Speaking in tongues

[thevoiceofone]

I look to Romans 14. Paul clearly indicates that faithful people can have different beliefs regarding how to worship, and how faith should manifest itself in our lives. I have to believe that the Holy Spirit really does lead different people in different ways. It’s not one-size-fits-all.

In the early church there might have been a single local option for church attendance, and Paul stresses that differences among members should be tolerated. Over time, as the body of believers increases in a locality, and other options for church attendance appear, I would expect that like-minded people in regards to things like diet or observing the sabbath would tend to congregate together. The different congregations can adhere to the same Gospel, but put it into practice differently.

I should have responded to this more directly, but I forgot until after I submitted the last reply. I agree with most of this, but I feel I should clarify how I see it from a Catholic point of view. I don’t agree exactly with your wording of what Paul is “clearly indicating.” More than anything, the point he is trying to make is to those who would judge their brother(s) for observing various practices in a different (lesser, in particular) way than themselves, especially the observance of the Jewish traditions (diet, Sabbath) that were less meaningful to the Gentile Christians. So, Paul is dealing with the lesser effects of the Judaizers’ mindset than the need for circumcision or other such errors. Observing the old diet and the Sabbath would not hinder a Christian from keeping the new Tradition, and so it is allowed, and should not be judged. My daughter was just telling me yesterday about one of her classmates (she goes to a Catholic school) whose mom wants them to celebrate all the Jewish holidays, and she thought that was strange… I had to explain to her why that was perfectly fine for them to do so as long as it didn’t take away from their observance of the Christian calendar.

Paul does acknowledge the point I think you are trying to make, also, to some degree, but it’s really just a matter of individual discipline in the types of observances that are better for the individual to live a holy life. Some Catholics don’t eat meat on Friday, but some do. It’s a good observance to uphold, I think, but the Church doesn’t consider it a sin to not do so. That’s the same kind of discipline that I am seeing in what Paul says. I think it ties into Jesus’s parable of the talents. Each of the three men were given different measures of talents; two used theirs wisely, while the one did not, and they were judged accordingly. While they were each given different measures, they were still each given the same material - the talents. That’s where I see it differently from you, I think. What you have said, to me, makes it seem more like people receive a different spirit, instead of the same Spirit with different gifts. I know that’s not what you’re trying to say, of course. I know you believe in one Holy Spirit, one third of the Trinity. Likewise, I believe in the one Church… one faith.

As much as I know we would agree upon theologically, there remain huge differences in how you and I (we Catholics) practice our faith, mostly in reference to the mass… the Eucharist, especially. That is something that can not be different among us Catholics no matter what extra observances we may make. Before I go further, let me quote you…

 

[thevoiceofone]

Based on what I’ve read from Catholics here, this also occurs in your parishes. Different parishes do things differently. The leaders have different personalities. There are different activities available. Catholics switch parishes to find one that suits them. It’s not noticed so much since I gather that fellowship is not emphasized as much. Catholics aren’t necessarily missed in one parish if they switch to another.

What you said above is basically true, yes. But, to clarify, the things we do differently are really outside the mass, outside the sacraments, and outside the basic rules of the Church. The church building may be structured and decorated differently, there may or may not be an organ, things like that, but I can go to any Catholic mass and still know exactly what to do and when to do it. I have gone to the Spanish mass before (I don’t speak Spanish very well, at all) and got along just fine, responding in English to what I know was being said in Spanish. Of course, there are differences among the personalities of the people. Each church community is unique in the same way individuals are unique in their appearance and disposition, and, sometimes, their mistakes. That is all true. I don’t deny that.

But, the differences you may see among Catholic parishes are different than the differences you see among Protestant parishes. The Assembly of God has a fairly established “backbone” to keep its churches in line (thankfully), but nothing compared to the unity of the Catholic Church. Surely, priests vary in their ability to communicate the teachings of the Church well and properly. But, they will be checked by the bishop (or the congregation) eventually, if they are in error. And, some parishes are richer or poorer, depending on their place in the world, and the members of the parish may or may not be as motivated, inspired, or able to step up and minister to their community as the members of another parish, but they are still in communion, they are still of one mind… the mind of the Church.

