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JimmyG88
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This speaking in ‘tongues’ business seems to be a way of individuals singularising themselves. It’s crazy
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carmenp1
Guest
Kookie is not good.
All I did was pray with another Christian for God to give me the Holy Spirit. It took me a few days. I started off with a few words. Over time I got more and more words.
This gift has helped me to pray when I have been in really desperate situations and didn’t know how to pray. I followed what the bible taught. One was to pray in my own understanding and also pray in the Spirit. The Spirit makes intercession for us when we don’t know how to pray for something. It made sense. The other help was when I was so much in despair and heartache, praying in tongues replaced those things with comfort. God’s presence so evident during the darkest periods of my life.
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grannymh
Guest
This book, A Key to Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church, by Msgr. Vincent M. Walsh,
ISBN: 0-87029-033-9
is an excellent resource. The book is now on line. brendancase.com/uploads/Key_to_the_Charismatic_Renewal.pdf
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
You didn’t answer the question I asked but the question you wanted to answer.
Does anyone else want to answer the question? Are the other gifts of the Holy Spirit that manifest authentic or are they fake as well?
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thistle
Guest
This thread is about the gift of tongues. If you wish to discuss the other gifts then start a new thread.
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
I don’t wish to discuss the other gifts. I want to know from those that think the manifestation of tongues is fake, if they think the other gifts are fake. Especially the OP.
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grannymh
Guest
Correct. Because in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, it is God who makes sense out of prayer Tongues. Please recall that in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal the emphasis is on personal prayer to God. Eavesdroppers are out of luck.
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grannymh
Guest
In the Catholic Charismatical Renewal, ordinary folk pray personal prayers, in Tongues, directly to God. That could be known as singular prayers.
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grannymh
Guest
While there are definite differences between our religions, this understanding of praying in Tongues is common to both of us. It is also common that the Holy Spirit gift of prayer Tongues usually starts with a few sounds and then expands. I thank the Holy Spirit Who has given you this special gift of prayer.
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fhansen
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Any manifestation of the Holy Spirit is always authentic. Various manifestations can also be of purely human origin, as anyone above the age of 21 at least should know-in which case they’re authentically human- of the flesh, not the Spirit.
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Bruised_Reed
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True. But. If most/all manifestations of tongues is fakery then so should the other gifts be, including discernment.
Was the discernment you mentioned in your reply to the OP a gift of the Holy Spirit or natural discernment? Or perhaps no discernment was exercised and she just being uncomfortable with something she doesn’t understand?
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fhansen
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I wasn’t there but I’ve been around enough to have seen this stuff-and even participated-to know that what she described was very similar to my experiences. She simply recognized the raw truth IMO, a discernment which is always spiritual regardless of how otherwise mundane it may appear.
OTOH, the Holy Spirit can and does operate, at His discretion, in very powerful and dramatic-or very subtle and quiet, for that matter-ways in people. The problem is that often people want something to happen to them so badly that, at their *own * discretion, they sort of “help” the HS along. When it’s real, then it’s real; when it’s not, it’s not. I’ve experienced it both ways-and when God touches you in some manner or another, in a way as powerful and overt as tongues would have to be-or as “slaying in the spirit” would have to be- if He were even to do something such as those to begin with, then it could never be denied; you know it and you know where it came from; there’s no maybe. But what I witnessed at Pentecostal meetings was all embarrassingly bogus nonsense. People lined up in assembly line fashion, going down like stacks of cards. As if God were putting on a circus for us. And a circus was all it was. And the “interpretations of tongues” were equally ridiculous.
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ynotzap
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The Catholic Church teaches in the Document of the Lay Apostolate , found in the Documents of Vatican ll, that the Charisms are tools of the laity, as the Holy Spirit gives to each person. Also this is not new, for St.Thomas Aquinas also teaches the functions and purpose of the Charisms which are given to “edify” to build the Mystical Body of Christ. These Charisms do not sanctify, but edify. Christ himself teaches that you can have these gifts, but do not have charity you can go to Hell," for I was hungry you did not give me something to eat…etc. " Jesus before He ascended promised that He would send His Holy Spirit who would empower them and confirm their preaching. this happened and drew many into the church. St.Thomas speaks of the gifts of apostolate, prophecy, discernment of spirits, teaching, exhortation, canticles, tongues, interpretation, and the gift of evangelists. Other gifts were intended of spiritual direction and charitable assistance of the faithful: gifts of government of ministry, of alms, gifts of patronate (of orphans and widows, of hospitality, of faith (effective of miracles), gifts of healing, of power (eg. the resurrection of the dead) the were very important, contributing efficaciously to the growth, and propagation of the faith.
