Speaking in Tongues

[Sunflower15]

I have to reiterate that if someone were to witness Charismatics in “action” during a Mass…how reverent and spiritual and holy the experience is, even if strange at first, there would be a lot of respect for those gifts.

Now, I have shared Benedictine and Gregorian chants with Protestant friends, thinking how holy and beautiful those are [to me at least] only to see them almost “wince” and then comment that it seems so “dead” and “funeral-like” to them! Totally depressing is what some have told me!
Really?!!!

The exact opposite effect on me! So, then again, maybe it wouldn’t be some people’s “cup of tea”, but being respectful of the HS WHO bears the gifts.

It is probably better to err in tolerance and it not be true, than to err in negating the possibility, in case it really IS the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life HIMSELF! No?

 

[cazayoux]

The practice of praying to God in prayer tongues is taught through the example of St. Paul. In 1 Corinthians, 14: 14-19. He is talking about his habit of praying in the spirit **which is referring to **prayer tongues. He continues by saying that he will pray with the spirit and also with the mind **which refers to **the classical gift of speaking God’s word in the Gift of Tongues so as to instruct others. Paul’s example shows that praying prayer tongues is a normal habit **which can be considered **permanent since it stays right along with his using a classical gift.

Sorry grannymh … I see a lot of explanations of what scripture is actually telling me and what it actually means. This is a warning bell for me that someone is giving me their own interpretation and I should look at the text myself.

Let’s look at the scripture you cite.

1 Cor 14:14-19
[14] For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
[15] What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
[16] Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?
[17] For you may give thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
[18] I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all;
[19] nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

In no way does this advocate a group of people speaking gibberish all at the same time. In fact … it is a detractor for exactly that kind of activity. It is even a warning against one person ‘speaking’ so many words if ‘any one’ of the hearers cannot understand.

I disagree that the text is equating ‘praying with the spirit’ with ‘speaking in tongues’. His instruction is if you are praying in a tongues to pray with the spirit and the mind. These are different.

There is no definition of ‘classic’, ‘normal’, or ‘permanence’.
You are reading something into the text that is not actually there.

I do not see in scripture or the catechism the idea that the miraculous gift of speaking in tongues is permanent, either before or upon first yielding to it.

My fear is that some in the charismatic community over-emphasize this lesser gift of speaking in tongues. I do not believe this action on their part is the genuine gift of the Holy Spirit. They would do better to spend that time using the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit that ARE permanent (counsel, fortitude, piety, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, fear of the lord) to produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Please do not take my objections are investigation into your claims as disrespectful. This is not at all my intent, and very much do not want you to take it in a negative way. Know that I pray unceasingly for guidance and sincerely hope that it is not a mis-step to put these claims up to the same rigorous scrunity that I would any claim made by a non-Catholic Christian about my faith.

with love

michel

 

[cazayoux]

I have to reiterate that if someone were to witness Charismatics in “action” during a Mass…how reverent and spiritual and holy the experience is, even if strange at first, there would be a lot of respect for those gifts.

Now, I have shared Benedictine and Gregorian chants with Protestant friends, thinking how holy and beautiful those are [to me at least] only to see them almost “wince” and then comment that it seems so “dead” and “funeral-like” to them! Totally depressing is what some have told me!
Really?!!!

The exact opposite effect on me! So, then again, maybe it wouldn’t be some people’s “cup of tea”, but being respectful of the HS WHO bears the gifts.

It is probably better to err in tolerance and it not be true, than to err in negating the possibility, in case it really IS the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life HIMSELF! No?

I share your love for Benedictine and Gregorian chant.
However … if I ever witnesses charismatics in action (speaking in tongues) during a mass … i would be EXTREMELY offended.

I’ll stop the post now … I’m getting perturbed just thinking about such a BLASPHEMY.

michel

 

[reisender]

I have to say that ‘speaking in tongues’ has got to be the most hilariously ridiculous thing silly christians do. It’s sad really.

 

[cazayoux]

I have to say that ‘speaking in tongues’ has got to be the most hilariously ridiculous thing silly christians do. It’s sad really.

As long as you realize that not all Christians do this … or even condone it.