It is also true that some Catholics go to a different parish to suit themselves. They’re not really supposed to do that. Just as your address determines where your child will go to public school, our address (in America, anyway - I don’t know about the rest of the world) determines which parish we are supposed to attend. Of course, it’s not a sin to go to a parish you prefer, but you’re meant to go and participate in your own intended parish. I will confess that I am guilty of this. My home parish is about 90% Hispanic. I am not racist, and I do not fear being in the minority, at all. To the contrary, I quite love our Hispanic community, and they have a better sense of fellowship than the white portion of us. But, my wife and children want to be able to interact more with the people and to better understand the words of the priest (the priest at our home parish was not raised to speak English, so he doesn’t speak it very well, tho he is a great and humble man that inspires me nonetheless). So, we go to a parish farther from our home, usually, but I still tithe to my home parish.

Anyway, I know we are way off topic, but I wanted to clarify my point of view regarding the things you said.

Peace.

 

[PLeeD]

The pastor went out of town to a concert (the Police) in Dallas… a lot of people thought he shouldn’t have done that…

Sounds like the same people who are part of the anti-drum set brigade.

For the record, I wouldn’t be too concerned about my pastor attending a Police concert. Other bands? There are definitely some that would cause me concern, but not something mainstream like the Police.

 

[Barbkw]

Because speaking in tongues originated from the Holy Spirit, it’s also relevant to include research into:

Gifts of the Holy Spirit : google.com/search?q=gifts+of+the+spirit+catechism+&rlz=1I7ADBR_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7

Fruits of the Holy Spirit : google.com/search?q=fruits+of+the+spirit+catechism+&rlz=1I7ADBR_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7

 

[grannymh]

Is it your understanding that praying in tongues is the Holy Spirit speaking to God on our behalf, while speaking in tongues is the Holy Spirit delivering a message to us from God?

Yes. I agree with that description. The reason for common ground is that we are going back to a common point in history, Pentecost. Where we will differ is in our doctrines of faith and different understandings of Scripture and maybe the way we use the gifts. We also differ regarding the Sacraments.

It is important to note that we are not joining each other’s churches as some people think when common ground is mentioned. We are sharing our knowledge and experiences regarding the one Holy Spirit.

In our church you wouldn’t notice the use of tongues except for the obvious cases of tongues/interpretation. I’ve heard some people pray in tongues quietly to themselves, but never as making a spectacle of themselves.

Down the road, I would like us to explore the uses of the gift of praying in tongues. For years, I have prayed in tongues without any sound at all. When a poster questioned me about it, I verified the practice with one of the leaders in our area.

I have a feeling that is what was happening at Corinth. People were praying loudly in tongues all at once, causing much confusion and misunderstanding in other people.

I also see that happening. However, it was pointed out to me in some previous verses that Paul was also deeply concerned about the over emphasis of the common gift of prayer tongues so that the “ministry” gifts were not practiced as often as they should be. I think that is very possible because I see something similar happening today as some people use the gift of praying in tongues as a badge of pride.

I’ve never witnessed that sort of occurrence with groups of people speaking or praying in tongues all at the same time. Occasionally, I’ve seen two different people start to speak in tongues at the same time, then stop, and one will proceed. This is understandable, and doesn’t detract from the validity of the message, given that initiation of the speech is expected to be voluntary and at the discretion of the individual.

This deserves further discussion. I am happy that finally someone from another faith is reporting what is supposed to happen with the gift of speaking God’s message in tongues.

Also, I’m really unclear as to how interpretation manifests itself. I’ve never experienced that, and haven’t talked about it to anyone who has.

Remind me to share what I know about speaking in tongues with the requirement of an interpreter. I have been present when this happens outside of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I make this distinction because of some confusion I have run into. For now, we both agree that discernment is necessary.

Blessings,
granny

*1 Timothy 2: 1-4 *

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

A question (and I mean it without any disrespect, OK?)…

My question: if you are praying in tongues, how do you know that it is from God, and that you are not subconciously making it up to yourself?

Again, this is a serious question meant with no disrespect.

 

[grannymh]

A question (and I mean it without any disrespect, OK?)…

My question: if you are praying in tongues, how do you know that it is from God, and that you are not subconciously making it up to yourself?

Again, this is a serious question meant with no disrespect.

Praying in tongues is a wonderful, beautiful gift of the Holy Spirit.

Your question is valid in at least three instances. The first is when people are prayed over especially at the end of a Life in the Spirit Seminar. People naturally wonder if what they are praying is really the gift. The second is when people are prayed over and do not apparently have the gift immediately. When they receive the gift a few days later in the shower, there can be doubts. The third instance is when a person receives the gift individually without being prayed over. This does happen.

