Speaking in Tongues

[BRB1]

nsc-chariscenter.org/

I also very much like Morton Kelsey’s book on “Tongue Speaking”. An excellent scholarly work, though he is not Catholic, he presents the Catholic position well.

I looked @ your link above re: National Catholic Committee on Charismatics

In the Mission Statement by the Church … it mentions the following:
Promoting dynamic praise & worship, excellent teaching & fellowship in H.S., establishing vibrant prayer groups, deeping Christian service, and building unity.

No one would argue against these essential goals … but, I didn’t see the word Tongue used once in the Mission Statement.

In other areas, it does speak of Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Yes, Christ said this is essential … but, Christ didn’t equate our spiritual baptisms to Speaking in Tongues. Baptism in H.S. is our essential grace unto salvation … speaking in tongues was a minor gift in the 1st Century, seems to have died out, but, possibly may return again in the Final Days of the Church.

 

[allhers]

With the approval of the Pope and the Bishops, most parishes have a charismatic prayer group. Speaking in tongues is usually confined to their meetings. The people I have met are very involved in their parishes in different ministries.

 

[BRB1]

In a 1991 Church Statement entitled FANNING THE FLAME, on the Charismatic Movement … this key point was made on Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

… the gift of “Baptism in H.S.” refers to BOTH Christian initiation and to its reawakening in Christian exerience. We believe that this gift of the baptism in the H.S. belongs to the Christian inheritance and ALL those sacramentallly initiated into the Church".

---

Thus, it is clear the Church is not linking the essential Catholic gift of ‘rebirth by H.S.’ to speaking in tongues. We receive it via our initiation [Confirmation, laying on of hands, trinitarian baptism, etc] upon our first illumination. Later in life, if one experiences a spiritual reawakening or rededication of life to Christ [after a Prodigal episode for example] … then one might expect to once again experience an intense spiritual power of H.S. within. A major ‘Fanning of our Flame’ … so it is being termed by the Church.

But, to ‘speak in tongues’ [as proof such a revival event has occurred ]… is not what I’m sensing the Church is saying in their documents.

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore …

Paul didn’t toss those Corinthians out of Church. But, in Chp. 14 of 1st Corinthians … he strongly admonished them for misusing tongues.

Yes. This is an appropriate pastoral response. what is not appropriate is to say “this gift is no longer valid”.

Some people have grown up in denominations (esp. Pentecostal) where it’s second nature to them. The fact it is so widespread in these groups, suggests it is learned behavior. Learned behavior from childhood is often permanent behavior, indeed very hard to modify/extinguish.

I am sure there are many bad habits, including religious ones that need to be changed. God is bigger than all of our bad habits.

Clearly the recent Popes have had an eye toward promoting Ecumenism. They don’t wish to drive away or offend those who believe in tongues.

Codswallop!

The Church teaches and practices the Truth. She does not compromise the Truth to keep from driving people away. Especially this present “German Shepherd”. He does not mince words.

the Charismatic gifts are Catholic. The Spirit was given to the Catholic Church, and the gifts are for the building up of the Church. The abuse of those outside the proper pastoring of the successor of Peter is a problem. It does not mean the gifts are invalid.

But, answer me this … has any Pope since Peter spoken in tongues ?

Sure! I think this Pope knows 7 languages, and JPII even more!

If Christ thought it was crucial for us … would not we of had a Pope [since Peter] who claimed it for themself & advised it for the faithful ?

There you go again throwing in the word “crucial”. Scripture indicates that this is not the case.

The purpose of any Spiritual gift is not to “claim it for themself”. This is a carnal attitude. We have been blessed in the last century with very humble Popes who don’t do this.

The advise to the faithful on these matters can be read in the homilies given to Charismatic groups, the pastoral letters, and in the catechism. If you are unwilling to receive these as valid, then what more “advise for the faithful” would do any good?

Yes, it does appear the Popes wish to keep close tabs on the Charismatic Catholics … and perhaps ‘shepherd’ them into better understandings of the gift.

It is the duty of the bishops and priests to do so.

As far as the scriptures teaching one to pray / meditate [Lectio Divina, for example] under influence of spirit ---- this is a strong affirmative. The CC does teach/advise this for us.

One does not rule out the other. In fact, the two go very well together.

