"Speaking AGAINST Islam is forbidden by the Church."

[BlestOne]

For the record, disucssion with Jews and Moslems have absolutley NOTHING to do with ecumenism or “pseudo-ecumenism.” (Don’t follow the wrong leaders about the issue of ecumenism!) Discussions with Jews and Moslems are part of inter-faith dialogue. Discussions with denominational Christians are relevant to ecumenism. Since we recognize that we do not share the Christian faith with those who practice Judaism and Islam, our role is to acknowledge and support the fact that they worship ONE true GOD. Beginning there has nothing to do with giving up our faith! On the contrary.

Catarina… First… I was responding to Mangy Dog about the ecumenism… and we WERE speaking of Christianity. Second, I am finding that you are twisting anything you can to achieve your point, and not very charitably I might add. Yes I am a Catholic, with a good understanding of my faith… but I also appreciate the good aspects of all religions as we are taught to do. You are arguing the wrong point here with the wrong person. I do share my faith with others of different religions. Mostly though I try to set an example of Christianity for them. I do not demean their religion but I certainly stand up for what I know is truth. But I do it with charity and love… Please stop nit picking everybody’s posts. You are not furthering the cause of Christianity acting like that.

R_Not… I totally agree with you and I do think it is important to question when we see things like that. I don’t think we ought to turn a blind eye, but I do believe in asking for clarification before I open up with both barrels… kwim? There are many hadiths and surahs that are scary and are definitely something to be wary of. I have been very blessed in my dealings with Moslems so far… most have been very peace loving and don’t believe in the surahs and hadiths like you listed… but I have admired their devotion to prayer and their personal moral standards (modesty). If I were to encounter some of the more radical types, I can only pray that the Holy Spirit guide me not to lose my cool with them (and maybe to keep my head ).

 

[R_not]

R_Not… I totally agree with you and I do think it is important to question when we see things like that. I don’t think we ought to turn a blind eye, but I do believe in asking for clarification before I open up with both barrels… kwim? There are many hadiths and surahs that are scary and are definitely something to be wary of. I have been very blessed in my dealings with Moslems so far… most have been very peace loving and don’t believe in the surahs and hadiths like you listed… but I have admired their devotion to prayer and their personal moral standards (modesty). If I were to encounter some of the more radical types, I can only pray that the Holy Spirit guide me not to lose my cool with them (and maybe to keep my head ).

No problem. As for both barrels, well - I guess I am not as subtle as some.

The problem with them saying that they don’t believe in the surahs and hadiths like I posted - how do you know? Deception is indeed sanctioned in the koran. And with only an individual here or an individual there saying that the violence is wrong - there is no mass movement, or a bunch of their clerics, speaking out against the violence. And that is because if you think that the Christians can get nasty with each other - we just talk. They lob off heads.

Here is what happened in saudi arabia when the Bible was discussed:
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/008992.php

Here is how anyone who says that maybe a discussion of other’s religions should be allowed is handled in the muslim world:
sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/05/03/INHA10C1TA.DTL

This last article, and the events, took place AFTER the Pope visited Saudi Arabia.

We can discuss all we want - good, bad or indifferent. But until the muslims start doing that WITHIN their own religion and start showing tolerance and stop their imperialistic goals - I would say that all our talk is just a bunch of nothing if we just talk without telling others of what islam is all about.

 

[catharina]

Yeah, I even study them with a group of people from the church. And I also discuss them with fundamentalists.

So their behavior - lying, slaughtering non-muslims worldwide, only worrying about their image and not doing anything to stop the jihadists and instead supporting it via muslim charities, etc - does not count? Even bin laden prays daily and worships the ‘one true god’. and calls for the death of infidels all the time. Look at Ahmadinejad - he prays for the ‘one true god’ and he sends in jihadists (hezbollah and his Iranian jihadists) to kill all the time - as do the saudis (hamas and the Palestinians).

Muslims in Darfur pray to the ‘one true god’ and they slaughter a very peaceful group of Christians there.

Could it be there is something wrong with their concept of a ‘one true god’? Something wrong with the teachings in their koran?

I have already posted about jihad - and in the closed website some quotes from mohammed which are not very nice to us infidels. I use ‘us’ because no matter what you think - you, and me, and any non-muslim - are infidels.

