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Flame_of_Christ
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if you want some help praying in tongues, please check out this website:
presentationministries.com/brochures/Tongues.asp
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presentationministries.com/brochures/Tongues.asp
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guanophore
Guest
I think, though, that anytime we do accept a gift and exercise it fully, it really does have bearing on our fidelity and holiness. It is not by virtue of these that we obtain a gift, but the purpose of the gift is to build these virtues in the individual, and in the Body.
Reading and praying Scripture also has this benefit, though not all are as literate as others. In my part of the country, there are not a few illiterate migrant workers from Mexico that dont’ read scripture (or anything else), and some Native tribes that have limited scripture in their language. Fortunately, the HS is not dependent upon the Bible as a means to build holiness and virtue into the faithful.
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grannymh
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www.presentationministries.com is a very good website. I will always remember Father Al Lauer when he came to our parish.
Post 75 in this thread is my personal approach to teaching Prayer Tongues.
Blessings,
granny
All human life is sacred.
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heiscominginthe
Guest
1 Cor. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Jude1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
AND as you said, by the fruit is a man known to be of God. Yet, what is an acceptable fruit in the eyes of the Lord? It must be given or done through the Son of God.
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guanophore
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So, if a person prays in tongues, and demonstrates fruit that you deem acceptable to God, then one is “filled with the Spirit”?
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CWBetts
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You have just been reported for insulting the Catholic Church
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Reuben_J
Guest
Obviously it does, for one cannot expect any less from the Holy Spirit.
I have not gone through this thread thoroughly and seeing its enormous size I think much has been covered. Thus I could only state the basic regarding the gift which could be disputed too if one differs.
Point one, the gift is given as the Spirit desires (gives), regardless of one’s standing, that’s whether a person is ‘holy’ or not. How it progresses from here will depend very much on the person given the gift. I suppose one can develop the gift or one can ignore it and it will disappear, not in use in the person’s life.
It’s in the former where it builds (edifies) not just the body but the person having the gift, for it follows when we give freely we will receive freely. Having the gift means giving most of our time in service and that’s where the personal spiritual blessing comes. You give and therefore you will receive. So, to agree with you, yes, by having the gift the natural progression would be an increase in our own personal faith and holiness.
Now what about for those who refuse or are ignorant of the gift? My personal take would be that God works in different ways in men (and women). A person may not have the charismatic gift but nevertheless may not be affected in his/her fidelity and holiness.
Interesting. There is always that special circumstances in every situation and place and yet the Spirit works in His own way according to the specific needs. The Spirits, when He speaks must confirm the Scripture; definitely not contradicting it.
Personally I have noted, especially among Catholic Charismatics, that personal prophecies and promptings become the word of God whereby the Bible begins to be set aside. Of course this is an extreme end, but this tendency can happen when we get carried away. So the gifts and actions of the Spirit must be taken with caution and sufficient discernment. This is where the importance of the body comes in. Gifts thrive when you have leaders who are mature and Spirit-filled themselves.
God bless.
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Reuben_J
Guest
He he.
I would say it is a yes. But then again we cannot limit what it amount to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I mean that’s not the definition of being filled with the Holy Spirit. I can say that I am filled with the Holy Spirit during my Baptism. So what?
But I think I know what the poster was trying to say. Too often we shoot down an incomplete sentence or an idea but that’s not entirely our fault. This is one of the reasons why the early CCR met so much opposition from people outside it. They or perhaps I included behaved as if we had the sole propriety to the Holy Spirit without being sensitive to the feeling of other very devout and very holy Catholics.
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Flame_of_Christ
Guest
I would offer that praying in tongues has granted me graces that I hadn’t had before, although I was devout (to a degree lol) before I received the gift. I think that the Lord gave it to me because He wanted me to use it and yeah, it has been a great blessing in my personal walk and in the ministry that I have been called to accomplish. Praise God, who has a plan beforehand!
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DaveScott
Guest
I am a Lutheric, converted about 32 years ago. I have heard much discussion and 1st hand reporting on this and share some of the concerns above that those doing it and those witnessing are not hearing what the Bible describes as tongues - reference to ‘each heard them preaching in his own language.’Has anyone here spoken in Tongues?I am particularly interested in hearing from those who have done so prior to converting to Catholicism.All others are welcome too.