I think Paul’s primary point to the Corinthians was to encourage them to emphasize the gifts of [spritual prayer, prophesy, teaching, and demonstrating Law of Love to all] … and to let tongues have a rest.

Paul was writing to them about abuses that were occurring during the gatherings. His primary focus is orderly and productive prayer meetings. Tongues, like all the gifts are to be used “decently and in order”. I will grant you that we see a lot of this that is not.

 

[guanophore]

I looked @ your link above re: National Catholic Committee on Charismatics

In the Mission Statement by the Church … it mentions the following:
Promoting dynamic praise & worship, excellent teaching & fellowship in H.S., establishing vibrant prayer groups, deeping Christian service, and building unity.

No one would argue against these essential goals … but, I didn’t see the word Tongue used once in the Mission Statement.

Good for you! You noticed that using tongues is not the goal, but serving God through the building up of the Body.

In other areas, it does speak of Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Yes, Christ said this is essential … but, Christ didn’t equate our spiritual baptisms to Speaking in Tongues.

And neither do the Apostles, nor to the Scriptures. This is why the Catholic Church does not teach this.

Baptism in H.S. is our essential grace unto salvation … speaking in tongues was a minor gift in the 1st Century, seems to have died out, but, possibly may return again in the Final Days of the Church.

If you don’t want it, that is your perogative. God can give you a gift. If you prefer not to unwrap it and use it, so be it. However the stance you take here that “they have died out” is contrary to the teaching of the Church.

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore …

Paul didn’t toss those Corinthians out of Church. But, in Chp. 14 of 1st Corinthians … he strongly admonished them for misusing tongues. Some people have grown up in denominations (esp. Pentecostal) where it’s second nature to them. The fact it is so widespread in these groups, suggests it is learned behavior. Learned behavior from childhood is often permanent behavior, indeed very hard to modify/extinguish.

Clearly the recent Popes have had an eye toward promoting Ecumenism. They don’t wish to drive away or offend those who believe in tongues. But, answer me this … has any Pope since Peter spoken in tongues ? If Christ thought it was crucial for us … would not we of had a Pope [since Peter] who claimed it for themself & advised it for the faithful ?

Yes, it does appear the Popes wish to keep close tabs on the Charismatic Catholics … and perhaps ‘shepherd’ them into better understandings of the gift.

As far as the scriptures teaching one to pray / meditate [Lectio Divina, for example] under influence of spirit ---- this is a strong affirmative. The CC does teach/advise this for us.

I think Paul’s primary point to the Corinthians was to encourage them to emphasize the gifts of [spritual prayer, prophesy, teaching, and demonstrating Law of Love to all] … and to let tongues have a rest.

But, to ‘speak in tongues’ [as proof such a revival event has occurred ]… is not what I’m sensing the Church is saying in their documents.

True. This is a falsehood promoted by our separated brethren. Once they left the shepherd of the flock (the successor of Peter) all kinds of abuses and misunderstandings became flagrant.

I urge you to look at Steubenville University, a veritable hotbed of Catholic Charsimatics.

 

[BRB1]

I urge you to look at Steubenville University, a veritable hotbed of Catholic Charsimatics.

Well, I’m a big fan of Scott Hahn’s… but, I don’t think its his cup of tea.

But, G-4 … its not a matter of WANTING to have the gift of tongues. We get certain gifts … that agree with our personalities / psychological makeups.

Indeed, Paul teaches us to seek the more valued gifts, putting tongues at the bottom of our desired list.

Now tell me you have spoken in a foreign language, having never studied it ! That would get my attention … and rightly so.

I have on rare occasion muttered some nonsensical things … during private confessions / whispered mediations. I guess my soul gets dissociated from the mind … ‘free associations’ being spoken. But, thats probably a rather common event. Its not some foreign language … just my tongue briefly dissociated from the verbal cortex.

I think what you are promoting is probably something on this order … spontaneous exhaltation or praise. Things that just flow from your spirit … not being prompted or planned. Occasions of overwhelming thanksgiving … when your speech is uninhibited and flowing w/o cortical filtering of speech.

That is an entirely different matter from uttering a clearly spoken foreign tongue. Would you not agree ?

 

[guanophore]

Well, I’m a big fan of Scott Hahn’s… but, I don’t think its his cup of tea.