That you discuss the Gospels with fundamentalists is not surprising. That your view of the teachings of the Catholic Church is therefore not surprising either. If I recall from the other thread, one of your buddies named his “church leaders as Hagee, Swaggart, Parsley” and oh yeah, “the Pope.” Hagee and the Swaggarts are rabidly anti-Catholic - and he ignored currrent statements by the Pope. His choice; he’s not Catholic. You are.

To find your leaders among those who defame the Church: interesting.

 

[catharina]

thanks - I figured I would get an even more unChristian response from you.

You don’t have to apologize for the way you ‘feel’, just allow others to do the same.

Not tolerating those who disagree with you is very common these days.

I agree with Church Teaching.
I oppose the notion that someone can speak against Church Teaching with the pretense that the Church approves of his/herwords. If that’s intolerant, then I’m “intolerant.”

 

[catharina]

Catarina… First… I was responding to Mangy Dog about the ecumenism… and we WERE speaking of Christianity. Second, I am finding that you are twisting anything you can to achieve your point, and not very charitably I might add. Yes I am a Catholic, with a good understanding of my faith… but I also appreciate the good aspects of all religions as we are taught to do. You are arguing the wrong point here with the wrong person. I do share my faith with others of different religions. Mostly though I try to set an example of Christianity for them. I do not demean their religion but I certainly stand up for what I know is truth. But I do it with charity and love… Please stop nit picking everybody’s posts. You are not furthering the cause of Christianity acting like that.

R_Not… I totally agree with you and I do think it is important to question when we see things like that. I don’t think we ought to turn a blind eye, but I do believe in asking for clarification before I open up with both barrels… kwim? There are many hadiths and surahs that are scary and are definitely something to be wary of. I have been very blessed in my dealings with Moslems so far… most have been very peace loving and don’t believe in the surahs and hadiths like you listed… but I have admired their devotion to prayer and their personal moral standards (modesty). If I were to encounter some of the more radical types, I can only pray that the Holy Spirit guide me not to lose my cool with them (and maybe to keep my head ).

Repeating: “Discussions with Jews and Moslems are part of inter-faith dialogue. Discussions with denominational Christians are relevant to ecumenism. Since we recognize that we do not share the Christian faith with those who practice Judaism and Islam, our role is to acknowledge and support the fact that they worship ONE true GOD. Beginning there has nothing to do with giving up our faith!”

Al I did was correct your error. If that bothers you, so be it.

Pretending that an apporach to Islam has anything to do with ecumenism - or as you said “pseudo-ecumenism” - is erroneous. That’s pretty simple. You needn’t take it personally.

 

[catharina]

A fact is not a bash. An emotional response to someone such as name calling (eg: islamophobes, etc) is a bash.

For the record, the word bolded above is a word I’ve never used in my life.

 

[ChristopherL]

what
Are they saying “speaking against Islam is forbidden” ?

No, they are saying that Islam is evil and must be destroyed. I applaud them!!

 

[ChristopherL]

This “titled” line, taken out of context (of course) is from one of the most hate-filled threads that I’ve ever seen in any forum on CA. That thread was closed due to its failure in Charity.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=245934

That some boys and girls (they should get off so easily, as innocent children!) have joined together to bash/smash and assault Islam speaks for itself.

I quoted the Holy Father’s most recent comment on our stand in relation to Islam.

Now, I’ll quote a similar item - then I’m out of here:

"VATICAN - Benedict XVI tells the Bishops of Bangladesh: “the most important contribution we can bring to interreligious dialogue is our knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth, ‘the way, the truth and the life.’”
…
In addressing the subject of interreligious dialogue, Benedict XVI encouraged the Bishops of Bangladesh “to persevere with patient dedication to this essential component of the Church’s mission ad gentes. Indeed, much good can be accomplished when it is conducted in a spirit of mutual understanding and collaboration in truth and freedom… .

