Speaking in Tongues

[Sunflower15]

I think ck and I are on the same page to say that we believe in the miracles by the holy spirit as well as the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit … BUT … we do not believe the gibberish spoken in large groups is actually one of those miraculous gifts of the holy spirit.

ck … correct me if i misrepresented you.

cheers!

michel

Oh, ok…so the issue is not with all the miraculous gifts, but rather with the speaking in tongues one?

As I said, I don’t have it. I’m not particularly interested in it. Nor do I refuse it. I do think it’s still around, since I have heard it…in different countries and by a lot of people.
It is not gibberish. It is beautiful! Like gregorian chanting…but not really words, more like vibrating sounds… very reverent and solemn, actually!

Maybe you haven’t heard it and think it’s somehow “un-spiritual” or chaotic…it is NOT!

I don’t see the “purpose” …but then again, it’s worship of God, rather than God helping us [as in healing], so, it’s natural for my selfish human nature to think it’s “less important”…God helping US is far more important that US worshiping HIM…

I’m not Charismatic because I’m of the “other” type…
I sit for 1-3 hrs daily in an Adoration Chapel just “there” with Him…and time passes by. I don’t even “register” when people come in or leave…I’m not even aware of time itself! It’s like a few minutes…and suddenly, it’s been 2-3 hrs! And, when I’m not there, I feel Him calling me…and that the only place I really, truly want to be at!
So, probably I’m more the “opposite” to a Charismatic, more of a contemplative?..

Peace be with all.

 

[cazayoux]

Oh, ok…so the issue is not with all the miraculous gifts, but rather with the speaking in tongues one?

As I said, I don’t have it. I’m not particularly interested in it. Nor do I refuse it. I do think it’s still around, since I have heard it…in different countries and by a lot of people.
It is not gibberish. It is beautiful! Like gregorian chanting…but not really words, more like vibrating sounds… very reverent and solemn, actually!

Maybe you haven’t heard it and think it’s somehow “un-spiritual” or chaotic…it is NOT!

But this is exactly how I see it. And as you state below, I see no purpose in it. I tend to think those people in large groups that are ‘speaking in tongues’ are doing so for their own benefit. Like they are proving to themselves that the Holy Spirit is with them. I see this as a lack of faith on their part since they need the proof.

I don’t see the “purpose” …but then again, it’s worship of God, rather than God helping us [as in healing], so, it’s natural for my selfish human nature to think it’s “less important”…God helping US is far more important that US worshiping HIM…

I’m not Charismatic because I’m of the “other” type…
I sit for 1-3 hrs daily in an Adoration Chapel just “there” with Him…and time passes by. I don’t even “register” when people come in or leave…I’m not even aware of time itself! It’s like a few minutes…and suddenly, it’s been 2-3 hrs! And, when I’m not there, I feel Him calling me…and that the only place I really, truly want to be at!
So, probably I’m more the “opposite” to a Charismatic, more of a contemplative?..

Peace be with all.

I completely relate to your adoration experience. THIS is worship! Admittedly, I need more of this. I need to make a renewed effort to make it to adoration at my parish. I don’t think all of the Charismatic movement is about (what it think is false) speaking in tongues … but i think those ‘communities’ that focus on it, make a bad name for the whole movement.

michel

 

[Sunflower15]

I am glad God is not limited in How He chooses to bless us.

Could NOT agree with you more!

 

[grannymh]

When the word tongues is used in the plural form it refers gibberish. when it is singulare it refers to known language. Paul says this 1 Cor 12:27-31

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

And I show you a still more excellent way.
NASU

1 Cor 14:1-5

Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, buteven more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.
NASU

12:31 should read this way,You are seeking the greating miraculous gifts Then in chapter 14 He says that phropecy is better than tongues because it edifies the whole church. Tongues are not a private prayer language for the individual. Tongues are lesser gift that prophecy. Tongues are not fro the believer but for unbeliever.
1 Cor 14:22-23
2 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
NASU

Dear DLClark,

I love reading your inspiring Scripture references. However, I prefer looking at Scripture verses in context and in relationships. For example, when I look at 1 Corinthians, I take into account the purpose of the entire Letter. When St. Paul quotes Isaiah in 1 Corinthians 14, I go back to Isaiah to discover the relationship. Even so, there can be differences in interpretation, especially when the same word has more than one meaning. Sometimes it is best to agree to disagree.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.