No, but you will see that this is a legitmate Catholic College. I nearly attended there myself!

But, G-4 … its not a matter of WANTING to have the gift of tongues. We get certain gifts … that agree with our personalities / psychological makeups.

Actually, it is usually the opposite. Where we have natural talents, we often don’t need any supernatural help. I have heard most Catholics on CAF with a vibrant prayer life dismiss praying in tongues. When they describe their prayer life, it really seems that they have no need of it. Scripture says that the “Spirit helps us in our weakness”. I think this gift is often given to believers who are weaker in prayer.

I have on rare occasion muttered some nonsensical things … during private confessions / whispered mediations. I guess my soul gets dissociated from the mind … ‘free associations’ being spoken. But, thats probably a rather common event. Its not some foreign language … just my tongue briefly dissociated from the verbal cortex.

This accurately describes what happens in prayer with tongues. One’s mind is focused on Christ, and one’s intellect disconnects from the spirit, or the spirit prays while the mind is “unfruitful”. It can also happen that the spirit prays through the person while the mind is fruitful. The two are not opposed, but don’t always work in tandem either.

I do not think what you have described here is nearly common enough, only because not enough people commit themselves to this type of prayer.

I think what you are promoting is probably something on this order … spontaneous exhaltation or praise. Things that just flow from your spirit … not being prompted or planned. Occasions of overwhelming thanksgiving … when your speech is uninhibited and flowing w/o cortical filtering of speech.

That is an entirely different matter from uttering a clearly spoken foreign tongue. Would you not agree ?

I do.

 

[coco2]

I don’t think anyone can, or should for that matter, say that a gift of the Spirit no longer exists. I think that saying this with certainty would be EXTREMELY offensive to God ( if incorrect). St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas have contributed much, but I think even they cannot determine this with certainty.

I have been in a Pentacostal church and witnessed people that were “taken with the Spirit” Let’s face it, to Catholics, every way Pentacostals worship is foreign to us. I was flabbergasted at what I saw which included screaming, running, jumping on pews… To my way of thinking, this doesn’t seem to be holy, but I am not to judge this. I also know that a Catholic’s experiences with speaking in tongues, is nothing like this.

I still go back to the experience of the woman in Rwanda who started to speak in tongues when hiding from Hutus. ( in my previous post, I won’t rewrite) This was clearly a gift from God to help her. By the way, the name of the book is “Left To Tell” a quick read and excellent. This woman is a true model of Christian love and how God makes it possible for us to forgive the most heinous sinner. Speaking in tongues was very briefly mentioned, stating only that it started to happen.

Speaking in tongues IS a gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[catholic_daddy]

You are right. The life and death matter here is that you are relying on your own private interpretation of the scripture and the conclusions of your research instead of the Teaching Authority put in place by Christ 2000 years ago. This practice has far reaching ramificatons. To reject the revelation that God has given to the Church is extremely dangerous, especially when substituting one’s own subjective judgement. Very dangerous.

It seems to me that a person who has put as much effort into this as you apparently have must be highly motivated.

At least you are convinced that you do. You have made yourself the Standard.

A person who is really interested in this will remain in unity with the Church that was founded by Christ. You have apparently departed from that Church, whether knowingly or unwittingly, you have engaged in division to the body.

Hmmm. Caught up? Not like Paul was when he received his revelations from God! Nor like John on the island of Patmos. However, I do not find any evidence that God has ceased to use “caught up” whenever He deems it necessary.

I am certainly open to seeing the text in the light of your personal revelation. I have seen them. I used to also be bound by the error of Sola Scriptura.

They have run after error, and you still call them your friends?



Jesus promised to lead the Church into all Truth. That saves me a lot of confusion.

Yes, of course. Once Jesus comes for His Bride, non of the Charsimatic gifts will be necessary.

How can a person be shown something they do not believe exists? That is like me pointing to the North Star, and trying to convince you that it is what it is. You have made up your mind it is something else!

Yes, and that Helper was given to the Church, and does not depart from the Church. When people such as yourself try to find the leading of the Helper apart from the Church He was sent to guide, error is inevitable.

Perhaps you were unaware that Paul here is talking about the OT? Could you live a good Christian life with only the OT?