As stated by some posters, St.Paul speaks abundantly of the gifts and their use. I have witnessed and used these gifts as the Holy Spirit granted, they are transitional. I also witnessed Catholics living their faith more deeply. I also witnessed some who didn’t understand their own faith and drifted away. These gift of the Holy Spirit are legitimate. And their use is made known to the Bishops, as I worked of the Bishops Commission Board for the Charismatic Renewal. If one is well instructed in one’s faith this is a very good instrument of “discernment of spirits” The gift of tongues can be used in a group of the faithful who are charismatics and can be interpreted by “inspiration” and can be validated by another, this is a movement of “faith”, tongues can be used for “praise” in private, or in a group. There is also evidence of this in scripture when St. Peter was speaking to Cornelius about the Way (the Good News of Jesus) they broke out in praise. Peter said “Is their any reason we should not baptised them? (para-phrased) This was confirmed for me when I had spiritual dryness is reciting formal prayer. As St.Paul said " I can pray in tongues, and I can pray in my own language” No gift of the Holy Spirit is insignificant no matter how small it appears to be, if God grants it we are thankful. The Charismatic Renewal is just that, a spiritual renewal to energize the faithful, and to edify. The devil has done much in causing mis-understanding among the faithful. We must look at the world’s condition, and especially among the youth, and we need all the spiritual help we can get, or are given.
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Bruised_Reed
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I’ve also observed and participated, but in charismatic renewal, and I’ve had some exposure to an unfortunate mix of Pentecostal and Word of Faith. I have been skeptical, too and I’ve posted in the past about some of my experiences.
What I take issue with is the disbelief that the Holy Spirit is active in Christians, and that the lesser gift of tongues is considered across the board as fake by those not involved in CCR. BTW, I don’t have the gift of tongues. The prayer groups I was involved with had a good balance and there wasn’t pressure to speak in tongues, either. Speaking in tongues was only done in prayer, a prophesy or word of knowledge given in tongues was rare, but like someone said about not being able to hear the priest praying during the Latin Mass, “you don’t have hear [understand] it because he’s not talking to you.”
I’m not close to a charismatic prayer group now and I miss it. It’s weird to be a “solitary practitioner.”
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DebChris
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When I was in Chicago, I was invited to an Apostolic Church. Great emphasis was placed on praying in tongues. Men and women separated and went into their “prayer closets” before joining together for the general assembly. At one point, a boy fell into ecstasy and was immediately baptized. My question at the time was “Where is the discernment?”
The person who had invited me did not understand how I could simply watch everything from the back of the church. She did not understand how I could be unmoved by the preacher. Moreover, she refused my return invitation to come to we worship in the Catholic Church. She could not accept that I knew without any doubts that I would see my father before he died.
Move forward into the future a few months and my life hit a crisis period. I made an Easter retreat and discovered the Charismatic Renewal as part of God’s call on my life. A charism, by definition is a gift of the Holy Spirit. It is not something given because of anything special that we have done or because we are especially deserving. The gift of tongues is one such gift. St. Paul calls it the least of the gifts. The difference between Catholic teaching and what I had observed in the Apostolic church is a matter of attitude. The first is a matter of simply seeking the gift, and the second is seeking the giver of the gifts. If we seek the giver of the gifts, should we refuse the gifts that He has to offer?
The person who had invited me did not understand how I could simply watch everything from the back of the church. She did not understand how I could be unmoved by the preacher. Moreover, she refused my return invitation to come to we worship in the Catholic Church. She could not accept that I knew without any doubts that I would see my father before he died.
