Speaking in tongues?

[DebChris]

When you do see the whole Catholic community, or prayer group praying in tongues as one there is still order. It will begin quietly, crescendo as more voices are added and then decrescendo.
God is in control as each person yields to the power of the Holy Spirit. There is a beginning, middle and end which is generally followed by profound silence and often prophecy or a scripture passage by a single individual.
I am not sure if anybody as yet has defined prophecy. It is not a foretelling of the future. It is most often a word of encouragement as God speaks through the person.

 

[carmenp1]

So the reality is that a person who claims to speak in tongues cannot prove what they are doing is genuine and anyone listening just has to take it on trust??

Why don’t people who claim to speak in tongues submit themselves to the Church to discern if the gift is real or not?

I am speaking about tongues used in prayer, at home or in private. It is scriptural to use it this way. You speak to God, not to man. The Holy Spirit helps you to pray for the needs you want to bring before God. Again, scriptural. The personal test is, when you use this gift, does it help in the way scripture describes? When I pray in tongues, I am not praying so others can hear me. It is prayer between me and God. From my own experiences, especially during very difficult times when I was in despair. This gift, is what really helped me. I prayed in my understanding and in the Holy Spirit. I am in control of whether I pray in tongues or not.

I know personally, that when I pray in tongues, it is genuine. The proof is that what scripture says it is used for, happens. Did it edify? I could answer, yes! Did the Holy Spirit help me to pray for something, I had no idea how to even start? Yes! If you find yourself answering yes when your own experiences match up to what scripture says about why God has given us this gift, then there is your safety net, right there. Filter everything through The Word of God. It keeps me on the right road.

Carmen

 

[ynotzap]

God did not over-ride my free will, as I always try to be open to the Holy Spirit, A Christian
should desire to be possessed by the Spirit, and when we receive Communion we receive the Trinity when we receive Jesus Christ. I see not conflict with this and Holy
Scripture

this post was meant for carmenp l

 

[grannymh]

So the reality is that a person who claims to speak in tongues cannot prove what they are doing is genuine and anyone listening just has to take it on trust??

The person who **prays in Tongues **is sincerely praying to God. It is the eavesdropper who does not have God’s ability to judge personal prayer. Please read post 80.

Why don’t people who claim to speak in tongues submit themselves to the Church to discern if the gift is real or not?

Because I have often explained the difference between the two Holy Spirit gifts which employ Tongues – would you kindly tell me which gift you are asking about?

 

[DebChris]

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has submitted to the Church. It has the blessing of the popes starting with Pope Paul VI. As mentioned in an earlier post, I did let my parish priest know when I had been “Baptized in the Spirit,” when I began praying in tongues.
In Catholic theology, this is not a new Sacrament. The correct term is actually a release of the Holy Spirit. As Catholics each of us has been given certain gifts by virtue of our Baptism and Confirmation. We already have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. We receive Our Lord each and every time we receive Holy Communion. There is a richness in the Catholic Church that can be found nowhere else.
Some of us are completely unaware of the gifts that we have. They are hidden in the back of closet unopened. Each step along the spiritual journey means one more step in faith, one more “yes” to God.
When I was new to the Charismatic Renewal I heard the story of a Carmelite nun. She asked the question, “Why would I want to pray in tongues?” After all she was already spending many hours in contemplative prayer. She already had a relationship with our Lord. “If it is from you, Lord, why wouldn’t I want it?” The result was that the contemplative state that had taken hours to achieve would now be reached in minutes.
Tongues is only an outward sign. What is more important are the changes that happen in a person’s life after they receive the charism. As St. Paul states, “If I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.” [1 Cor 13:1]

 

[carmenp1]

God did not over-ride my free will, as I always try to be open to the Holy Spirit, A Christian
should desire to be possessed by the Spirit, and when we receive Communion we receive the Trinity when we receive Jesus Christ. I see not conflict with this and Holy
Scripture

this post was meant for carmenp l

Ok. Was just concerned. But you know what happened. So if you are happy then that is good.

 

[ynotzap]

Ok. Was just concerned. But you know what happened. So if you are happy then that is good.