There are several things we notice about you, Mr. Guanophore.
First, you come across quite arrogantly! That is virtually always an ironic sign of insecurity. We understand why you might be insecure.
Second, in looking over your many posts, it appears you like to talk about what is wrong with something, but to explain the texts fully…you stop short.
Thirdly, we enjoy a rich heritage of submission to the Church authorities Christ has placed over us and through whom He teaches us. It is why we in turn are so able to teach. We do it in gratitude to our Savior, and we know you can appreciate that.
Fourth, (and I know this will sound harsh, but it is meant to help you) you remind me of one of my children, who is driven to always get in the last word! We usually just let him. I have discussed this doctrine enough with you, so you can respond if you want, but I’m moving on and won’t be checking with you on this one.

God Bless You

 

[catholic_daddy]

I don’t think anyone can, or should for that matter, say that a gift of the Spirit no longer exists. I think that saying this with certainty would be EXTREMELY offensive to God ( if incorrect). St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas have contributed much, but I think even they cannot determine this with certainty.

I have been in a Pentacostal church and witnessed people that were “taken with the Spirit” Let’s face it, to Catholics, every way Pentacostals worship is foreign to us. I was flabbergasted at what I saw which included screaming, running, jumping on pews… To my way of thinking, this doesn’t seem to be holy, but I am not to judge this. I also know that a Catholic’s experiences with speaking in tongues, is nothing like this.

I still go back to the experience of the woman in Rwanda who started to speak in tongues when hiding from Hutus. ( in my previous post, I won’t rewrite) This was clearly a gift from God to help her. By the way, the name of the book is “Left To Tell” a quick read and excellent. This woman is a true model of Christian love and how God makes it possible for us to forgive the most heinous sinner. Speaking in tongues was very briefly mentioned, stating only that it started to happen.

Speaking in tongues IS a gift of the Holy Spirit.

I have to say that I also have heard of instances where missionaries on the field have been given the ability to speak in a foreign language they didn’t learn, for the furtherance of the gospel. That closely resembles what happened in Acts 2. The gospel was just beginning to spread there in Jerusalem, and such is true in certain parts of the world. That’s neat!

 

[guanophore]

There are several things we notice about you, Mr. Guanophore.First, you come across quite arrogantly! That is virtually always an ironic sign of insecurity. We understand why you might be insecure.

What was arrogant?

Where is my insecurity?

Second, in looking over your many posts, it appears you like to talk about what is wrong with something, but to explain the texts fully…you stop short.

Perhaps you can point out the “short” so that I can address it. In this case it was deliberate, but I am very pleased that you noticed.

Thirdly, we enjoy a rich heritage of submission to the Church authorities Christ has placed over us and through whom He teaches us. It is why we in turn are so able to teach. We do it in gratitude to our Savior, and we know you can appreciate that.

Actually, I have not appreciated that in your case. I am not sure who the royal “we” is that you are speaking for here. You have not claimed to be Catholic, only that your father was.

All authority comes from God. God ordained the Apostles with His authorities. Those who have separated from the Apostolic succession have no valid authority.

If you have come here to teach, you have probably come to the worng place. However grateful you may be to our Savior for your ability to teach, CAF is not a venue for anti-Catholic teaching.

Fourth, (and I know this will sound harsh, but it is meant to help you) you remind me of one of my children, who is driven to always get in the last word! We usually just let him. I have discussed this doctrine enough with you, so you can respond if you want, but I’m moving on and won’t be checking with you on this one.

Actually, most of what I wrote was for the lurkers. If you look at the stats, you can see that there are often 10 times as many people reading the threads as there are posting on them. Most of them probably have been exposed to the same erroneous thinking that you have demonstrated here. I do not want falsehoods hanging out there to lead them astray. So, thank you for your participation!

God Bless You

Do you think that is possible, or will my arrogance prevent that?

I have to say that I also have heard of instances where missionaries on the field have been given the ability to speak in a foreign language they didn’t learn, for the furtherance of the gospel. That closely resembles what happened in Acts 2. The gospel was just beginning to spread there in Jerusalem, and such is true in certain parts of the world. That’s neat!

I am gratified to see that you can still recogize and appreciate the Gift of the Spirit at work in cases such as this.