I think one of the most hilariously ridiculous things atheists do is to hold a belief for which they have absolutely no proof whatsoever. Illogical, ain’t it? It’s sad really.

michel

 

[Arkguy]

If you are Catholics and the Catholic Church has a Charismatic Catholic Renewal which is approved of by the Catholic Church and you believe the Catholic Church has the authority to make these decisions, aren’t you questioning your own church and acting more like Baptist or Church of Christ in your prejudice against tongues? Basically you are saying the Catholic Church is in error in sanctioning these charisms or gifts. I don’t make up tongues. It is very real. Why would I make it up in my own home? Paul said “I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all”. If you don’t understand it or don’t want it then don’t partake. But I guarantee that anyone who has spoken in tongues while the spirit of God gave the utterance will never doubt their experience.

 

[reisender]

As long as you realize that not all Christians do this … or even condone it.

I think one of the most hilariously ridiculous things atheists do is to hold a belief for which they have absolutely no proof whatsoever. Illogical, ain’t it? It’s sad really.

michel

Interesting, that’s exactly what christians do, and what atheists don’t.
Christians hold their belief without proof, and atheists reject that belief.
Illogical and sad, yes.

And yeah, I know not all christians pretend to speak in tongues.

 

[cazayoux]

If you are Catholics and the Catholic Church has a Charismatic Catholic Renewal which is approved of by the Catholic Church and you believe the Catholic Church has the authority to make these decisions, aren’t you questioning your own church and acting more like Baptist or Church of Christ in your prejudice against tongues? Basically you are saying the Catholic Church is in error in sanctioning these charisms or gifts. I don’t make up tongues. It is very real. Why would I make it up in my own home? Paul said “I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all”. If you don’t understand it or don’t want it then don’t partake. But I guarantee that anyone who has spoken in tongues while the spirit of God gave the utterance will never doubt their experience.

I am Catholic … 1000%

1 - The magesterium has not infallibly stated as a doctrine that I must believe that those that gather in large groups and speak in tongues are genuinely speaking in tongues.

2 - The Charismatic Movement that the Catholic Church has approved is not equated to that group of babblers that claim they are speaking in tongues. There is a disconnect.

3 - I am called to question everything. I have done exactly this with every doctrine.

4 - Paul DID say that … you should read the rest of what he said in that chapter.

I do not believe those in these groups are actually receiving that *minor *gift of the holy spirit. I think they are deluding themselves… putting on a show for themselves or those around them. I see it as a lack of faith on their part … like they need proof that the Holy Spirit is with them. I have faith … I don’t need the proof. I think those people would better spend their time using the permanent gifts of the Holy Spirit (Counsel, Fortitude, Piety, Fear of the Lord, Understanding, Knowledge, Wisdome) to produce the Fruits of the Holy Spirit and actually build up the Body of Christ.

The gift is supposed to have a purpose … to build up the body of believers. If you are speaking tongues in your home by yourself … what’s the point?

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Interesting, that’s exactly what christians do, and what atheists don’t.
Christians hold their belief without proof, and atheists reject that belief.
Illogical and sad, yes.

And yeah, I know not all christians pretend to speak in tongues.

reisender … you believe that no God exists, right?
You have no proof for this position.
You fault me for believing in something that I cannot prove to you, but you yourself do the same. There is a name for that.

Be honest … the position you hold … is held on … faith.

michel

 

[Arkguy]

To me the gift of tongues is a very wonderful experience. A precious Gift from God. Something very holy. To hear it described as gibberish and rediculous and sad is hurtful. What if I was making fun of the Eucharist. You would also be very offended. Also we have shared many scriptures for speaking in tongues. I suppose you also find the early church rediculous. If your heart is hardened against it then you will not see it. But to call people with this gift names and say they are prideful,etc. Maybe you should quit judging them and check your own heart. I really think you are close to being mockers and scoffers. True study and investigation is to be condoned but making fun of people worshipping and praising God is something I think is very dangerous.

 

[reisender]

reisender … you believe that no God exists, right?
You have no proof for this position.
You fault me for believing in something that I cannot prove to you, but you yourself do the same. There is a name for that.

Be honest … the position you hold … is held on … faith.

michel

So, you’ve admitted that believing in something that you cannot prove is illogical and sad.
And you do just that.