I think it is a very human trait to box the Holy Spirit, to control Him if we can. He moves as He wills. The Bible also talks about “Do not quench the Spirit or grieve the Holy Spirit”
It also speaks of exorcisms " They will cast out demons in My Name" I think many think that this only existed for the Church in it’s beginnings and fail to realize it’s significance for our present time. I also know this for a fact, it’s significance for our day and for all time. Even in Baptism there is an exorcism taking place, not necessarily of diabolical possession, but one of influence. We promise to renounce the works of Satan, and St.Peter said that Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan. What good is discernment if it isn’t to expel or stop the influence of the evil spirit especially on the Christian community. I know this from experience. If the secular world only knew what is really taking place in their lives they would be shocked.

 

[carmenp1]

It also speaks of exorcisms " They will cast out demons in My Name" I think many think that this only existed for the Church in it’s beginnings and fail to realize it’s significance for our present time. I also know this for a fact, it’s significance for our day and for all time. Even in Baptism there is an exorcism taking place, not necessarily of diabolical possession, but one of influence. We promise to renounce the works of Satan, and St.Peter said that Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan. What good is discernment if it isn’t to expel or stop the influence of the evil spirit especially on the Christian community. I know this from experience. If the secular world only knew what is really taking place in their lives they would be shocked.

I agree. I can share 3 instances.

I grew up in a house that had a lot of demonic activity. I know now it was demonic. Not when I was a child. I was about 8 or 9yrs old. I sat up in bed. Room was pitch black. Despite the darkness, I saw a black panther at the foot of my bed. It came towards me, growing larger as it did. It came so close that I was pushed back flat on the bed. My sister told me she had seen the same thing.

I got saved in 1988 in a church that was Pentecostal. They street preached sometimes. I was a new convert and was asked if I would street preach. I was not really thrilled about the idea but I said yes. The minute I started to street preach, I felt as if someone had punched me in the guts. I didn’t see anyone. They asked me how I felt. I said, “As if someone punched me in the guts!”

That night, I lay in bed praying and thanking God for all He had done for me. I felt something rise up from my belly, as if I was going to burst, then I felt something come out of my mouth. I could feel every hair. After this, it was as if a part of who I was, was gone. I felt a liberty and freedom I didn’t have before. I know that what came out of me that night was the black panther that had appeared in my bedroom when I was a child.

I later read a book on Smith Wigglesworth’s. He punched people where the sickness was. How about that! Here is an excerpt I found online:

Many people said they were cured of cancer during Wigglesworth’s ministry. He described cancer as ‘a living evil spirit’, and believed that many diseases were ‘satanic in origin’.[10] His methods often involved hitting, slapping or punching the afflicted part of the body. On a number of occasions his approach to persons suffering from stomach complaints was to punch them in the stomach, sometimes with such force that it propelled them across the room. When challenged on this, his response was “I don’t hit them, I hit the devil”.[11] Responding to criticism over his method of praying for the sick, Wigglesworth stated: “You might think by the way I went about praying for the sick that I was sometimes unloving and rough, but oh, friends, you have no idea what I see behind the sickness and the one who is afflicted. I am not dealing with the person; I am dealing with the satanic forces that are binding the afflicted”. On one occasion Wigglesworth declared to the sick “I’ll only pray for you once, to pray twice is unbelief.” The second night, a man approached the altar to receive prayer again and Wigglesworth, recognizing him, said “Didn’t I pray for you last night? You are full of unbelief, get off this platform!”.[11]

I may have to do another post for the other 2 instances.

Carmen

 

[DebChris]

I agree. I can share 3 instances.

I grew up in a house that had a lot of demonic activity. I know now it was demonic. Not when I was a child. I was about 8 or 9yrs old. I sat up in bed. Room was pitch black. Despite the darkness, I saw a black panther at the foot of my bed. It came towards me, growing larger as it did. It came so close that I was pushed back flat on the bed. My sister told me she had seen the same thing.

I got saved in 1988 in a church that was Pentecostal. They street preached sometimes. I was a new convert and was asked if I would street preach. I was not really thrilled about the idea but I said yes. The minute I started to street preach, I felt as if someone had punched me in the guts. I didn’t see anyone. They asked me how I felt. I said, “As if someone punched me in the guts!”