**
Consequently, the most important contribution we can bring to interreligious dialogue is our knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth, “the way, the truth and the life” (Jn 14:6). Dialogue, based on mutual respect and truth, cannot fail to have a positive influence on the social climate of your country. The delicacy of this task requires thorough preparation of clergy and lay people, first of all by offering them a deeper knowledge of their own faith and then by helping them to grow in their understanding of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and the other religions present in your region.**”

At the close of his speech, the Pontiff mentioned the upcoming celebration of the Pauline Year, “which will be for the whole Church a renewed invitation to announce with unfailing courage the Good News of Christ Jesus,” and he told the Bishops, “Like the first Christians, you live as a small community among a large non-Christian population. Your presence is a sign that the preaching of the Gospel, which began in Jerusalem and Judea, continues to spread to the ends of the earth in accordance with the universal destination the Lord willed for it. My prayers accompany you as you lead your priests, men and women religious and lay faithful along the path marked out by so many dedicated missionaries, beginning with Saint Francis Xavier, who brought the Gospel to your country.” (S.L.) (Agenzia Fides 13/6/2008)"

fides.org/aree/news/newsdet.php?idnews=15358&lan=eng

Maybe Pope Benedict XVI was saying we must speak against Islam? I missed that.

I shouldn’t have to mention this but the other thread (closed, thank God) presented specific quotes from documents of Vatican II and from the Holy Father stating clearly that our positions as Catholics, as Christians must be one that fully recognizes Judaism and Islam as religions that call all to worship the One True God. Words that assault Islam as a religion, are an affront against the living God. All Catholics must stand by that truth IF they are faithful Catholics.

(Edited)

The Pope himself has spoken out against Islam. Earlier Pope ordered the Crusades and YOU keep ignoring the Pastors mentioned. To sit around silently and let Islam spread and destroy Christianity it just plain stupid.

 

[ChristopherL]

Speaking against terrorism is understandable.

Speaking against Judaism and/or Islam is to go against Chruch Teaching.

Good bye now.

Islam breeds terrorism. But you are ignorant on Islam and defending an ideology that wants you dead or dominated.

 

[catharina]

what
Are they saying “speaking against Islam is forbidden” ?

As to what the Holy Father is actually saying, see Post # 20. Unless of course, you’re not Catholic and think that Hagee, the Swaggarts, etc., stand on equal footing with the Pope.

 

[ChristopherL]

Greetings all.

For those who are unfamiliar with me, I’m a Muslim living in the UK.

From what I’ve seen the moderation in this section of the forums seems very light, so I think it should serve as testafrment to just how bad things were getting in that thread that a moderator had to step in and close it.

I live in an area where there’s a relatively high Catholic population. My elder brother and sister were both educated in a local Catholic school, as do my sister’s children now. I’ve gotten to know several Catholics quite well in the short time I’ve lived on this Earth, and I’ve found them all to be friendly, charitable people who have been a pleasure to been around; I’ve always had a good opinion of Catholics, and the experience of my occasional postings on this site are not going to change that.

But had I not already knew many Catholics and had a good opinion of them before I started posting here, I honestly don’t think I would have left with a good opinion of you guys, sorry. There is a strain of very vocal posters on this site (particularly in this section of the forums) who frankly give a downright scary impression of Catholicism. I don’t think these people are representative of Catholicism nor are they inline your Church’s teaching, and I think it would be a real shame if a Muslim (or any other non-Catholic) came across them and thought ‘so that’s what Catholics are like’, but I really don’t see how that’s not going to happen with how things are around here. The way some of the Catholics post here leaves you feeling genuinely hated and despised, or at best thought of as a naive fool.

If you guys want people of other religions who visit this site to leave with a higher opinion of Catholics and the Catholic Church than when they arrived, then there are going to have to be some big chances round here. Just some sincere advice from an outsider.

Peace, and may God forgive us our sins.

Your words do not change all the problems that Islam is causing across the world. Especailly the U.K.
Your last paragraph is nothing more then a con. We should lie to oursleves about Islam, just to be liked by Muslims. Personally I do not care what you think about me.

 

[catharina]

The Pope himself has spoken out against Islam. Earlier Pope ordered the Crusades and YOU keep ignoring the Pastors mentioned. To sit around silently and let Islam spread and destroy Christianity it just plain stupid.

The Pope has spoken against the mis-use of Islam to support terror.

(What century are you living iin? Is it 2008 where you are?)

 

[ChristopherL]

Repeating: “Discussions with Jews and Moslems are part of inter-faith dialogue. Discussions with denominational Christians are relevant to ecumenism. Since we recognize that we do not share the Christian faith with those who practice Judaism and Islam, our role is to acknowledge and support the fact that they worship ONE true GOD. Beginning there has nothing to do with giving up our faith!”

Al I did was correct your error. If that bothers you, so be it.

Pretending that an apporach to Islam has anything to do with ecumenism - or as you said “pseudo-ecumenism” - is erroneous. That’s pretty simple. You needn’t take it personally.

