"Speaking AGAINST Islam is forbidden by the Church."

[inJESUS]

I still do not understand. What does speaking against Islam mean? if i say the Quran is not from God, am i speaking against Islam? if i say Muhammad was no prophet, am i speaking against Islam? if i say he who brings a different gospel, let him be anathema, am i speaking against Islam? i think we must define things before discussing.

 

[catharina]

Unlike you, I live in reality and my head is not in the sand. All of us should sit around silently while Christians are persecuted in Islamic countries because of Islam because YOU say so. You are not a Christian leader. Hagee, Parsley, Graham and Swaggart are. And they are all speaking out. Thank God for them.

Here is the POPE speaking AGAINST Islam.

Pope Benedict XVI believes that unlike other religions, Islam cannot be reformed and, therefore, is incompatible with democracy, according to a Catholic leader who participated with the pontiff in a secretive meeting on the subject.
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48464

Pope on Islam.

“He said, I quote, ‘Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.’”

The Organization of the Islamic Conference, in a statement released Thursday, said it “regrets the quotations cited by the pope on the Life of the Honorable Prophet Mohammed, and what he referred to as ‘spreading’ Islam ‘by the sword.’”

cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/15/pope.islam/index.html

If you cannot even speak about a problem, there is no way you can solve the problem.
End of story.

Contradiction in terms. There was no “secret meeting” if people are “quoting” it.

Pope Benedict XVI on June 13 2008:

VATICAN - Benedict XVI tells the Bishops of Bangladesh: “the most important contribution we can bring to interreligious dialogue is our knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth, ‘the way, the truth and the life.’”

Vatican City (Agenzia Fides) – “Bishops are called to be patient, mild and gentle in the spirit of the beatitudes. In this way they lead others to see all human realities in the light of the Kingdom of Heaven… Many of your people suffer from poverty, isolation or discrimination, and they look to you for spiritual guidance that will lead them to recognize in faith, and to experience in anticipation, that they are truly blessed by God.” These were the words of the Holy Father Benedict XVI in addressing the Bangladesh Bishops’ Conference, whom he received in an audience on June 12, on the occasion of their ad limina apostolorum visit.

The Pope congratulated the Bishops for their generous love for God, their care for the people that the Lord has entrusted to them, and for their unity in the Holy Spirit. He then spoke of the task entrusted them: the effective transmission of the deposit of Faith. He expressed his gratitude for their efforts to “to ensure that your lay catechists are sufficient in number, well prepared and given due recognition by the faithful… their example and dedication will draw other lay men and women to a more active role in the Church’s apostolates.” As to the reception of the Sacraments, today and always it is most important to prepare “young men and women to recognize the Sacrament of Matrimony as a life-long covenant of faithful love and as a path to holiness,” the Pope said. “There is an urgent need on the part of all Christians to reassert the joy of total self-giving in response to the radical call of the Gospel.”
…

Consequently, the most important contribution we can bring to interreligious dialogue is our knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth, “the way, the truth and the life” (Jn 14:6). Dialogue, based on mutual respect and truth, cannot fail to have a positive influence on the social climate of your country. The delicacy of this task requires thorough preparation of clergy and lay people, first of all by offering them a deeper knowledge of their own faith and then by helping them to grow in their understanding of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and the other religions present in your region.” "

PS -
You’re quite correct that in no way are Hagee, Swaggart, etc., my “Church leaders.”

 

[catharina]

I still do not understand. What does speaking against Islam mean? if i say the Quran is not from God, am i speaking against Islam? if i say Muhammad was no prophet, am i speaking against Islam? if i say he who brings a different gospel, let him be anathema, am i speaking against Islam? i think we must define things before discussing.

We are called to spread the Gospel, the good news.
We are not called to bash others who also worship the Living God.

Some folks get their kicks from ugliness, from speading hate when they should spread love.