Since I am unable to respond to your question immediately, I hope others will. I will try to catch up with this thread later.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Thank you for your response

So, am I correct that praying in tongues must be a received gift, ie, someone must lay hands on you for you to “get” the gift?

 

[grannymh]

Thank you for your response

So, am I correct that praying in tongues must be a received gift, ie, someone must lay hands on you for you to “get” the gift?

The word “must” is not in the vocabulary of the Holy Spirit.

Praying in tongues is a gift. However, it does happen that a person can receive the gift without being prayed over or having someone laying hands. In other words, the gift is received on the spot. This will occur when someone knows about the gift and has the desire to receive it and the willingness to yield to the Holy Spirit.

Most often the gift is received by being prayed over. However, be open to the Holy Spirit whenever He comes with His gifts.

Before I leave, it is important to know that the gift is kind of a supernatural partnership with the Holy Spirit. I would love to continue this conversation, but I am traveling…

If anyone is thinking about receiving the gift of praying in tongues, I would suggest continuing with one’s spiritual practices. Spend time praying to the Holy Spirit asking for grace to do God’s will. If there is Eucharistic Adoration in the area, spend time there. I encourage people to stop in for 10 minutes.

A Catholic should be going to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as often as possible and should be receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation on a regular basis. Saying the Rosary or other prayers is important. Whatever good works can be done should be done.

My apology, but I need to leave.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16 & 17

 

[PLeeD]

My question: if you are praying in tongues, how do you know that it is from God, and that you are not subconciously making it up to yourself?

First off, I haven’t prayed in tongues a lot. Less than a dozen times probably, and always in private. It’s been a couple of years since I’ve done it.

The way that I know it’s of God is that I’m already deep into worship at the time, and already feeling His presence. I’ve only done it in connection with private praise and worship sessions. That’s how I get closest to God - just me and my guitar in a dark room with the doors closed. Then, when I’ve already drawn near to Him through regular prayer and singing songs of praise, I’ve initiated prayer in tongues.

It is odd feeling. Seems sort of embarrassing and silly at first, but also brings a distinct peace.

As far as whether you are making it up yourself, you just have to kind of let go of voluntary action and let it flow. It can be hard to “yield” in that way at first.

BTW, I’m not sure I’ve ever had “laying of hands” on me. Guess I might have without knowing it, and the gift didn’t emerge at the time.

Often times, though, when people are baptized it will be accompanied by tongues. This didn’t happen when I was baptized. Looking back, with the feeling that I had coming out of the water, I think I would have if I’d had some idea how.

But, I was really unclear on tongues at the time, and erroneously assumed like a lot of people do, that it was sort of an involuntarily occurring “trance”-like activity. It’s not. Once you get started, the words come involuntarily, but you are in full control of starting and stopping it. It usually doesn’t happen spontaneously.

 

[grannymh]

Briefly.

I located the posts I’ve done on actually praying in tongues. I will be happy to answer questions.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=481947

The posts in this thread are 104, 105, 106, 107.
My previous posts answered questions.

Please, all of you say a prayer that I don’t do something stupid rushing like I am.
PleeD – get out your guitar.

Thanks,
granny

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Prayers offered

Thanks for the responses

 

[grannymh]

Prayers offered

Thanks for the responses

I am toward the end of my trip. I did do something dumb and read the time of plane departure wrong. All I can say is that God heard your prayers and inspired people to help me get through security and make it to the plane.

What is it about random acts of kindness? Small courtesies can make a big difference.

Thank you.
grannny

John 3: 16&17

 

[grannymh]

First off, I haven’t prayed in tongues a lot. Less than a dozen times probably, and always in private. It’s been a couple of years since I’ve done it.

You have described giving God’s message in tongues during your service.

Have you ever prayed to God in tongues as a group instead of singing one of the songs?

 

[PLeeD]

You have described giving God’s message in tongues during your service.

Glad you made it back OK

Let me be clear. I’ve never given a message in tongues at all. I’ve personally never spoken in tongues, or interpreted. I have witnessed the practice almost weekly for the last eight years. That’s what I was describing - others delivering a message in tongues, and subsequent interpretation.

Have you ever prayed to God in tongues as a group instead of singing one of the songs?

I think I’ve prayed quietly in tongues a few times during regular Sunday morning worship. That’s the only sense in which I’ve prayed in tongues with a group. It really was more of a private thing that happened to be conducted in the presence of others, but no one else would have known I was praying in tongues.

