Speaking in tongues

[grannymh]

Sure, I went to a Catholic school from 6-12 grade. One year, our new theology teacher (from the northeast) claimed to be charismatic and would stand in front of the class, “speaking in tongues.” Which, as you can imagine, led to middle and high school students trying to mimic. It would be in the middle of class at “reflection” time, etc. To me, granted I’m more traditional, it was just babble. It might have been for the sake of “appearing more holy” or trying to impress some high school kids. I wasn’t buying it. I found it to be extremely distracting and really took away from the class exercise of reflection. That being said, I don’t know if it was intentional or no (I’m led to believe she was just making noise), but I’m not going to hold it against her. Everybody worships different and that’s fine. I just don’t like seeing people do things for appearance sake. And I’ve had to work on judging folks that I think are. It’s not so much a problem now as it was in high school.

Thank you for sharing the situation.

In the middle of “reflection” time sounds as if the teacher was praying in Tongues which does not need anyone’s interpretation. Praying in Tongues is basically up to the individual and can be considered free speech. I do know that in some areas, information about praying in Tongues is given to students preparing for the Catholic Sacrament of Confirmation. Presenting Catholic information is the key. That way, students can eventually make informed decisions, yes or no, regarding the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

I would agree that your reaction is typical and should be expected if there is no concrete information provided. Even if there were some instructions about this gift, common courtesy would dictate praying in Tongues quietly so that others could “reflect” in their own way.

In any case, a high school theology class is not the same as a “Catholic Life in the Spirit” seminar for those who are interested in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Within this type of seminar, which can be one night a week for five or more weeks, the emphasis is on giving one’s life to Christ in service to the Catholic Church. This means receiving the Sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist. There is a lot more to this seminar, but for now I will simply comment that a “reflection” time is not doing the job.

Normally, a high school class would not come under the supervision of the diocesan vicar for spiritually. If she were not teaching Catholic doctrines correctly, then one could notify the school’s principle and upward. However, from what I have heard about some Catholic education in some dioceses, one is lucky to learn the Our Father – this is an exaggeration, but I am sure there are people who know what I am referring to.

As to your response to my eaves dropping question, you are right we are having a good debate so far. At this time, I cannot really comment because I am still stuck with the problem that people need to understand how Tongues are used. Neither gift is to be used as a spectacle for appearances sake.

I sincerely wish I knew how I could convince some people that it is not important to understand the sounds used in prayer Tongues. My apology, I understand your position, but that still leaves the other posters who basically want to be eavesdroppers. How else can I describe wanting to know someone’s personal prayer to God?

 

[cjforJesus]

Thank you! Many people are very confused about that. St. Paul has two different sorts of the gift of tongues. A form given for instruction and a form given for prayer. Obviously the form that’s instruction requires an interpretation if the language isn’t known. But the form that’s prayer obviously doesn’t… it’s recipient is God Himself, so He knows what’s being expressed. It doesn’t matter if anybody understands it… the only person who would need to is God.

I myself have the prayer form of this gift, as do many many many people I know. It’s a very profound gift, very symbolic, very powerful and very widely given. St. Paul makes clear the purpose of this gift in 1 Cor 14:4 “One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.” The word used in Greek indicates a building up of, literally… builds a temple to God in his heart.

Thus, praying in tongues builds the individual up into the living Temple of God, through praising God in the power of the Holy Spirit. And then by the right order of praise in the individual’s heart, he is then able to go and bring the Holy Spirit to other’s. It’s a very old and commonly accepted principle: the effects of our apostolate depend in a very concrete way upon our own interior life.

For people who are still confused about this gift, I recommend this 1 minute sound byte from Dr. Peter Kreeft: peterkreeft.com/audio/misc/peter-kreeft_gift-of-tongues.mp3

Then he is able to bring the Holy Spirit to others?" I am sorry but that is not Catholic theology.The bishops as the successors are granted the annointing on the baptised and this occurs at CONFIRMATION. You are negating the effects of one of the most important sacraments as the catechism states we receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit just as the apostles did at Pentecost.

 

[Rudy_Baga]

It’s not the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to be cautious or even suspicious of activities. And we **should **use the gift of right judgement in trying to determine if such things are from God, from man’s own motives, or from a less holy source. We are not required to attribute all activities as originating from the Holy Spirit. Some may be but others may not.

Corki,
Your point is pretty much the same as mine with a different concern. I did not say that we should automatically attribute everything to the action of the Spirit. What I did say is that we should not judge harshly lest we be wrong in our judgement. Better to not judge than to have called the action of the Spirit evil or demonic. In our limited understanding of things of God, we may not always be certain the source of such manifestations. We can believe that God is able to use any method to bring us closer to him including that which others may consider senseless or valueless. If it does indeed bring one closer, no matter how senseless it may seem, it is rather invaluable in spiritual terms.