 

[exoflare]

I still do not understand. What does speaking against Islam mean? if i say the Quran is not from God, am i speaking against Islam? if i say Muhammad was no prophet, am i speaking against Islam? if i say he who brings a different gospel, let him be anathema, am i speaking against Islam? i think we must define things before discussing.

That’s a good idea. Lets wait for some clarification on this. My impression was that “speaking against” Islam includes saying anything that isn’t going out of your way to portray Islam in a positive light. Also, not purposefully ignoring suras or hadiths that you know would be looked upon in a negative light. That was how I saw it.

EDIT: It looks like I spoke too soon. Apparently she doesn’t want to answer this question directly, either.

 

[ChristopherL]

Contradiction in terms. There was no “secret meeting” if people are “quoting” it.

Pope Benedict XVI on June 13 2008:

VATICAN - Benedict XVI tells the Bishops of Bangladesh: “the most important contribution we can bring to interreligious dialogue is our knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth, ‘the way, the truth and the life.’”

Vatican City (Agenzia Fides) – “Bishops are called to be patient, mild and gentle in the spirit of the beatitudes. In this way they lead others to see all human realities in the light of the Kingdom of Heaven… Many of your people suffer from poverty, isolation or discrimination, and they look to you for spiritual guidance that will lead them to recognize in faith, and to experience in anticipation, that they are truly blessed by God.” These were the words of the Holy Father Benedict XVI in addressing the Bangladesh Bishops’ Conference, whom he received in an audience on June 12, on the occasion of their ad limina apostolorum visit.

The Pope congratulated the Bishops for their generous love for God, their care for the people that the Lord has entrusted to them, and for their unity in the Holy Spirit. He then spoke of the task entrusted them: the effective transmission of the deposit of Faith. He expressed his gratitude for their efforts to “to ensure that your lay catechists are sufficient in number, well prepared and given due recognition by the faithful… their example and dedication will draw other lay men and women to a more active role in the Church’s apostolates.” As to the reception of the Sacraments, today and always it is most important to prepare “young men and women to recognize the Sacrament of Matrimony as a life-long covenant of faithful love and as a path to holiness,” the Pope said. “There is an urgent need on the part of all Christians to reassert the joy of total self-giving in response to the radical call of the Gospel.”
…

Consequently, the most important contribution we can bring to interreligious dialogue is our knowledge of Jesus of Nazareth, “the way, the truth and the life” (Jn 14:6). Dialogue, based on mutual respect and truth, cannot fail to have a positive influence on the social climate of your country. The delicacy of this task requires thorough preparation of clergy and lay people, first of all by offering them a deeper knowledge of their own faith and then by helping them to grow in their understanding of Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and the other religions present in your region.” "

PS -
You’re quite correct that in no way are Hagee, Swaggart, etc., my “Church leaders.”

ummmmm…the Pope said it. Keep trying to spin it.

Don’t really care who you think leaders are. YOU are part of the problem.
I will continue to speak out.

Have a good day.

 

[ChristopherL]

That’s a good idea. Lets wait for some clarification on this. My impression was that “speaking against” Islam includes saying anything that isn’t going out of your way to portray Islam in a positive light. Also, not purposefully ignoring suras or hadiths that you know would be looked upon in a negative light. That was how I saw it.

EDIT: It looks like I spoke too soon. Apparently she doesn’t want to answer this question directly, either.

I agree, she wants everyone to sugar coat it. So she can justify herself not speaking out. It is all about her.

Gotta run, have a great day.

 

[inJESUS]

We are called to spread the Gospel, the good news.

We are not called to bash others who also worship the Living God.

 

[R_not]

As I said before - many are ok with bashing Christianity and Judaism. And it seems to be going on here. personally, I don’t know that much about the evangelicals, but I have been accused of - what? - I am not even sure of. And if we touch islam, whooooaaaa - then some think that should be totally off limits.

pssst, this is the ‘non Catholic religions’ thread!

If you want to bash the evangelicals be more specific. I have heard some things that they have said and whenever I hear something wrong - I straighten it up. For example, us Catholics praying to statues. I have discussed this on another thread what discussions I have had about this and other misconceptions. But, I don’t denigrate them.