 

[Sunflower15]

But this is exactly how I see it. And as you state below, I see no purpose in it. I tend to think those people in large groups that are ‘speaking in tongues’ are doing so for their own benefit. Like they are proving to themselves that the Holy Spirit is with them. I see this as a lack of faith on their part since they need the proof.

But, the mind of God is greater than ours…be careful in your judgment…just in case it IS the HS after all!
Honestly, I do think so…whether I personally “have” or “understand” it…
Besides, a blessing is a blessing…thanks be to God!
For whatever my testimony is worth, I DO witness/testify to their gifts…

I completely relate to your adoration experience. THIS is worship! Admittedly, I need more of this. I need to make a renewed effort to make it to adoration at my parish. I don’t think all of the Charismatic movement is about (what it think is false) speaking in tongues … but i think those ‘communities’ that focus on it, make a bad name for the whole movement.

michel

Yes…I can’t get enough of it! My joy in the silence is similar to the Charismatics’ joy in the tongues…perhaps God likes diversity… I wonder if the angels share that diversity as well…some contemplative some vocal in unison…hm, m,m…

 

[cazayoux]

I am glad God is not limited in How He chooses to bless us.

I believe God is not limited in how He chooses to bless us.
This fact does not mean those that ‘speak in tongues’ are actually experiencing a gift from God rather than manufacturing this themselves.

michel

 

[grannymh]

Personally, I have noticed a lot of confusion about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit on this thread. The various personal interpretations have been very enlightening. Thank you.

If anyone is interested in knowing about the various gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit from the perspective of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, the following book is an excellent resource. It has the Nihil Obstat and Imprimature.

*A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church – *ISBN: 0-87029-033-9
by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.

 

[Sunflower15]

Personally, I have noticed a lot of confusion about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit on this thread. The various personal interpretations have been very enlightening. Thank you.

If anyone is interested in knowing about the various gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit from the perspective of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, the following book is an excellent resource. It has the Nihil Obstat and Imprimature.

*A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church – *ISBN: 0-87029-033-9
by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred.

I understand, but before we are able to “believe” a book…we have to be open to the possibility “from above”…otherwise, they’re just “making it up”…
This is a rare case where the “believers” can’t possibly “believe” what the “unbelievers” would easily “believe”…weird, ah?

 

[grannymh]

I understand, but before we are able to “believe” a book…we have to be open to the possibility “from above”…otherwise, they’re just “making it up”…
This is a rare case where the “believers” can’t possibly “believe” what the “unbelievers” would easily “believe”…weird, ah?

The reason is that St. Paul is compressing a passage in Isaiah to make a point. Isaiah threatened the people that if they failed to listen to their prophets, the Lord would speak to them in punishment through the lips of Assyrian conquerors. This would not be a sign of God’s pleasure.

When reading St. Paul, one has to remember that his “shorthand” references to the Old Testament would automatically be known by the readers of the “Church of God that is in Corinth.” Furthermore, the list of ministries quoted in a post above would be recognized especially by the Corinthians as different from the classical list of (charismatic) gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The whole tone of St. Paul’s instructions and clarifications would be understood by the Corinthian community as regarding the normal or being normative to the Church.

In order to “be open to the possibility “from above”…” as in your quote, I humbly suggest reading John, Chapters 14, 15, 16, and 17 in their entirety. The other Gospel writers would also be good to read. However, some call John’s Gospel, the book of comforting promises.