You must be kidding me. Inter-faith dialogue means NOTHING. The Islamic agenda moves forward. Islam allows lying and the breaking of treaties. Talking to them is a waste of time.

 

[BlestOne]

Al I did was correct your error. If that bothers you, so be it.

Pretending that an apporach to Islam has anything to do with ecumenism - or as you said “pseudo-ecumenism” - is erroneous. That’s pretty simple. You needn’t take it personally.

Again Catharina… I WAS talking about Christianity… I didn’t err… YOU DID. I suggest you reread the context in which that was said.

 

[exoflare]

First of all, I have to say I’m really surprised at how many responses this thread got before I even had a chance to look at any of them!

This “titled” line, taken out of context (of course) is from one of the most hate-filled threads that I’ve ever seen in any forum on CA. That thread was closed due to its failure in Charity.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=245934

Be careful when you declare something is “out of context”, especially when you yourself cite the thread where your quote came from. Not everyone will just blindly take your word for it, and many will look for themselves and see that the statement was NOT out of context after all. Even if the thread was closed, your comment is still there for all to see if they want to… so that speaks for itself.

That some boys and girls (they should get off so easily, as innocent children!) have joined together to bash/smash and assault Islam speaks for itself.

Maybe. But does that do anything to back your claim that “speaking against Islam is forbidden by the Church”? Nothing whatsoever.

I quoted the Holy Father’s most recent comment on our stand in relation to Islam.

Now, I’ll quote a similar item - then I’m out of here:

"VATICAN - Benedict XVI tells the Bishops of Bangladesh: “the most important contribution we can bring to interreligious dialogue is our knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth, ‘the way, the truth and the life.’”
…
In addressing the subject of interreligious dialogue, Benedict XVI encouraged the Bishops of Bangladesh “to persevere with patient dedication to this essential component of the Church’s mission ad gentes. Indeed, much good can be accomplished when it is conducted in a spirit of mutual understanding and collaboration in truth and freedom… .

**
Consequently, the most important contribution we can bring to interreligious dialogue is our knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth, “the way, the truth and the life” (Jn 14:6). Dialogue, based on mutual respect and truth, cannot fail to have a positive influence on the social climate of your country. The delicacy of this task requires thorough preparation of clergy and lay people, first of all by offering them a deeper knowledge of their own faith and then by helping them to grow in their understanding of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and the other religions present in your region.**”

At the close of his speech, the Pontiff mentioned the upcoming celebration of the Pauline Year, “which will be for the whole Church a renewed invitation to announce with unfailing courage the Good News of Christ Jesus,” and he told the Bishops, “Like the first Christians, you live as a small community among a large non-Christian population. Your presence is a sign that the preaching of the Gospel, which began in Jerusalem and Judea, continues to spread to the ends of the earth in accordance with the universal destination the Lord willed for it. My prayers accompany you as you lead your priests, men and women religious and lay faithful along the path marked out by so many dedicated missionaries, beginning with Saint Francis Xavier, who brought the Gospel to your country.” (S.L.) (Agenzia Fides 13/6/2008)"

fides.org/aree/news/newsdet.php?idnews=15358&lan=eng

Which again, never forbids saying anything bad about Islam.

Maybe Pope Benedict XVI was saying we must speak against Islam? I missed that.

Maybe you’re changing the subject again? I certainly didn’t miss that.

I never stated that our Pope ever ordered us to speak against Islam… But you claim that (if not the Pope himself) the Church somehow forbid us to speak against Islam. We’re still waiting for some kind of evidence for this.

I shouldn’t have to mention this but the other thread (closed, thank God) presented specific quotes from documents of Vatican II and from the Holy Father stating clearly that our positions as Catholics, as Christians must be one that fully recognizes Judaism and Islam as religions that call all to worship the One True God. Words that assault Islam as a religion, are an affront against the living God. All Catholics must stand by that truth IF they are faithful Catholics.

(Edited)

You’re projecting your own novel additions onto these. You (like so many other people) took a few “silver-lining” type polite references to Islam… but then made the logical stretch that, “if they say ONE positive thing about Islam, that must mean EVERYTHING we say about Islam must be positive!”

 

[ChristopherL]

The Pope has spoken against the mis-use of Islam to support terror.

(What century are you living iin? Is it 2008 where you are?)