I do have a problem with islam since so many muslims are only worrying about its image while doing nothing to change the laws that infidels have no rights in muslim majority lands. And then the muslims are bringing their sharia laws here. We had a discussion about polygamy, ‘honor killings’, etc. and there has been no real answer to why they think they should thumb their noses at the laws of the land that they reside in. Instead we read that they are bringing such things here to our lands. here is a search on polygamy I did on jihadwatch. Look, and read, some of the articles that abound:
google.com/cse?cx=013255222075609514560%3Ayu16amghxpi&q=polygamy

At least one of the articles goes into the fact that there are about 10,000 polygamous families in France. In the USA, we hear about the Mormons and their polygamy - but this one was only mentioned on jihadwatch:
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021368.php

and take note of the number of polygamists said to be in our land from the above article - 50,000 to 100,000.
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021196.php

this one is about a slave found held captive in a muslim home:
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/012042.php

There is already a saudi couple in Denver in jail for bringing over their slave.

So, just obeying the wish to stay ignorant of all of this - is to me, very insane indeed.

And now I suppose that I will be called some more names and accused of some other things. It all gets very imaginative for those who don’t like to have others disagree with them.

 

[catharina]

what does bash mean? name calling people or pointing out false teachings?

 

[inJESUS]

Catharina, aren’t you somehow mixing bashing humans with bashing teachings? when the apostles talk about false prophets and gospels, are they bashing?

 

[catharina]

Catharina, aren’t you somehow mixing bashing humans with bashing teachings? when the apostles talk about false prophets and gospels, are they bashing?

I’m truly not doing that.

Whe we speak of false teachings, we speak of atheism, communism, devil worship, etc…

We do not stop and take our grace and our time to denigrate other religions that already practice the worship of the one and only Living God. The Church has taugh this explicitly in the documents of Vatican II but I’d already learned it from the Dominicans in 1950. It is NOT new.

Spreading the Good News is NOT attacking other faiths where God is indeed worshipped!

This is Catholic Teaching that the ridiculously angry/fearful wish to ignore for whatever reason.

 

[R_not]

How can we who are baptized in Faith call for the ridicule and rejection of those who practice an incomplete Faith but nonetheless worship the Living God?

that is the whole problem - it is not the ‘Living God’ that they worship. It is allah, and I am not just having a problem with the name that they chose to call it. I have already given you what mohammed took as their god - the moon god that many Arabs worshipped, along with a patheon of gods and goddesses, at the time of mohammed. mohammed pared it down to one god - the main god - al-ilah the moon god. mohammed was a pagan who did not know the Bible. He threw in the bible stories that he heard and - if you read the koran - you would see it right off. the stories are kludgy and not even the same in many instances.

But, you won’t read.

And this is why the heart of the problem of all the terrorism (if you only want to use one tactic against us) abounds in islam - because mohammed said that WE were the ones that changed the Bible and therefore will go to hades. And he said that if muslims changed his words then the muslims will go to hades.

And his words were set into what we know as the koran after he died. And there were two phases of the koran - the peaceful (Meccan) period and the violent (Medina) period. And the Medina period that the koran was written abrogated (replaced) the older, Meccan period.

To stay in ignorance would mean that we would take at face value many of those peaceful passages - well, they were replaced and until me, and people like me, delved into this a lot deeper - we found out that is where the deception is - those peaceful passages were replaced.

 

[catharina]

Catharina, aren’t you somehow mixing bashing humans with bashing teachings? when the apostles talk about false prophets and gospels, are they bashing?

Whe certain misguided and ill-fated “theologians” sought to promote “Liberation Theology” by combing the Gospel with the teachings of Karl Marx, they could be said to have been “false prophets” who promoted false gospels.

 

[inJESUS]

I’m truly not doing that.