I am a paramedic and once had a patient with chest pain start to speak in an unusual way. I asked him what he was doing and he said ‘talking to his God.’ I asked him what language and he said ‘I’m speaking in tongues’ and then he cardiac arrested! I did get him back but was nervous that he was pulling my leg (he had a history of bizzare behavior and violence) and I migh defibrillate a living person. It was a tense moment - but he was actually arrested and responded to just one defibrillation attempt.
So, was he speaking in ‘tounges’, understanding he stopped and spoke in English to me when I but said what are you doing? I have my doubts for several reasons. I believe in prayer and miracles, no questions there so I will keep an open mind, but to sum up, no, have neverr heard anyone speaking in tounges. Peace all.
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heiscominginthe
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Praying in tongues is a small part of the Holy Spirit. Yet, before a man can have the Holy Spirit of God in him, he must first be made clean, holy through salvation. For the Holy Spirit of God can not enter the man until he is first made holy by the blood of the lamb.
So salvation is the important part of having the HG in a man. Then comes the baptism of the HG when a man is filled, over filled with the HG. Just as the man entered into salvation by way of faith, he receives the baptism of the HG by faith.
And the fruits of the spirit are listed in scripture.
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CWBetts
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You are still denying the salvific aspects of baptism? I thought you believed the Bible?
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heiscominginthe
Guest
Do what you must do, but remember that if what I preach is of God, you fight not against me, but against God.
I did not mean to upset you and probably should have chosen my words more wisely. If I offended you just know that I love you and do not desire to push you from God but to God.
As for kicking me out, I have been removed from other forums and shake the dust from my shoes. I do commend this forum although for it’s longsuffering and trying to reason when others just turned away.
For is it not the duty of all believers to seek truth through Christ? Does the CC already have all the answers? Is their interpretation etched in stone, complete? Or is there room for spiritual growth by God revealing himself to us?
Almost everything I have posted has been in dispute. Now, if I were catholic, what would happen then? Would I be excommunicated or would we work out our differences?
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CWBetts
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You do not preach God, but the misguided teachings of the reformers. Read the Early Church Fathers, see what early Christian worship was like, look at waht they believed, and you will see that the Erly Church, the New Testament Church still exists today. It is the Catholic Church.
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heiscominginthe
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How can you say such a thing. I have done no such thing. It is your ignoring of scipture that distorts your interpretation. You can’t just take this and that and make a stand. You must accept all, not part. NO place in the bible does it say water saves a man.
I say it is the blood of the lamb that washes our sins away and have many scriptures to prove it. You say it is water that washes away sin and have no credible interpretation by scripture to inforce your stand.
SHOW ME where it says anything about water in these scriptures.
Why do believers want to rob salvation of the blood that saves them? Do you not understand the importance of the blood. Without the blood, there would be not remission of sins. What is more important, water or blood? The church for too long has turned it’s back on the blood of the lamb. I rebuke all who do this. It is time to change this. For the power is in the blood of the lamb.
Heb. 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Acts 20:28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.
Romans 3:25 whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God’s forbearance;
Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ.
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by him, whether things on the earth, or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of his cross.
Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption.
Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh: (WEB KJV WEY ASV BBE DBY WBS YLT NAS RSV NIV)
Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel.
Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered outside of the gate.
1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
1 Peter 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a faultless and pure lamb, the blood of Christ;
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
Revelation 7:14 I told him, “My lord, you know.” He said to me, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood.
Revelation 12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb’s blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn’t love their life, even to death.
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CWBetts
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Give me time. I do not have eiter my Bible or my apolegitcs materials close at hand.
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guanophore
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I am glad that we are in agreement on these points. I think the only place your faith diverges from the Apostolic Teaching is that they did not separate these from one another. They taught that we are baptized (after a profession of faith) and are filled with the HS at that time.
Yes. We must hold fast to the traditions that were passed to us from the Apostles. This is part of the obedience of faith. We cannot abandon these teachings for new ideas that emerged 1500 -2000 years after the complete deposit of faith was entrusted to the Church.
No worries there!