 

[MariaG]

That is incorrect. And Paul makes it clear in I Cor 14 when he tells the Corinthians not to be children in their understanding, that the phenomenon of tongues is for a sign to the Jews in fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy (a prophecy of judgement). In I Cor 13 he says tongues would cease. History shows they did, until about 100 years ago when gibberish began to surface in Pentecostal circles.

I see a few posts ago, catholic daddy admits that tongues has not in fact ceased, yet here is seems to be claiming that scripture and history show it has ceased

 

[guanophore]

I see a few posts ago, catholic daddy admits that tongues has not in fact ceased, yet here is seems to be claiming that scripture and history show it has ceased

He has been very confused. Apparently his daddy is Catholic, but did not raise him in the faith as he promised at the baptismal vows. Now he has wandered into some anti-catholic group and is purporting teachings contrary to those of the Apostles.

 

[MariaG]

He has been very confused. Apparently his daddy is Catholic, but did not raise him in the faith as he promised at the baptismal vows. Now he has wandered into some anti-catholic group and is purporting teachings contrary to those of the Apostles.

Oh, I thought Catholic daddy meant he was a catholic and had kids.

But either way, he does seem to be contradicting himself.

And btw, thank you for sticking with this thread. I am one of the lurkers. Tongues is one of the things that is so hurtful for me. My former pentacostal brothers and sisters don’t think I am Christian anymore and Catholics tend to… well, it just is another slap in the face that I prefer not to deal with personally. Thanks again for sticking with it

God Bless,
Maria

 

[guanophore]

Tongues is one of the things that is so hurtful for me. My former pentacostal brothers and sisters don’t think I am Christian anymore and Catholics tend to… well, it just is another slap in the face that I prefer not to deal with personally. Thanks again for sticking with it

God Bless,
Maria

This is a very good example of the bad fruit that emanates from the error of misusing the gift. I hung with some Pentecostals too for a time, and if a person did not manifest this gift, then one was not considered to have the HS. There was a lot of pressure, and expectation. then, if one did not exercise faith and practice like they had, such persons were not really Christian. I am very sorry that you, and so many others, have been wounded by this.

 

[claire0202]

Forgive me but I do not understand what Maria G is trying to say. I do not know whether she means she used to speak in tongues when she was a pentecostal, has now become a catholic, still speaks in tongues but this is not accepted in the Catholic Group she is in, or whether she is saying she is victimised for not speaking in tongues. All I can say is that in my opinion it does not matter a jot whether one speaks in tongues or not if one is a catholic (or anything else) It is a personal gift . Others have other gifts.I use it in private prayer (& find it invaluable) and would not dream of even speaking about it if I was in a group who knew nothing about it or did not have the gift. However when one does happen to be within a group, some of whom have the gift & wish to use it (e/g/ in a charismatic prayer group) the feeling of being together in Praise of the Lord is palpable. I]t is also on these occasions invaluable for use in spontaneous prayer for healing when no-one knows what the other wishes to say or what the person to be prayed for 's needs really are.God Bless

 

[MariaG]

This is a very good example of the bad fruit that emanates from the error of misusing the gift. I hung with some Pentecostals too for a time, and if a person did not manifest this gift, then one was not considered to have the HS. There was a lot of pressure, and expectation. then, if one did not exercise faith and practice like they had, such persons were not really Christian. I am very sorry that you, and so many others, have been wounded by this.

Thank you for your compassion.

 

[thechristian]

There seems to be one gift of tongues but differnt applications…one applications would be to edify (build up) the church as a hole…and one to edify (build up) the believer in
his own personal prayer life. Tongues to build up the church,
you need to a valid interpenter…tongues to edify oneshelf
you have not the understanding the spirit interseeds for you
in prayer.

Peace and blessings

 

[jean8]

Well, both things cannot be true, jean. Either it is a gift that was given to the early church, or Agnus was the first.

The gift of tongues has been active in the Church since Pentecost. Agnus may be the “first” of something, but she was by no means the first woman to speak in tongues. Such an assertion is absurd.

quan,
Thanks for your reply.
I should correct that. Agnus was the first in the Pentecostal church at that time, to speak in tongues.
Alex Jones spoke of this event on, the Journey Home on EWTN.
Three former Pentecostals appeared on this tv show. All three are now Catholics. You can check this out at www.ewtn.org.

God bless,
jean8