That night, I lay in bed praying and thanking God for all He had done for me. I felt something rise up from my belly, as if I was going to burst, then I felt something come out of my mouth. I could feel every hair. After this, it was as if a part of who I was, was gone. I felt a liberty and freedom I didn’t have before. I know that what came out of me that night was the black panther that had appeared in my bedroom when I was a child.

I later read a book on Smith Wigglesworth’s. He punched people where the sickness was. How about that! Here is an excerpt I found online:

Many people said they were cured of cancer during Wigglesworth’s ministry. He described cancer as ‘a living evil spirit’, and believed that many diseases were ‘satanic in origin’.[10] His methods often involved hitting, slapping or punching the afflicted part of the body. On a number of occasions his approach to persons suffering from stomach complaints was to punch them in the stomach, sometimes with such force that it propelled them across the room. When challenged on this, his response was “I don’t hit them, I hit the devil”.[11] Responding to criticism over his method of praying for the sick, Wigglesworth stated: “You might think by the way I went about praying for the sick that I was sometimes unloving and rough, but oh, friends, you have no idea what I see behind the sickness and the one who is afflicted. I am not dealing with the person; I am dealing with the satanic forces that are binding the afflicted”. On one occasion Wigglesworth declared to the sick “I’ll only pray for you once, to pray twice is unbelief.” The second night, a man approached the altar to receive prayer again and Wigglesworth, recognizing him, said “Didn’t I pray for you last night? You are full of unbelief, get off this platform!”.[11]

I may have to do another post for the other 2 instances.

Carmen

St. Paul used his training as a Pharisee when he preached about the Lord Jesus, after his Baptism. The Apostles had 3 years of teaching under the direct leadership of our Lord. A new convert to the Catholic Faith would not be asked to street preach. Exorcisms are reserved to the priesthood for a reason, to those priests known to have the special charism to discern spirits and then specially trained in the use of that gift.
There is a danger in questioning a person’s faith if they are not immediately healed, of becoming one of Job’s comforters. Can we remain faithful do God even through sickness and affliction, even when our prayers are not immediately answered? Is God leading us to greater compassion or patience?
In any of the stories we read of healings in Scripture, or stories in which individuals were delivered from demons were any harmed? That doesn’t mean that deliberate and forceful prayer was not used. Tongues can be a powerful tool in discerning between Satan’s voice and that of God. The closer one comes to the Lord, the more the evil one will try to deceive, even mimicking God’s voice. When we pray in tongues, he cannot interfere.
In the gospel of John, we read that the sheep will not heed the voice of a stranger. “I know mine and mine know me.”

 

[phil_at_dayboro]

A Number of years ago , I had my first Christmas alone after separation,was feeling a bit depressed which is understandable, was invited to attend a non Catholic service,
Mabe a few hundred people were gathered , suddenly the entire crowd started speaking in Toungs , I just wanted to run out fast as I could, because they didn’t appear sincere to me,
It seemed all a big show, I was thinking Un polite thoughts about everyone’s mental state ,
In my mind , I can understand that perhaps a few may have this Gift, but not the entire
300 or so , needless to say, I never returned, my friend that invited me asked what I thought about it, I think I would have said politely it wasn’t for me,

 

[DebChris]

A Number of years ago , I had my first Christmas alone after separation,was feeling a bit depressed which is understandable, was invited to attend a non Catholic service,
Mabe a few hundred people were gathered , suddenly the entire crowd started speaking in Toungs , I just wanted to run out fast as I could, because they didn’t appear sincere to me,
It seemed all a big show, I was thinking Un polite thoughts about everyone’s mental state ,
In my mind , I can understand that perhaps a few may have this Gift, but not the entire
300 or so , needless to say, I never returned, my friend that invited me asked what I thought about it, I think I would have said politely it wasn’t for me,