Paul was quite clear about the consequences for the one who embraced a different gospel.
I do believe your faithful passion is sincere. You may wish to consider that it may not be appropriate to try to “push” anyone to God. No one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him. This is the work of the HS, and not ours. We are to be light and salt to the world.
Have you ever considered that your technique could use some refining? Do you realize that you are on a Catholic Forum dedicated to providing Catholic Answers? Had you considered approaching with questions about what we believe, rather than trying to instruct us in things we are not permitted to believe?
It is, and I believe that you are doing so to the best of your knowledge. It seems that you are sincerely committed to your many doctrinal and historical errors. You remind me of Apollos.
Yes, the public revelation of God was complete with the death of the last Apostle. He committed everything to the Church. Yes, there is also room for spiritual growth, but it is not doctrine that “grows”, only our understanding of it. Doctrine, having been depsited by God, cannot be changed. the Church does develop in her understanding and application of it, however. For example, the early Church did not immediately “get” many things, but the HS guided them to understand.
One cannot be Catholic and hold the beliefs that you do. You most likely would be considered poorly catechized. People are not responsible for beliefs they hold in ignorance. Once a person is educated, and they still reject the Truth, then they are responsible.
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guanophore
Guest
It is VERY CATHOLIC of you to say this!
This is, for the most part, true. However, baptism is not just dunking in water as one takes a bath to wash off the dirt.
1 Peter 3:20-22
“…during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,…”
8 persons were saved “through water”. Would you say the water saved them? Certainly not! It was the sourceof the death of the whole known population.
Does the water “save” in baptism? No, the only way that man can appeal to God for a clear conscience is through the blood of Christ. Baptism is the manner in which the blood of Christ is applied to the individual.
This is part of the Catholic Sacred Tradition that you have retained.
No, we do not say that. We say that the blood of Jesus washes away our sins. We say that Jesus, when He said “you must be born from above by water and Spirit” was talking about Baptism, which is the manner in which the saving blood is applied to our souls.
Rom 6:2-4
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
As we go under the waters of baptism, the HS joins us to Christ in His death. When we rise from the baptismal waters, we are joined with Him in His resurrection. Water does not do this. The HS does this. However, just as He saved the family of Noah, He chooses to do this “through water”.
I must say it is refreshing that you are willing to look at things from another point of view, even if you think in advance you are going to disagree.
However, the fact that there are so many references to blood cleansing that do not mention water is not an impediment to us. You see, we have received the Apostolic Teaching that His blood is applied to us “through water”.
YOu are misunderstanding the Catholic Teaching. Although I do agree that there are a lot of Catholics that do not understand the importance of the blood, and what actually occurs during baptism. If they did, they would live lives of power.
However, the scriptures you have given here that you wish to discuss are off topic in this thread. I believe the you posted them also in the “3 baptisms” thread, which is a more appropriate venue.
I am really surprised that you would choose this passage to support your point that baptism has nothing to do with being covered by His Blood. The very next chapter makes such a clear connection between the efficacy of His blood, applied to us in baptism.
Col 2:8-14
8 See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have come to fulness of life in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11 **In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12 and you were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. **13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
The Apostles taught that baptism is a “circumcision made without hands” because it is the spirit that is at work in baptism to circumcise the heart.
It is this infusion of the Spirit in baptism that seals us for our inheritance,and instills within us all the spiritual gifts (including tongues) so that we may do the works that He has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Indeed, we are sanctified by the Spirit in Baptism.
1 Cor 6:10-11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
What is a puzzle for us, is how it is that the Modern American Fundamentalist movement, beginning in the 1930’s, has separated the Spiritual realities that the Aposltes taught happen from the water, in which they taught it occurs.
Baptism is the manner in which our robes are made white by the blood of the lamb. You have been taught that it is an “ordinance”, a form of godliness, denying the power therof. This is a modern innovation that is not consistent with the teachings of the Apostles.
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guanophore
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jlhargus
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JL: In Ezekiel we have an Old Testament prophecy, according to the foreknowledge of God, of something better than circumcision to come.