Next you accuse me of doing the same. So we are both illogical and sad?
You make the common misconception of atheists many christians do.
I do not believe that no gods exist. I do not hold that belief.

The definition of atheism is
a = without
theism = a belief in god(s)

Simple as that.

“I do not believe in gods”
does not equal
“I believe there are no gods”

 

[cazayoux]

To me the gift of tongues is a very wonderful experience. A precious Gift from God. Something very holy. To hear it described as gibberish and rediculous and sad is hurtful. What if I was making fun of the Eucharist. You would also be very offended. Also we have shared many scriptures for speaking in tongues. I suppose you also find the early church rediculous. If your heart is hardened against it then you will not see it. But to call people with this gift names and say they are prideful,etc. Maybe you should quit judging them and check your own heart. I really think you are close to being mockers and scoffers. True study and investigation is to be condoned but making fun of people worshipping and praising God is something I think is very dangerous.

Of course I do not find the early church ridiculous. The gift of tongues in the early church, along with many other gifts, is probably a big part of the miracle of the survival of our beautiful faith during those first, horrific centuries.

I understand that my tone is a bit … rough. I do believe that a couple of the spiritual works of mercy are to instruct and admonish. I can prove the Eucharist, with the True Presence, is as real today as it was in the early church and every day in between. In NO way can you equate the centerpoint of our entire faith with what is listed as the least of the gifts holy spirit.

I realize that my stating what I believe about this … issue … comes off sounding bad. I can’t help that I doubt this group tounges thing. This group charismatic speaking in tongues thing didn’t exist for hundreds of years … and has only shown back up in the last century … AFTER some protestants have done this. I have doubts … Do you suggest that I just keep quiet and wait until I believe it?

michel

 

[grannymh]

I share your love for Benedictine and Gregorian chant.
However … if I ever witnesses charismatics in action (speaking in tongues) during a mass … i would be EXTREMELY offended.

I’ll stop the post now … I’m getting perturbed just thinking about such a BLASPHEMY.

michel

Have you ever heard a song sung in Gregorian chant during Mass? A song in Spanish? You must have been offended from the way you talk above? And why would you call this beautiful music blasphemy?

The “witness” was listening to a song beautifully sung. There really is no reason to be rude.

 

[grannymh]

Let’s look at the scripture you cite.

1 Cor 14:14-19
[14] For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
[15] What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
[16] Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how can any one in the position of an outsider say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?
[17] For you may give thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified.
[18] I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all;
[19] nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

In no way does this advocate a group of people speaking gibberish all at the same time. In fact … it is a detractor for exactly that kind of activity. It is even a warning against one person ‘speaking’ so many words if ‘any one’ of the hearers cannot understand.

My post did not refer to a group of people speaking gibberish so I will consider the above N/A.

]I disagree that the text is equating ‘praying with the spirit’ with ‘speaking in tongues’. His instruction is if you are praying in a tongues to pray with the spirit and the mind. These are different.

I am guessing you read the post too fast. St. Paul refers to his praying in the spirit which is known as the common gift of praying in prayer tongues. I did not say “speaking in tongues.” Please note that the gift of prayer tongues is not the same as the gift of speaking in tongues. You must include both verses 1Corinthians 14: 13 & 14 in order to understand the difference between the two gifts.

In 1 Corinthians 14: 13-19, St. Paul is referring to himself, how he differentiates between the two gifts and how he chooses between them. St. Paul is explaining how he, himself is able to use two separate and distinct gifts. If you wish to interpret that as Paul instructing the Corinthians, that is your privilege.

There is no definition of ‘classic’, ‘normal’, or ‘permanence’.
You are reading something into the text that is not actually there.

I never said that a definition of those words were in the Bible text so I will consider the above N/A. If you wish to consider the word example the same as the word definition, that is your privilege.

I do not see in scripture or the catechism the idea that the miraculous gift of speaking in tongues is permanent, either before or upon first yielding to it.

The reason you did not see any notation that the gift of speaking in tongues is permanent is because the gift of speaking in tongues is not permanent. You may be confusing the gift of speaking in tongues with the common gift of praying in prayer tongues.