A wise man once said, “There are as many paths to God as there are people.” We do not need to fully understand anothers path. Often it is hard enough to even find our own.

 

[grannymh]

May I clear up some serious confusion about the link in post 38?

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal does not “b**ring **the Holy Spirit to others” sacramentally.

I listened to the link in post 38 and there was nothing about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal bringing the Holy Spirit Sacramentally to others.

The serious confusion about the Catholic Sacraments comes from one of the various Pentecostal concepts which seeks a substitution for the Catholic Sacrament of Baptism. By the way, Catholic Baptism is reviewed extensively by the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. In other words, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal brings knowledge about the Holy Spirit to others.

When was the last time one prayed to the Holy Spirit for the graces of Sacramental Baptism?

In fact, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is known for its insistence on a return to the Holy Spirit as the Promised Advocate. Please read Chapter 14 in the Gospel of John.

 

[Rudy_Baga]

Then he is able to bring the Holy Spirit to others?" I am sorry but that is not Catholic theology.The bishops as the successors are granted the annointing on the baptised and this occurs at CONFIRMATION. You are negating the effects of one of the most important sacraments as the catechism states we receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit just as the apostles did at Pentecost.

Anyone who accepts the teaching of Jesus and lives as he instructed brings the Spirit to others. How can you live in the Spirit and not share it along the way? By following the promptings of the Spirit, we are all called to share by example the spirit of Christ. How does that conflict with Catholic theology? I do not think that the comment above was meant to negate the actions of the church as much as to express the action of the believer who speaks in tongues.

 

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by cjforJesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Then he is able to bring the Holy Spirit to others?" I am sorry but that is not Catholic theology.The bishops as the successors are granted the annointing on the baptised and this occurs at CONFIRMATION. You are negating the effects of one of the most important sacraments as the catechism states we receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit just as the apostles did at Pentecost.

Anyone who accepts the teaching of Jesus and lives as he instructed brings the Spirit to others. How can you live in the Spirit and not share it along the way? By following the promptings of the Spirit, we are all called to share by example the spirit of Christ. How does that conflict with Catholic theology? I do not think that the comment above was meant to negate the actions of the church as much as to express the action of the believer who speaks in tongues.

Rudy, you are correct. However, as I understand the posts referring to the Catholic Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation, the issue is about the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation themselves.

In the early days of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, the Catholic Bishops and others who were investigating the Catholic Charismatic Renewal were concerned that the integrity of the Catholic Sacraments would remain. Their conclusion was that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal was renewing the Catholic teachings about Baptism and Confirmation. Therefore, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal emphasized the integrity of these sacraments.

Speaking of the spirituality of Baptism and Confirmation, perhaps it is time to address the spirituality of the basic, common gift of praying in Tongues in a clearer fashion.

In my personal opinion, the spiritual virtue of humility is key to praying in tongues. Yes, humility is key in all ways of prayer. Peter Kreeft, in the link in post 38, made an important point when he referred to the rational consciousness…

 

[CB_Catholic]

Then he is able to bring the Holy Spirit to others?" I am sorry but that is not Catholic theology.The bishops as the successors are granted the annointing on the baptised and this occurs at CONFIRMATION. You are negating the effects of one of the most important sacraments as the catechism states we receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit just as the apostles did at Pentecost.

It appears to me that you have set your opinion above that of the Holy See, which recognizes as legitimate the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (and has for over 30 years). You have been very nasty and insulting in your posts concerning this, which obviously you do not understand, and don’t seem to have any desire to. That is no excuse for your rudeness.

BTW, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in our lives does nothing to negate the Sacrament of Confirmation. The Holy Spirit is not negated or bound by ANYTHING. And you cannot negate a Sacrament–Scripture says He moves where He wills. He can touch lives and reveal Himself, and pour Himself out upon any person He pleases, whenever He pleases, in any way He pleases. He cannot be bound by our merely human perceptions of how we think He ought to act. It is your theology that is off here.

God will not be mocked, and if the Church has given it’s blessing to the Charismatic Renewal, who are you or anyone else to tell people it is not legitimate? You don’t have to join it, but you should show a bit more respect for what the Church considers a legitimate renewal and movement.

And by the way, I have never spoken in tongues in my life, but I consider myself a Charismatic. He has chosen to give me other gifts. All of His gifts are to be used for His glory and to build up, not tear down His Church.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Speaking of the spirituality of Baptism and Confirmation, perhaps it is time to address the spirituality of the basic, common gift of praying in Tongues in a clearer fashion.