If you read my first post, you will see my concerns when I was invited an Apostolic church. I was actually thinking along the lines of Jim Jones because of the emotionalism that I saw.
Reason should inform faith. I would have to look back through the posts, but it is true that God does not go against any man’s will. When we yield to the Holy Spirit, it needs to be of our own volition, not a matter of trying to “show off” or be better than someone else.
In some groups and churches, a type of spiritual pride can develop among those who do have the gifts versus those who do not. St. Paul asks the questions, “Do all have the gift of tongues? Do all prophesy?..” The charisms are meant for the building up of the Body of Christ.
I worked with a man who belonged to the Assembly of God. The Assembly of God is a denomination that puts great stock in the gift of tongues as an outward sign of a person’s closeness to God. It was very painful for this man who had always been faithful, and yet somehow the gift had eluded him. Was he somehow lacking in faith? The answer of course was no, but it would trouble him that perhaps he was. This is the same danger that comes from an overemphasis on “the health and wealth gossip,” and the idea of once saved always saved instead of looking at salvation as a continuous process. We need to keep growing in trust and faith. Some of us will be given and open our gift and some of us won’t.
You may see 300 Catholics at a FIRE rally or Charismatic Conference spontaneously begin praying together. I described this phenomenon earlier. God is all powerful. Don’t be afraid to stick to around to see what happens afterward. Nobody’s going to notice if you simply observe, if somehow it still all seems strange.

 

[carmenp1]

If you read my first post, you will see my concerns when I was invited an Apostolic church. I was actually thinking along the lines of Jim Jones because of the emotionalism that I saw.
Reason should inform faith. I would have to look back through the posts, but it is true that God does not go against any man’s will. When we yield to the Holy Spirit, it needs to be of our own volition, not a matter of trying to “show off” or be better than someone else.
In some groups and churches, a type of spiritual pride can develop among those who do have the gifts versus those who do not. St. Paul asks the questions, “Do all have the gift of tongues? Do all prophesy?..” The charisms are meant for the building up of the Body of Christ.
I worked with a man who belonged to the Assembly of God. The Assembly of God is a denomination that puts great stock in the gift of tongues as an outward sign of a person’s closeness to God. It was very painful for this man who had always been faithful, and yet somehow the gift had eluded him. Was he somehow lacking in faith? The answer of course was no, but it would trouble him that perhaps he was. This is the same danger that comes from an overemphasis on “the health and wealth gossip,” and the idea of once saved alwgays saved instead of looking at salvation as a continuous process. We need to keep growing in trust and faith. Some of us will be given and open our gift and some of us won’t.
You may see 300 Catholics at a FIRE rally or Charismatic Conference spontaneously begin praying together. I described this phenomenon earlier. God is all powerful. Don’t be afraid to stick to around to see what happens afterward. Nobody’s going to notice if you simply observe, if somehow it still all seems strange.

The gift of tongues is not supposed to be used by the whole church at once. It’s unscriptural

 

[Bruised_Reed]

So the reality is that a person who claims to speak in tongues cannot prove what they are doing is genuine and anyone listening just has to take it on trust??

Why don’t people who claim to speak in tongues submit themselves to the Church to discern if the gift is real or not?

When you say “to the Church” here what do you mean? What would satisfy your doubt? Do you mean investigating miracles are or how those who experience visions or locutions are tested?

 

[ynotzap]

What Grannymh descose” [Romans 8:26-28]

1. Speaking in tongues (praying in the Spirit) is the normal scriptural means of entering into the baptism in the Holy Spirit. *“And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” [Acts 2:4]

   “With men of other tongues and other lips
      I will speak to this people,
     And yet, for all that,
     They will not hear
     Me.”
    Says the Lord.

Scripture defines the boundaries God has placed upon how we use it. Don’t be put off seeing a whole church speak in tongues. They are misusing the gift but the gift is still from God. It’s up to each church, each individual to use it the way God has instructed us.

