know better?

 

[Sarabande]

I don’t know, the guitar is a very huge part of Spanish Culture. Some of the most romantic music I’ve ever heard is Spanish Guitar music from Spain. We use it a lot in Mass where I live, but we also use the organ as well, especially at our Cathedral, which has an amazing choir.

There is no doubt that Spanish guitar music is extremely prevalent. I have a few cds of classical Spanish guitar. Since I’ve never been to Spain, I can’t say what they do for mass there. I’ll have to ask my cousin who will be doing a year studying there to see what he finds.

 

[KingAlfred]

“I say this because I know that Spanish speakers are not a monolithic bloc. Mexican culture is different, say, from Bolivian.”

Nope. They’re all Spanish-based, and pretty much the same. The guitar is the favorite instrument of the Spanish, and therefore, will always be used in Spanish American Masses. In and around Mexico, however, the mariachi Mass is also very popular. Organs are a northern European feature of Mass. Hispanics love to sing, and strum their guitars. They lay claim to an old myth that all ‘true’ Hispanic men are naturally gifted singers, dancers and guitar players. Like all myths, it isn’t true. Nonetheless, they’ll build up a good sweat any chance they get trying prove it is.

 

[Lepanto]

“I say this because I know that Spanish speakers are not a monolithic bloc. Mexican culture is different, say, from Bolivian.”

Nope. They’re all Spanish-based, and pretty much the same.

Hmmm. The best way to offend and pick a fight with a Puerto Rican is to mistake him for someone from the Dominican Republic!

 

[JReducation]

Hmmm. The best way to offend and pick a fight with a Puerto Rican is to mistake him for someone from the Dominican Republic!

Hey watch that! I’m Puerto Rican and Jewish. OK, I was raised in Europe, but still.

Fraternally,

JR

PS. Yes I am as Roman Catholic as the Pope, not more, just . . . nevermind. You get my drift.

 

[KingAlfred]

Hmmm. The best way to offend and pick a fight with a Puerto Rican is to mistake him for someone from the Dominican Republic!

You’re right, but that’s just silly national rivalry. They’ll beat the tar out of each other after arguing in a common language – Spanish. Every region has its own version of cultural syncretism, due to the melding of different peoples with Spanish culture, but the dominant culture remains Spanish, nonetheless.