Move forward into the future a few months and my life hit a crisis period. I made an Easter retreat and discovered the Charismatic Renewal as part of God’s call on my life. A charism, by definition is a gift of the Holy Spirit. It is not something given because of anything special that we have done or because we are especially deserving. The gift of tongues is one such gift. St. Paul calls it the least of the gifts. The difference between Catholic teaching and what I had observed in the Apostolic church is a matter of attitude. The first is a matter of simply seeking the gift, and the second is seeking the giver of the gifts. If we seek the giver of the gifts, should we refuse the gifts that He has to offer?
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
How would one know if someone gave a prophesy or word of knowledge that says nothing contrary to the faith but isn’t from the Holy Spirit without the charismatic gift of the spirit? This would apply to tongues, as well.
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thistle
Guest
As you know I am greatly skeptical but you believe in the gift of tongues.
I would like to know how you know a person is speaking in tongues and not just faking it and spouting gibberish. The same goes for anyone who stands up and speaks in English allegedly interpreting.
Just because someone claims to speak in tongues does not mean it is so.
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DebChris
Guest
This is a legitimate question. Every prophecy needs to be submitted to discernment. This is especially true for somebody who is new to the Charismatic Renewal.
Before I was a part of the Renewal, I attended a conference in Chicago (not Charismatic). In the talk on discernment, one of the statements made was that it was possible to “become so full of the spirit as to lose sight of the Spirit.” What does that mean? Sometimes in our enthusiasm to share what has happened to us, we forget the reason and purpose of what has happened. We forget to listen.
Several questions do need to be asked regarding prophesy or a word of knowledge. Is it in keeping with Scripture? Is it in keeping with the Magisterium? Is it in keeping with the circumstances of my life? If one of these items is off, it is probably not from the Holy Spirit but rather a matter of personal imagination. A person new to the Renewal is less likely to be as versed in scripture or the Magisterium as somebody who has been part of the Renewal at least ten year, and has been gifted with discernment.
What generally happens in Catholic prayer groups, as opposed to non-Catholic prayer meetings, is that when a person gives a prophesy either in tongues (which is then interpreted), or in English, there will be a confirmation. This confirmation comes from another person within the prayer group who will either give a similar prophecy or read a scriptural passage which confirms what the first person has said. There is no prior coordination between persons.
In large conferences, prophesies are submitted in writing to a discernment committee.
When we hear people speaking in a language we do not understand it sounds like gibberish. If a person is faking it, how long can they keep up the pretense? This is the question that you need to ask yourself?
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JimmyG88
Guest
For authenticity then it should be recorded and submitted to various universities and pontifical institutes for some opinion on if it is indeed a language and perhaps which language or which language family and compare the translations
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grannymh
Guest
There are two different Holy Spirit gifts which use Tongues.
Praying in Tongues personally to God is known as the common gift which is available to all.
To anwer your question “How do I know if a person is speaking in tongues and not just faking it” here is an actual situation.
A close friend and I were on a Bob and Penny Lord Pilgrimage many years ago. We were in Rome when she asked me about Tongues. She wanted to listen to me when I “spoke in Tongues.” Since I use Tongues to pray to God, I thought it would be a good idea to do that in St. Peter’s Basilica. There we found a place where we could kneel in prayer. I suggested that we both pray like we normally do in English. I said that after a few minutes, I would switch to praying in Tongues. There we were, both of us praying in soft voices to God.
How could my friend know that I was praying in tongues and not just faking it in order to impress her? All my friend could recognize was that I was using non-English sounds. My friend could not determine if I were truly praying to God. She chose not to discuss that issue because, as she said, all she wanted to do was to hear it.
All I can do is to hear someone praying in either the vernacular or in Tongues. Because I can hear Tongues does not mean that I have the ability to distinquish between real prayers and fake prayers. Because that judgment belongs to God, no human judgment is needed.
Because it is often difficult to separate prayer Tongues from St. Paul’s list of Holy Spirit gifts
in 1 Corinthians, chapter 12, I would appreciate knowing your reaction to the above explanation of prayer Tongues before I address the issue of Tongues when that does require an interpretator.
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