Carmen

As a Catholic when we are baptized, we understand that we are baptized by water and the Holy Spirit, and we become a child of God, and heir to the Kingdom of Heaven. It was very important to make this distinction clear, because when we speak of the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” in charismatic prayer meetings we mean " a religious experience" that we can identify as coming from God. It may come in many ways, depending on what God wants us to have. To some it may come as a spiritual or physical healing, to others, a deepening of the faith, a confirmation of the faith, an experience tailored to the needs of the individual to others a release of Charismatic gifts. Many people have been baptized and even confirmed, but never experience the release of the Holy Spirit in their lives. I suspect that they never had a real encounter with Jesus Christ. An analogy would be like placing a battery (Baptism) in a car (the person) and never hooking up the wires (Jesus Christ) to start the car (the person) The electricity (the Holy Spirit) through the wires (Jesus Christ) starts the car (the person) This called the release of the Spirit so the encounter with Jesus is needed (especially in real conversion) and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to release those gifts endowed by the Sacrament of Confirmation When people pray in tongues at a charismatic Mass, they are using tongues to worship and praise God. And it’s my experience that God finds this very acceptable. As you stated, I can pray in tongues, or pray in my own language, pray as you can not as you can’t, but pray. I wish I could remember the saint who said “if you can pray better by standing on your head, then stand on your head” (but I would suggest, do it in your own room so as not to distract others who are also praying)

 

[DebChris]

The gift of tongues is not supposed to be used by the whole church at once. It’s unscriptural

What happened in the upper room at Pentecost? That was the nucleus of the Church. What does Scripture say about stifling the Spirit? Is God confined to the written words of a book or did He come to us incarnate?
Reading is not a prerequisite to becoming a Christian. “Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.” In order to fully understand Scripture, a person needs to understand what the author is trying to communicate to us. Sacred Tradition alongside Sacred Scripture form a single deposit of faith that has been entrusted to the Church. Together, “sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the teachings of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.”
St. Paul did say that there should be order in the assembly. He was concerned about party like atmospheres instead of worship services. Imagine going into a room in which everybody is trying to be trying to talk at the same time, and they are all interrupting each other. Everybody is having their own little conversations. This is the the discordance that St. Paul is speaking against. We are used to going to Mass and other liturgical services in which we pray together. Our prayers join as one. This is the type of prayer led by the Holy Spirit that I am describing. There is no disorder in the assembly and it is something that can only be experienced to be understood. In the profound silence that follows, God may choose to speak through an individual either in tongues or in his native language. Notice that I did not say English, as the Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church is not confined to the United States.

 

[DebChris]

As a Catholic when we are baptized, we understand that we are baptized by water and the Holy Spirit, and we become a child of God, and heir to the Kingdom of Heaven. It was very important to make this distinction clear, because when we speak of the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” in charismatic prayer meetings we mean " a religious experience" that we can identify as coming from God. It may come in many ways, depending on what God wants us to have. To some it may come as a spiritual or physical healing, to others, a deepening of the faith, a confirmation of the faith, an experience tailored to the needs of the individual to others a release of Charismatic gifts. Many people have been baptized and even confirmed, but never experience the release of the Holy Spirit in their lives. I suspect that they never had a real encounter with Jesus Christ. An analogy would be like placing a battery (Baptism) in a car (the person) and never hooking up the wires (Jesus Christ) to start the car (the person) The electricity (the Holy Spirit) through the wires (Jesus Christ) starts the car (the person) This called the release of the Spirit so the encounter with Jesus is needed (especially in real conversion) and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to release those gifts endowed by the Sacrament of Confirmation When people pray in tongues at a charismatic Mass, they are using tongues to worship and praise God. And it’s my experience that God finds this very acceptable. As you stated, I can pray in tongues, or pray in my own language, pray as you can not as you can’t, but pray. I wish I could remember the saint who said “if you can pray better by standing on your head, then stand on your head” (but I would suggest, do it in your own room so as not to distract others who are also praying)

Thank you for further explaining what I wrote in an earlier post.
What is important when we come together in assembly is that we do come together to worship and praise God. We come together as a community.
Then there are times when as individuals we go into our own little closets to pray, and that’s where I might choose to stand on my head if I were so inclined.
There have been several skeptics who have posted because of what they viewed as individuals who used their charisms for personal attention. I think it was Pope Benedict XVI who warned against spiritual pride while still calling on Catholics to be open to the gifts the Holy Spirit might have for each of us.
As we have both stated, these gifts have been given to us through the Sacraments of the Church. A television is not going to work unless you plug it into the wall socket.