I’ve never been part of a group whose stated purpose is to pray in tongues together. It sounds like that’s what you do? Are people praying in tongues out loud all at the same time?

That’s not common practice in our tradition as far as I know. Praying in tongues has always been presented as a practice for private prayer. It might be done in the presence of others, but the purpose is still direct communication between God and the Holy Spirit, for the edification of the individual and not the group. I’m not aware of any teaching in our church that doing it as a group is of benefit.

My playing guitar and singing songs combined with praying in tongues has always been a completely private event.

BTW, this might be of interest. Our pastor has made mention that our practices are a legacy of the Azusa street revival. That event was the precursor of the Assemblies of God churches we see today.

 

[grannymh]

Glad you made it back OK

Me too am glad.

Let me be clear. I’ve never given a message in tongues at all. I’ve personally never spoken in tongues, or interpreted. I have witnessed the practice almost weekly for the last eight years. That’s what I was describing - others delivering a message in tongues, and subsequent interpretation.

You have been clear. Also, from what you have described, your parish is following St. Paul. As I think about St. Paul, it seems that he wanted a regular practice of the charismatic gifts in addition to the celebration of the Lord’s Supper.

I think I’ve prayed quietly in tongues a few times during regular Sunday morning worship. That’s the only sense in which I’ve prayed in tongues with a group. It really was more of a private thing that happened to be conducted in the presence of others, but no one else would have known I was praying in tongues.

From my perspective, this kind or praying tongues quietly is very good but not when one is suppose to be concentrating on the pastor’s sermon.

I’ve never been part of a group whose stated purpose is to pray in tongues together. It sounds like that’s what you do? Are people praying in tongues out loud all at the same time?

Authentic groups in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal gather to practice as many of the Holy Spirit’s gifts as possible. Often, these groups will plan events to benefit the entire parish. I was part of a very active group. However, membership dwindled as people left town, or chose other parish activities, or died. While we lost our dynamic leaders, the remaining group kept the commitment to meet in prayer and worship of God. Eventually, the group disbanded.

Basically, our charismatic prayer group was typical. We would begin by praising God. This included singing and then praying in tongues out loud. However, members would often pray in both English and tongues. There was one devoted member who never used the gift of praying in tongues. We were praying out loud, very respectful of each other. But since the gift of prayer tongues is under the person’s control, some people would pray silently or be still.

As I recall, this community singing and then praying in tongues was about 15-20 minutes. Then we would be silent so that the Holy Spirit could respond.

Some of our members had the classical gift of prophesy (one of the nine listed by St. Paul). This gift is separate from the gift of speaking in tongues. With this gift, a person gives God’s message in the vernacular. In our group, this message was often a quote from Scripture or a similar phrase. It is my observation that what we heard was just the simple beginning of this gift. Nonetheless, the Scripture quote would often touch the heart of another member drawing him or her closer to God.

One more thing which would often happen during this time is that a member felt inspired to read a particular passage from Scripture. We always brought our bibles with us to meetings. Thus, we could read the passage silently along with the presenter.

All of the above was done respectfully. The time spent in the above varied.

At some of our meetings, there would be a teaching. A member would prepare a short talk about some charismatic point. Sometimes, we would have a guest teacher. Sometimes, we would plan a parish-wide event like bringing in a national speaker. Topics often went beyond the charismatic.

We closed the meeting with petitions to God and lots of hugs.

That’s not common practice in our tradition as far as I know. Praying in tongues has always been presented as a practice for private prayer. It might be done in the presence of others, but the purpose is still direct communication between God and the Holy Spirit, for the edification of the individual and not the group. I’m not aware of any teaching in our church that doing it as a group is of benefit.

Perhaps the reason that praying in tongues as a group is not a common practice in your tradition is that the Catholic tradition includes both the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and various types of prayer and prayer groups outside of Mass.

As for the benefits of praying in tongues in a group, you may think of some benefits of doing this outside of your service. It would be like the groups who pray the rosary before Mass. Or maybe like bible study groups. This needs thinking about.

My playing guitar and singing songs combined with praying in tongues has always been a completely private event.

God loves you for that.

BTW, this might be of interest. Our pastor has made mention that our practices are a legacy of the Azusa street revival. That event was the precursor of the Assemblies of God churches we see today.

I am definitely interested in that bit of information. Since the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is a Johnny-come-lately, I am interested in other responders to the Holy Spirit.

This covers a lot of ground. Maybe we should discuss some of this separately…

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16 & 17