In my personal opinion, the spiritual virtue of humility is key to praying in tongues. Yes, humility is key in all ways of prayer. Peter Kreeft, in the link in post 38, made an important point when he referred to the rational consciousness…

Related to granny’s comments about humility, I wanted to add something since there has been reference to people seeing others do it. I’ve never prayed in tongues in front of another person. No one in my personal life knows I have done this at all. At a charismatic Mass, I am not compelled in this way, though other things have happened.

Prayer is prayer. If you see it and it looks odd, or sounds odd, that’s just a matter of familiarity. The is about the disappearance of ego, of self subsumed in God.

 

[Rudy_Baga]

The modern charismatic movement though accepted by the Church seems to be getting far from Catholic belief. We receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.At confirmation we are annointed by the bishops hands and are sealed.We then receive the fullness of the Spirit.

What seems to be happening at these revivals is shaktipat,the transference of an unknown energy or demon
.It is said that being in the presence of just one person who has a risen kundalini is enough to cause others to react.

That may have been what was happening to the man i saw in mass because the woman in front of him is a kundalini yoga instructor who probably has aroused this serpent energy.It is quite probable he was reacting to it.

I know Julia has also dabbled in this false religion too which may explain why she believes this babling is from God.I do not believe it is.

You speak of kundalini. If kundalini can be awakened in thr body as an energy, wouldn’t it stand to reason that God has created it there. The practice of the phylosophy of yoga is what you have the problem with. If the dormant energy is in the body as created, why would you consider it demonic? Why would it have been created? Where do you get the proof that it is demonic? What exactly is your understanding of kundalini? If kundalini is created, why so. And if it is not, why then is it considered dormant in all people? Why would God have allowed it to be so? What of all the yoga practicioners who live lives that would be considered holy if they were christian? Finally, if kundalini was created, then calling it demonic is grossly mistaken. So please point me to an official teaching on kundalini to answer these questions. Otherwise it is all presumption and opinion.

 

[vardaquinn]

Then he is able to bring the Holy Spirit to others?" I am sorry but that is not Catholic theology.The bishops as the successors are granted the annointing on the baptised and this occurs at CONFIRMATION. You are negating the effects of one of the most important sacraments as the catechism states we receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit just as the apostles did at Pentecost.

I’m negating the effects of Confirmation? What? Isn’t part of the whole point of Confirmation to be able to receive the presence and power of the Holy Spirit and then be able to be witnesses to this and bring others to Christ? If you like, I’ll turn that statement around: he is able to bring others to the Holy Spirit. Sure only bishops have the special authority to confirm people, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about conversion.

If we receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit just as the Apostles did at Pentecost, that means we receive all the power they had, and we have the same mission: to bring everyone to Christ. And we have gifts, charisms, that help us do that.

I really don’t understand how you say I’m ‘negating’ the effects of Confirmation. Speaking in tongues often IS one of the effects of Confirmation, as are all the charisms.

 

[cjforJesus]

It appears to me that you have set your opinion above that of the Holy See, which recognizes as legitimate the Catholic Charismatic Renewal (and has for over 30 years). You have been very nasty and insulting in your posts concerning this, which obviously you do not understand, and don’t seem to have any desire to. That is no excuse for your rudeness.

BTW, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in our lives does nothing to negate the Sacrament of Confirmation. The Holy Spirit is not negated or bound by ANYTHING. And you cannot negate a Sacrament–Scripture says He moves where He wills. He can touch lives and reveal Himself, and pour Himself out upon any person He pleases, whenever He pleases, in any way He pleases. He cannot be bound by our merely human perceptions of how we think He ought to act. It is your theology that is off here.

God will not be mocked, and if the Church has given it’s blessing to the Charismatic Renewal, who are you or anyone else to tell people it is not legitimate? You don’t have to join it, but you should show a bit more respect for what the Church considers a legitimate renewal and movement.

And by the way, I have never spoken in tongues in my life, but I consider myself a Charismatic. He has chosen to give me other gifts. All of His gifts are to be used for His glory and to build up, not tear down His Church.

I am sorry to offend you and i did not say the charasmatic movement is not authentic.What I was saying and the church has warned also is that you must TEST the spirits.The church says the gifts must be discerned.It is very clear to me that someone who claims the vatican is hiding the third secret and that sister Lucy had a double is NOT working for the unity of the church.That may be ad hominem but it disturbs me greatly that someone would come on here and claim the vatican is lying and then claim to be a contemplative charasmatic. There is no way no how that the Holy Spirit would condemn the Church Jesus established. The Holy Spirit would not condemn the church.