Of course, I understand that it is possible for people to use logic and their current religious education to figure out things. So, you are right, you do not need any book. Personally, I chose a reliabe source which I shared. I do find discussions arising from differences in opinions very informative. When necessary, I simply agree to disagree.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is meant for eternal life.

 

[grannymh]

I think we need to see the distinction between the ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’ and the ‘Miraculous Gifts’. Tongues and prophecy are miraculous gifts … and I don’t see the groups of Catholics at a Charismatic meeting mumbling in unison as the gift of ‘tongues’.

The ‘Gifts of the Holy Spirit’ however are given to all of us to USE … so that we might produce the ‘Fruits of the Holy Spirit’.
These ‘Gifts’ are: Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Piety, Fear of the Lord, Counsel, and Fortitude.
The ‘Fruits’ are: charity (or love), joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, long suffering, mildness, faith, modesty, continence, and chastity.

We USE the gifts we get from the Holy Spirit to PRODUCE the fruits.

These ‘Gifts’ are alive and well today and should not be confused with the prophecy, tongues, and other miraculous gifts.

michel

Yes. Some teach that the gifts and their fruits which you mentioned are connected with the Sacrament of Confirmation. These gifts are known as the Isaiah Gifts and are given for a specific purpose.

Did you realize that the classical St. Paul’s list of Gifts of the Holy Spirit is considered a passing manifestation of God’s power? In other words, they are not something we possess; rather one yields to God’s power so that God can work through the person. In contrast, the common gift of praying in prayer tongues is considered a permanent gift following the first time it is yielded to.

 

[grannymh]

Great point. That’s why it’s important to not put too much faith in miracles, and I’d venture to guess that’s part of the reason even the Catholic church doesn’t require belief in things like Fatima.

The reason the Catholic Church does not require belief is that the period of Public Divine Revelation is closed. Fatima is after the fact.
However, Fatima is worthy of belief.

 

[cazayoux]

In contrast, the common gift of praying in prayer tongues is considered a permanent gift following the first time it is yielded to.

This is new to me. Help me to understand where this teaching comes from.
I would actually consider it a gift (permanent or otherwise) whether or not the person yielded to it.
You might give a gift to someone that is never opened. It is a gift all the same.

michel

 

[grannymh]

This is new to me. Help me to understand where this teaching comes from.
I would actually consider it a gift (permanent or otherwise) whether or not the person yielded to it.
You might give a gift to someone that is never opened. It is a gift all the same.

michel

Try looking at this from a spiritual point of view rather than ours. God is constantly offering us graces. Do we have to accept them for them to work? Remember free will.

 

[cazayoux]

Some teach that the gifts and their fruits which you mentioned are connected with the Sacrament of Confirmation.

That ‘some’ being the Catholic Church.
This is a big part of my discussion with those getting ready to be confirmed at my parish.

There is a great analogy that the kids get to see on their confirmation retreat.

A glass of milk is brought up and one of the kids are asked to come and taste the milk.
It tastes like plain milk.
They are told that when they are baptized, they get some of the Holy Spirit.
A bottle of chocolate syrup, labeled ‘Holy Spirit’, is revealed and a little bit of chocolate is poured in the milk. The teen is asked to taste again.
It tastes like plain milk, because the unmixed chocolate is still at the bottom of the glass.
With confession and communion, they get more of the Holy Spirit.
More chocolate is poured in … still not mixed.
The teen tastes … it’s still just plain milk on top.
At confirmation, you get an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
A huge amount of chocolate is poured into the glass. The bottom third of the glass is chocolate and milk is overflowing the glass.
Still just tastes like milk on top.

So we ask the kids … “What do you need to do to FEEL the Holy Spirit that you’ve been given?”
They all respond … “STIR IT UP!”

I love this exercise.
They learn that they will be given those gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the way they will feel the Holy Spirit working in them is to stir it up. They ‘stir it up’ by using those gifts to produce the fruits.