Whe we speak of false teachings, we speak of atheism, communism, devil worship, etc…

 

[exoflare]

exoflare:

You’re projecting your own novel additions onto these. You (like so many other people) took a few “silver-lining” type polite references to Islam… but then made the logical stretch that, “if they say ONE positive thing about Islam, that must mean EVERYTHING we say about Islam must be positive!”

This is still the only thing it comes down to, I’m afraid. You STILL haven’t pointed out anything where the Pope or the Church states that we are forbidden to say anything bad about Islam. You have always needed to project your own additions on to the quotes you’ve cited in order to jump to that conclusion.

 

[catharina]

that is the whole problem - it is not the ‘Living God’ that they worship. It is allah, and I am not just having a problem with the name that they chose to call it. I have already given you what mohammed took as their god - the moon god that many Arabs worshipped, along with a patheon of gods and goddesses, at the time of mohammed. mohammed was a pagan who did not know the Bible. He threw in the bible stories that he heard and - if you read the koran - you would see it right off. the stories are kludgy and not even the same in many instances.

But, you won’t read.

And this is why the heart of the problem of all the terrorism (if you only want to use one tactic against us) abounds in islam - because mohammed said that WE were the ones that changed the Bible and therefore will go to hades. And he said that if muslims changed his words then the muslims will go to hades.

And his words were set into what we know as the koran after he died. And there were two phases of the koran - the peaceful (Meccan) period and the violent (Medina) period. And the Medina period that the koran was written abrogated (replaced) the older, Meccan period.

To stay in ignorance would mean that we would take at face value many of those peaceful passages - well, they were replaced and until me, and people like me, delved into this a lot deeper - we found out that is where the deception is - those peaceful passages were replaced.

So again (and no surprise) you are rejecting Church Teaching.

My THIRD reference to document from Pope Paul VI, Rome, 1965:

"3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."

from the Vatican website:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

It seems you are the one who won’t read.

 

[ChristopherL]

So again (and no surprise) you are rejecting Church Teaching.

My THIRD reference to document from Pope Paul VI, Rome, 1965:

"3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."

from the Vatican website:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

It seems you are the one who won’t read.

NO, it is you who is rejecting taking the Popes lead and at least TRYING to stand up for your fellow Christians. People like you are the reason the problem has gone on for 1400 years. You are more concerned with being politically correct then standing up for your fellow Christians. How sad.

What is your solution?

Btw, the Vatican also a conference 2 years ago. To explain why the Crusades were ordered. TRY and read between the lines. YOU just do NOT get it and are foolish to protect an ideology that calls for your death of dominance. It is a sure way to lose.

 

[inJESUS]

Catharina, of course the church will reconcile people for humanity’s sake, but it does not mean that the church believes the Quran is from God. Here lies your problem. There is a difference between holding good relations, and promoting the teachings of others when they insult you and your Bible! when falsehood is being taught as God’s words, you HAVE to show the truth, by not denying Jesus’ teachings on tolerance of people, yet by not opposing His teachings against false prophets/teachings. We are to tolerate people, not heresies.

 

[exoflare]

I think we need a sticky on this subforum for this particular Catechism passage or something, because for some reason it never fails that people always quote it here and try to make it say something that it doesn’t!

Well, let’s go over this again, shall we…

"3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems.

The “Moslems”… make note of this, the PEOPLE and not the RELIGION itself! This holds for all people, by the way, because of respect for human life. This isn’t even promoting Islam, as much as a few people wish it did.

They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men;

Yes, they do. But they also have a flawed understanding of that same God. The Church says this too, but we’re supposed to ignore it.

they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.

They can take all the pains they want, but their teachings are still false, for the most part. And of course, we still don’t read anything from the CCC refuting that!

Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

More of the same. Notice there is still no mention of whether or not their beliefs are actually CORRECT.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."

How you jump from this, to “never say anything bad about Islam” remains to be explained…

 

[catharina]

if your priest stood in church and claimed that Jesus was not crucified, do you agree since he believes in God? any gospel different than Jesus’ is false teachings even if the speaker proclaimed belief in God.