 

[cjforJesus]

You speak of kundalini. If kundalini can be awakened in thr body as an energy, wouldn’t it stand to reason that God has created it there. The practice of the phylosophy of yoga is what you have the problem with. If the dormant energy is in the body as created, why would you consider it demonic? Why would it have been created? Where do you get the proof that it is demonic? What exactly is your understanding of kundalini? If kundalini is created, why so. And if it is not, why then is it considered dormant in all people? Why would God have allowed it to be so? What of all the yoga practicioners who live lives that would be considered holy if they were christian? Finally, if kundalini was created, then calling it demonic is grossly mistaken. So please point me to an official teaching on kundalini to answer these questions. Otherwise it is all presumption and opinion.

From what i read,I found out kundalini is simply the libido or sexual energy.Yes God created sexual energy.but I do not know if that can be equated with the third person of the Blessed Trinity.

 

[Rudy_Baga]

From what i read,I found out kundalini is simply the libido or sexual energy.Yes God created sexual energy.but I do not know if that can be equated with the third person of the Blessed Trinity.

Energy is energy. Sexual energy is a sexual expression of that energy. As Christians, we are called rather to the expression of love above every other expression. Still the same energy. To disqualify as sexual energy, that which you do not understand, is merely presumption. What is your actual basis for calling the actions you have witnessed as kundalini rather than an expression in the Spirits ability to move?

Please note that I am not saying that every action witnessed is of the Spirit, but rather that it is not safe to make assumptions. Rather let the Lord fulfill this role. Otherwise, you are at risk of attributing the Spirit’s action to being either sexual expression or of demonic origin. Who would willingly dare to cross that line? The church has accepted the Charismatc movement. If there were significant signs of either of these errors, surely, in her great wisdom, she would have addressed them.

 

[cjforJesus]

Energy is energy. Sexual energy is a sexual expression of that energy. As Christians, we are called rather to the expression of love above every other expression. Still the same energy. To disqualify as sexual energy, that which you do not understand, is merely presumption. What is your actual basis for calling the actions you have witnessed as kundalini rather than an expression in the Spirits ability to move?

Please note that I am not saying that every action witnessed is of the Spirit, but rather that it is not safe to make assumptions. Rather let the Lord fulfill this role. Otherwise, you are at risk of attributing the Spirit’s action to being either sexual expression or of demonic origin. Who would willingly dare to cross that line? The church has accepted the Charismatc movement. If there were significant signs of either of these errors, surely, in her great wisdom, she would have addressed them.

The Holy Spirit is not an impersonl “energy”,and I never said legitimate prayer and charisms are demonic. I have no problem with the charasmatic movement as the Church does accept it,but in writings it also cautions for the charisms to benefit the church.always. Anyone with a legitimate charism would never say anything to mock the church.

 

[cjforJesus]

I really apologize for having offended any charasmatics here.I made a grave error when assuming this movement was similar to the well publicized ones where people fall on the floor and shake and such.

This seems to be a beautiful renewal bent on spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ!.

I found this great piece of info that cleared up the confusion for me.

the Sacraments of Initiation we experience the action of the Triune God. As regards the Third Person of the Trinity, in Baptism we become temples of the Holy Spirit; in Eucharist we share in the Body and Blood of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit; in Confirmation we are empowered with the GIFTS and CHARISMS of the Spirit to be witnesses for Jesus Christ. In this statement, we want not only to affirm the good fruit of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal but also the grace which is at the heart of this Renewal, namely, baptism in the Holy Spirit, or the fuller release of the Holy Spirit, as some would prefer (26).

It is not calling down the Holy Spirit but just making people aware that they are the temple and the Spirits charisms were already given at confirmation!

sorry again to offend anyone and God bless .

 

[Julia_Mae]

sorry again to offend anyone and God bless .

Are you admitting this is a lie? Which it is.

I know Julia has also dabbled in this false religion too which may explain why she believes this babling is from God.I do not believe it is.

 

[vardaquinn]

the Sacraments of Initiation we experience the action of the Triune God. As regards the Third Person of the Trinity, in Baptism we become temples of the Holy Spirit; in Eucharist we share in the Body and Blood of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit; in Confirmation we are empowered with the GIFTS and CHARISMS of the Spirit to be witnesses for Jesus Christ. In this statement, we want not only to affirm the good fruit of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal but also the grace which is at the heart of this Renewal, namely, baptism in the Holy Spirit, or the fuller release of the Holy Spirit, as some would prefer (26).

It is not calling down the Holy Spirit but just making people aware that they are the temple and the Spirits charisms were already given at confirmation!

All very well said.