We also let them know that even after the chocolate is stirred up … if we let that glass sit long enough, all of the chocolate will settle back to the bottom and the milk will taste plain again.

They always remember the chocolate milk exercise.
They know they need to ‘stir it up’!!

Cheers!

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Try looking at this from a spiritual point of view rather than ours. God is constantly offering us graces. Do we have to accept them for them to work? Remember free will.

I agree having to accept and use the gifts we are given.
I don’t understand what you stated regarding permanence.

In contrast, the common gift of praying in prayer tongues is considered a permanent gift following the first time it is yielded to.

Where is this taught?

michel

 

[grannymh]

That ‘some’ being the Catholic Church.
This is a big part of my discussion with those getting ready to be confirmed at my parish.

There is a great analogy that the kids get to see on their confirmation retreat.

A glass of milk is brought up and one of the kids are asked to come and taste the milk.
It tastes like plain milk.
They are told that when they are baptized, they get some of the Holy Spirit.
A bottle of chocolate syrup, labeled ‘Holy Spirit’, is revealed and a little bit of chocolate is poured in the milk. The teen is asked to taste again.
It tastes like plain milk, because the unmixed chocolate is still at the bottom of the glass.
With confession and communion, they get more of the Holy Spirit.
More chocolate is poured in … still not mixed.
The teen tastes … it’s still just plain milk on top.
At confirmation, you get an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
A huge amount of chocolate is poured into the glass. The bottom third of the glass is chocolate and milk is overflowing the glass.
Still just tastes like milk on top.

So we ask the kids … “What do you need to do to FEEL the Holy Spirit that you’ve been given?”
They all respond … “STIR IT UP!”

I love this exercise.
They learn that they will be given those gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the way they will feel the Holy Spirit working in them is to stir it up. They ‘stir it up’ by using those gifts to produce the fruits.

We also let them know that even after the chocolate is stirred up … if we let that glass sit long enough, all of the chocolate will settle back to the bottom and the milk will taste plain again.

They always remember the chocolate milk exercise.
They know they need to ‘stir it up’!!

Cheers!

michel

This is absolutely great!

 

[cazayoux]

I don’t understand what you stated regarding permanence.

I found this in the Catechism Glossary

**GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT: **Permanent dispositions that make us docile to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit. The traditional list of seven gifts of the Spirit is derived from Isaiah 11:1-3: wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, piety, fortitude, and fear of the Lord (1830).

I actually found that prophecy is not considered permanent.

From the NAB Intro to the Prophetic Books.
The office of prophet was due to a direct call from God. It was not the result of heredity, just as it was not a permanent gift but a transient one, subject entirely to the divine will.

I cannot find any reference to the gift of tongues being permanent once given or once yielded to.

michel

 

[Bill_Pick]

Unfortunately my reply to a previous post was totally lost when a crazy message box from CAF popped up on my screen when I tried to preview what I wrote. I apologize but I don’t have time to rethink it. I will get back to it when I return.

Paul teaches that tongue-speaking is a gift of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:4,10-11). Paul therefore does not prohibit tongue-speaking (1 Cor. 14:39) and even encourages it (1 Cor. 14:5) when received according to his parameters.

However, Paul warns us that tongue-speaking is not always a gift of the Spirit, but may originate out of spiritual pride and immaturity. This is why Paul called the Corinthians immature (1 Cor. 3:1-3; 14:20), and said they were seeking the wisdom of men and not God (1 Cor. 2:5,13; 3:18). Many people in the Corinthian church claimed to have the gift of tongues, but were actually mimicking the divine gift in order to gain ascendancy in the church. This caused arrogance, dissensions and jealousies among them (1 Cor. 1:10-13; 3:3; 4:6-7,18; 5:2; 11:17-22).

Tongue-speaking can also have demonic origins. When people are unfaithful and motivated by pride and not love for God, God can allow demons to enter the church to punish the unfaithful. These demons can appear holy and good, and inspire tongue-speaking and other speech, but they are really deceivers who wish to confuse the faithful and lead them away from the truth (cf. Ezek. 14:6-11; 1 Kings 22:22-23). Paul warns that some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Tim. 4:1). This is why John tells us to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1).