My fear is that some in the charismatic community over-emphasize this lesser gift of speaking in tongues. I do not believe this action on their part is the genuine gift of the Holy Spirit.

Again, there is confusion between the common gift of praying in prayer tongues and the gift of speaking in tongues. St. Paul refers to the lesser gift of praying in prayer tongues. Apparently he is aware that this common gift is being over-emphasized. St. Paul’s fear continues today because humans are human in their flaws. If I understand your second sentence correctly-- the action of over-emphasizing or under-emphasizing does not change the gift itself of the Holy Spirit in any way. If you see that differently, that is your privilege.

They would do better to spend that time using the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit that ARE permanent (counsel, fortitude, piety, wisdom, knowledge, understanding, fear of the lord) to produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

The Isaiah gifts above are not in opposition to St. Paul’s list of gifts. However, it is your privilege to choose whatever gifts you wish to develop.

Please do not take my objections and investigation into your claims as disrespectful. This is not at all my intent, and very much do not want you to take it in a negative way.

And I hope that you will not take my attempts at being precise about the gifts in a negative way.

Know that I pray unceasingly for guidance and sincerely hope that it is not a mis-step to put these claims up to the same rigorous scrutiny that I would any claim made by a non-Catholic Christian about my faith.

with love

michel

Please know that the claims, as you call them, have already been put to rigorous scrutiny by St. Paul. Experts also examined the various gifts of the Holy Spirit which resulted in naming St. Paul’s list as the classical gifts to distinguish them from the other gifts, ministries, and offices named by St. Paul. Other experts have called St. Paul’s list “charismatic” to distinguish them from the “personal” gifts connected with Confirmation. Speaking of rigorous scrutiny, I hope yours includes the mission of the Holy Spirit within the Catholic Church. BTW, I am not a non-Catholic Christian.

Blessings,
granny

All human beings are worthy of profound respect.

 

[cazayoux]

So, you’ve admitted that believing in something that you cannot prove is illogical and sad.

Actually I stated that I could not prove it to you.
If you are on this site … making these comments … I surmise that you are actually a ‘strong’ or ‘explicit’ atheist, now masquerading as a ‘weak’ or ‘implicit’ atheist, and would not accept any proof of the existence of God, even if it has been so thoroughly and logically discussed by some of the greatest minds in history. But I’m sure your logic is better than those giants like Plato and Aquinas.

And you do just that.

Next you accuse me of doing the same. So we are both illogical and sad?

I have absolutely no problem with you thinking that I am sad for having my Christian beliefs.

You make the common misconception of atheists many christians do.
I do not believe that no gods exist. I do not hold that belief.

The definition of atheism is
a = without
theism = a belief in god(s)

Simple as that.

“I do not believe in gods”
does not equal
“I believe there are no gods”

I’m slow … so be gentle.

Answer this question for me.
Does God exist?

(there will be a followup question)

michel

 

[grannymh]

I have to say that ‘speaking in tongues’ has got to be the most hilariously ridiculous thing silly christians do. It’s sad really.

That is your privilege to think that way. Though, it makes me wonder what your criteria is for reverend.

 

[Arkguy]

Granny, I would love to have a prayer meeting with you right now. You are truly a child of God. Such patience and wisdom. Thankyou.

Michael

I believe I can prove Tongues is for today. Obviously I haven’t proven it to you. You say you can prove the Real Presence. Obviously many Protestants beg to differ. So I really don’t understand this point.

I agree to disagree with you. Nobody can make you believe in this. It comes by God’s grace and a true hunger and an open heart.

I pray for God’s blessings in your life. I know you are studying and I commend you for this.

Chuck

 

[grannymh]

If you are Catholics and the Catholic Church has a Charismatic Catholic Renewal which is approved of by the Catholic Church and you believe the Catholic Church has the authority to make these decisions, aren’t you questioning your own church and acting more like Baptist or Church of Christ in your prejudice against tongues? Basically you are saying the Catholic Church is in error in sanctioning these charisms or gifts. I don’t make up tongues. It is very real. Why would I make it up in my own home? Paul said “I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all”. If you don’t understand it or don’t want it then don’t partake. But I guarantee that anyone who has spoken in tongues while the spirit of God gave the utterance will never doubt their experience.