Unlike you, I live in reality and my head is not in the sand. All of us should sit around silently while Christians are persecuted in Islamic countries because of Islam because YOU say so. You are not a Christian leader. Hagee, Parsley, Graham and Swaggart are. And they are all speaking out. Thank God for them.

Here is the POPE speaking AGAINST Islam.

Pope Benedict XVI believes that unlike other religions, Islam cannot be reformed and, therefore, is incompatible with democracy, according to a Catholic leader who participated with the pontiff in a secretive meeting on the subject.
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48464

Pope on Islam.

“He said, I quote, ‘Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.’”

The Organization of the Islamic Conference, in a statement released Thursday, said it “regrets the quotations cited by the pope on the Life of the Honorable Prophet Mohammed, and what he referred to as ‘spreading’ Islam ‘by the sword.’”

cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/15/pope.islam/index.html

If you cannot even speak about a problem, there is no way you can solve the problem.
End of story.

 

[catharina]

First of all, I have to say I’m really surprised at how many responses this thread got before I even had a chance to look at any of them!

Be careful when you declare something is “out of context”, especially when you yourself cite the thread where your quote came from. Not everyone will just blindly take your word for it, and many will look for themselves and see that the statement was NOT out of context after all. Even if the thread was closed, your comment is still there for all to see if they want to… so that speaks for itself.

Maybe. But does that do anything to back your claim that “speaking against Islam is forbidden by the Church”? Nothing whatsoever.

Which again, never forbids saying anything bad about Islam.

Maybe you’re changing the subject again? I certainly didn’t miss that.

I never stated that our Pope ever ordered us to speak against Islam… But you claim that (if not the Pope himself) the Church somehow forbid us to speak against Islam. We’re still waiting for some kind of evidence for this.

You’re projecting your own novel additions onto these. You (like so many other people) took a few “silver-lining” type polite references to Islam… but then made the logical stretch that, “if they say ONE positive thing about Islam, that must mean EVERYTHING we say about Islam must be positive!”

I’m glad the thread still stands and can be viewed.
It’s ugly and vicious beyond telling.

When the Holy Father starts bashing the religion of Islam. we’re free to follow him in that.

Unitl then, it is supposed to be OFF-LIMITS.

(Did you used to sneak into movie theatres and golf clubs? This is above that.)

 

[ChristopherL]

I’m glad the thread still stands and can be viewed.
It’s ugly and vicious beyond telling.

When the Holy Father starts bashing the religion of Islam. we’re free to follow him in that.

Unitl then, it is supposed to be OFF-LIMITS.

(Did you used to sneak into movie theatres and golf clubs? This is above that.)

Ummm…you might want to read the post above and YOU should call true Christian leaders like Parsley who has 15 million followers that he is wrong.

Who are you to tell people what and what not to say anyway? Ever hear of freedom of speech? God gave us the will to protect ourselves and that including speaking out against an ideology that is out to destroy us.

 

[exoflare]

When the Holy Father starts bashing the religion of Islam. we’re free to follow him in that.

Unitl then, it is supposed to be OFF-LIMITS.

First, I’m not even talking about “bashing”. Again, you change the subject. What’s in question is our general right to state anything negative about Islam.

It’s off limits BASED ON WHAT? Could you please reference the Church teaching for us, which states, “you can’t do anything at all, unless the Pope has done it before”? Or at least something that would clear up this seeming jump in reasoning?

(Did you used to sneak into movie theatres and golf clubs? This is above that.)

Another red herring. Would you believe I’m not surprised?

 

[R_not]

That you discuss the Gospels with fundamentalists is not surprising. That your view of the teachings of the Catholic Church is therefore not surprising either. If I recall from the other thread, one of your buddies named his “church leaders as Hagee, Swaggart, Parsley” and oh yeah, “the Pope.” Hagee and the Swaggarts are rabidly anti-Catholic - and he ignored currrent statements by the Pope. His choice; he’s not Catholic. You are.

To find your leaders among those who defame the Church: interesting.

Until you can answer to me what you are accusing us of - I think you have nothing to say to me.

You can judge me all you want. You insert people that I don’t even know abut - or do not even listen to to know what you are talking about. I have fundamentalist relatives and friends at work - so EXCUUUUSE the heck out of me! You don’t even know of my view of anything because you cannot stand that I refuse to remain ignorant of islam.

Please answer the questions and stop preaching to me about some made up things.