Therefore, tongue-speaking can be a gift of the Holy Spirit, or may be of human or demonic origin. Paul makes several important points regarding the gift of tongues:

 

[grannymh]

I found this in the Catechism Glossary

I actually found that prophecy is not considered permanent.

I cannot find any reference to the gift of tongues being permanent once given or once yielded to.

michel

One of my favorite sayings is that the Holy Spirit schedules stuff far better than I do. I started to reply to your first post and had to leave…While gone, you found prophesy.

The practice of praying to God in prayer tongues is taught through the example of St. Paul. In 1 Corinthians, 14: 14-19. He is talking about his habit of praying in the spirit which is referring to prayer tongues. He continues by saying that he will pray with the spirit and also with the mind which refers to the classical gift of speaking God’s word in the Gift of Tongues so as to instruct others. Paul’s example shows that praying prayer tongues is a normal habit which can be considered permanent since it stays right along with his using a classical gift.

 

[grannymh]

Paul teaches that tongue-speaking is a gift of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:4,10-11). Paul therefore does not prohibit tongue-speaking (1 Cor. 14:39) and even encourages it (1 Cor. 14:5) when received according to his parameters.

However, Paul warns us that tongue-speaking is not always a gift of the Spirit, but may originate out of spiritual pride and immaturity. This is why Paul called the Corinthians immature (1 Cor. 3:1-3; 14:20), and said they were seeking the wisdom of men and not God (1 Cor. 2:5,13; 3:18). Many people in the Corinthian church claimed to have the gift of tongues, but were actually mimicking the divine gift in order to gain ascendancy in the church. This caused arrogance, dissensions and jealousies among them (1 Cor. 1:10-13; 3:3; 4:6-7,18; 5:2; 11:17-22).

Tongue-speaking can also have demonic origins. When people are unfaithful and motivated by pride and not love for God, God can allow demons to enter the church to punish the unfaithful. These demons can appear holy and good, and inspire tongue-speaking and other speech, but they are really deceivers who wish to confuse the faithful and lead them away from the truth (cf. Ezek. 14:6-11; 1 Kings 22:22-23). Paul warns that some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Tim. 4:1). This is why John tells us to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1).

Therefore, tongue-speaking can be a gift of the Holy Spirit, or may be of human or demonic origin. Paul makes several important points regarding the gift of tongues:

Dear Paul,

Thank you for continuing from my previous disaster of losing my response.

While he was in Ephesus, St. Paul wrote the First Letter to the Corinthians because he had received news about disorder in the Corinthian community. He admonishes them, corrects their abuses by instructing them, and exhorts them to “be on your guard, stand firm in the faith, be courageous, be strong. Your every act should be done with love.”* 1 Corinthians 16: 13-14*. Closing with “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. My love to all of you in Christ Jesus.” 1 Corinthians 16: 23-24. Your choices of quotes are good illustrations of what St. Paul was doing. The First Letter to Timothy, which you quoted, is another example of St. Paul’s concern for the flock.

The quote 1 John 4:1-3 regarding discernment or testing the spirits echoes Matthew 24: 23-26. Both passages are prominent in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal especially “This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh belongs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God.” 1 John 4: 2-3.

Regarding the comment: Therefore, tongue-speaking can be a gift of the Holy Spirit, or may be of human or demonic origin." Basically tongue-speaking can be described six ways to Sunday. Thank you for your good descriptions.

It truly saddens me that there is so much misunderstanding of what the Holy Spirit did in the early Church and what He continues to do now. It breaks my heart to read about the abuses of the Holy Spirit’s precious gifts. Even more damaging is that the misinformation I have read on various threads is so powerful and so overwhelming that God’s intentions for His gifts are being lost.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is sacred from the moment of conception.