Your speaking up in defense of the Holy Spirit is appreciated. What you are describing is officially known as praying in prayer tongues and is exactly what Paul was referring to. Imagine praying to God in the same way St. Paul did!

 

[reisender]

I just want to say that I think this is the wrong thread for this.
Surely you can learn something about atheism from other threads.

Actually I stated that I could not prove it to you.
If you are on this site … making these comments … I surmise that you are actually a ‘strong’ or ‘explicit’ atheist, now masquerading as a ‘weak’ or ‘implicit’ atheist, and would not accept any proof of the existence of God, even if it has been so thoroughly and logically discussed by some of the greatest minds in history.

More assumptions. I’m sorry I don’t fit in to your strawman.

But I’m sure your logic is better than those giants like Plato and Aquinas.

Appeal to authority.

Answer this question for me.
Does God exist?

Define ‘God’.

 

[cazayoux]

I am guessing you read the post too fast. St. Paul refers to his praying in the spirit which is known as the common gift of praying in prayer tongues. I did not say “speaking in tongues.” Please note that the gift of prayer tongues is not the same as the gift of speaking in tongues. You must include both verses 1Corinthians 14: 13 & 14 in order to understand the difference between the two gifts.

Is verse 16-17 regarding only one of the gifts? which? or is it both?
It seems that that last subject was ‘praying with the spirit’ (praying in tongues) … if we do view this verse as discussing different things.

However, I don’t see that there is a difference. It seems Paul is talking about the same thing … unless you think that ‘speaking in tongues’ is something other than prayer.

Verse 14 starts with ‘For …’ … it is a lead in from the previous sentence, not a new subject.

Verse 16, at best is talking about only ‘praying in the spirit’ is mentions that others need to know what you are saying… in other words, ‘praying in the spirit’ is audible. How is audible praying not ‘speaking’.

In 1 Corinthians 14: 13-19, St. Paul is referring to himself, how he differentiates between the two gifts and how he chooses between them. St. Paul is explaining how he, himself is able to use two separate and distinct gifts.

I don’t see that he is differentiating between ‘speaking in tongues’ and ‘praying in tongues’. He says ‘speaking’ in 13, ‘praying’ in 14 and 15, ‘singing’ in 15, ‘bless’ in 16 and obviously needed something audible here for the context to make sense, 17 is the crux of the teaching, 18 he’s back on ‘speaking’.
The teaching here (see 17-19) is that the gift is for the edification of the Body of Christ, not the individual.

If you wish to interpret that as Paul instructing the Corinthians, that is your privilege.

Of course I do … that is his primary audience.

I never said that a definition of those words were in the Bible text so I will consider the above N/A. If you wish to consider the word example the same as the word definition, that is your privilege.

You stated that the gift (whether it be speaking or praying in tongues - I think Paul wasn’t making a distinction between two gifts) was permanent from the first time you yield to it. I just want to know where that teaching comes from.

If I understand your second sentence correctly-- the action of over-emphasizing or under-emphasizing does not change the gift itself of the Holy Spirit in any way. If you see that differently, that is your privilege.

Then I mispoke … I do not believe what those people in large groups do is from the Holy Spirit.

Please know that the claims, as you call them, have already been put to rigorous scrutiny by St. Paul.

Oh … it’s not St. Paul I doubt.

Experts also examined the various gifts of the Holy Spirit which resulted in naming St. Paul’s list as the classical gifts to distinguish them from the other gifts, ministries, and offices named by St. Paul.

Ahh … these are the guys I need to know about … if these are the ones that say that the gift of praying in tongues is permanent once you yield to it. Help me out. GIve me one of the expert’s name so that I can do some research.

Other experts have called St. Paul’s list “charismatic” to distinguish them from the “personal” gifts connected with Confirmation.

I don’t have an issue with the naming of this group of gifts or that group of gifts. However, I’d like to know at least one of these other experts as well. If I research this other expert, I may find something about that first group of experts, too.

Speaking of rigorous scrutiny, I hope yours includes the mission of the Holy Spirit within the Catholic Church.

Of course it does.

BTW, I am not a non-Catholic Christian.

I thought you were Catholic from the start.

regards,
Michel