Ez 36:24 FOR I WILL TAKE YOU FROM AMONG THE HEATHEN, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 THEN WILL I SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, and YE SHALL BE CLEAN: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, I WILL CLEANSE YOU. 26 A NEW HEART also WILL I GIVE YOU, and A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU: and I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART out of your flesh, and I WILL GIVE YOU AN HEART OF FLESH. 27 And I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and YE SHALL KEEP MY JUDGMENTS, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and YE SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, and I WILL BE YOUR GOD.
1Pt 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
ACTS 19:1 And it came to pass that, while Apollos was at Corinth Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus and FINDING certain DISCIPLES 2 HE SAID unto them HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST SINCE YE BELIEVED? And they said unto him WE HAVE NOT SO MUCH AS HEARD whether THERE BE ANY HOLY GHOST 3 And HE SAID unto them UNTO WHAT then WERE YE BAPTIZED? And THEY SAID UNTO JOHN’S BAPTISM 4 Then said Paul, JOHN verily BAPTIZED WITH the BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE SAYING unto the people that they should BELIEVE ON HIM WHICH should COME AFTER HIM that is ON CHRIST JESUS 5 When they heard this THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS 6 And when PAUL had LAID his HANDS UPON THEM THE HOLY GHOST CAME ON THEM and they spake with tongues and prophesied [More is needed than belief and faith to be born again, because John’s baptism was of repentance and believing or having faith in the one to come, Christ. They needed the sacrament of Christian water baptism because the Holy Spirit and baptism go hand and hand else why would Paul ask about baptism when he found they had not heard of the Holy Spirit? We receive the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Christ’s baptism and a strengthening in the sacrament of confirmation, by laying on of hands, confirmation is Pentecost for the baptized.
How are we joined to the one body of Christ and drink of one Spirit? [1Cor 12:13 BY ONE SPIRIT we were ALL BAPTIZED INTO ONE BODY Jews or Greeks slaves or free all were MADE TO DRINK OF ONE SPIRIT]
How do we die with Christ? [Rms 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH?] How are we buried with Christ? How are we raised from the dead to new life with Christ? [Rms6:4 We were therefore BURIED WITH HIM THROUGH BAPTISM INTO DEATH in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, WE too may LIVE A NEW LIFE.] How are we united to Christ? [Rms6:5 If we have been UNITED WITH HIM like this in his death, we will certainly also be UNITED WITH HIM in his resurrection.] How is our old sinful self crucified with Christ, that we no longer be slaves to sin? [Rms6:6 For we know that OUR OLD SELF WAS CRUCIFIED with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should NO LONGER be SLAVES TO SIN.]
How are we complete in Christ? How are we circumcised without hands putting off the body of the sins of the flesh? [Col2:10 And YE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 IN WHOM also YE ARE CIRCUMCISED with the CIRCUMCISION MADE WITHOUT HANDS, in PUTTING OFF THE BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH by the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST] What is the circumcision of Christ? [Col2:12 BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.]
How are we saved by Christ’s mercy? How are we washed by Christ? How are we regenerated by Christ? How are we renewed of the Holy Ghost by Christ? [Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS of righteousness…we have done BUT BY HIS MERCY he saved us BY the WASHING of REGENERATION and RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST]
What must we do to be saved by Christ? How do we receive remission of sins by Christ? How do we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? [Acts 2:38 …Peter said …REPENT and BE BAPTIZED…in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the REMISSION OF SINS and…RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST.]
What must we do to be saved if we believe? [MK16:16 He that BELIEVETH and is BAPTIZED shall be SAVED but he that believeth not shall be damned.]
Does baptism save? 1Pt3:20 … eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto BAPTISM NOW SAVES US.
How do we enter the kingdom of God? [Jn3:5 Jesus answered…UNLESS one is BORN OF WATER AND THE SPIRIT he CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM of God.]
How do we put on Christ? [Gal 3::27… as many of you as have been BAPTIZED into Christ HAVE PUT ON CHRIST.]
How does Christ wash us, from our sins, in his blood? [Rv 1:5 …Jesus Christ…the faithful witness…first begotten of the dead…prince of kings…him that loved us and WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS own BLOOD] How does Christ make us kings and priests unto God? [Rv1:6 …made us kings and priests unto God…]
The answer to all the above is BAPTISM.
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