 

[flower_lady]

As a Catholic when we are baptized, we understand that we are baptized by water and the Holy Spirit, and we become a child of God, and heir to the Kingdom of Heaven. It was very important to make this distinction clear, because when we speak of the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” in charismatic prayer meetings we mean " a religious experience" that we can identify as coming from God. It may come in many ways, depending on what God wants us to have. To some it may come as a spiritual or physical healing, to others, a deepening of the faith, a confirmation of the faith, an experience tailored to the needs of the individual to others a release of Charismatic gifts. Many people have been baptized and even confirmed, but never experience the release of the Holy Spirit in their lives. I suspect that they never had a real encounter with Jesus Christ. An analogy would be like placing a battery (Baptism) in a car (the person) and never hooking up the wires (Jesus Christ) to start the car (the person) The electricity (the Holy Spirit) through the wires (Jesus Christ) starts the car (the person) This called the release of the Spirit so the encounter with Jesus is needed (especially in real conversion) and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to release those gifts endowed by the Sacrament of Confirmation When people pray in tongues at a charismatic Mass, they are using tongues to worship and praise God. And it’s my experience that God finds this very acceptable. As you stated, I can pray in tongues, or pray in my own language, pray as you can not as you can’t, but pray. I wish I could remember the saint who said “if you can pray better by standing on your head, then stand on your head” (but I would suggest, do it in your own room so as not to distract others who are also praying)

 

[carmenp1]

What happened in the upper room at Pentecost? That was the nucleus of the Church. What does Scripture say about stifling the Spirit? Is God confined to the written words of a book or did He come to us incarnate?
Reading is not a prerequisite to becoming a Christian. “Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.” In order to fully understand Scripture, a person needs to understand what the author is trying to communicate to us. Sacred Tradition alongside Sacred Scripture form a single deposit of faith that has been entrusted to the Church. Together, “sacred tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the teachings of the Church, in accord with God’s most wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and all together and each in its own way under the action of the one Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.”
St. Paul did say that there should be order in the assembly. He was concerned about party like atmospheres instead of worship services. Imagine going into a room in which everybody is trying to be trying to talk at the same time, and they are all interrupting each other. Everybody is having their own little conversations. This is the the discordance that St. Paul is speaking against. We are used to going to Mass and other liturgical services in which we pray together. Our pmrayers join as one. This is the type of prayer led by the Holy Spirit that I am describing. There is no disorder in the assembly and it is something that can only be experienced to be understood. In the profound silence that follows, God may choose to speak through an individual either in tongues or in his native language. Notice that I did not say English, as the Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church is not confined to the United States.

I’m on the road. Can’t give you the bible reference but I am referring to the scripture where Paul says if all speak in tongues if an unbeliever comes in will he not think you are all mad? Something like that. If you want to go to the trouble, you can find the post I put on this thread which showed all the scriptures that gave us God’s boundaries and proper use of this gift.

I was saved in a Pentecostal church. That’s what we did too. The whole church praised God in tongues. For me, it was a great experience. But for people who were invited or strolled in off the street, it would have been very weird. I thought it was weird at first, especially when I still didn’t have the gift myself.

If God explicitly says in scripture don’t do it like that. What should we do? Do it because we can circumvent scripture, to take us around the merry go round until we arrive at OUR point of view?

I found as much scripture on this as possible to understand what and why God was saying to us about speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit.

Quenching the spirit is a long bow to draw for the practice of the whole church coming together and all speaking in tongues. There are other scriptures that say it is better to prophesy and interpret so the whole church is edified. Who is edified doing it as a whole church? We are speaking to God when we use this gift. We are edified. The church gathers for many reasons. For edification thru the preaching. Thru fellowship. The church is a refuge. It is also one of the instruments God uses to bring people He died for to salvation.
Evangelism is the mandate given to the Church by God. We need to have that as our top priority. Not quarreling and worried about something that is only going to help someone come to Christ if it is used the way God has defined it’s proper use.

The issue is to seek out the right answer to that question. Everything, and every gift God gives His children is for a higher purpose. God’s heart is for the lost, for souls to be saved.

Carmen

 

[fisherman_carl]

When you say “to the Church” here what do you mean? What would satisfy your doubt? Do you mean investigating miracles are or how those who experience visions or locutions are tested?

Exactly it sounds like he wants some kind of inquisition done on anyone who claims to speak in tongues. I don’t think the Church would require that of any person. And, how are they not already submitting to the Church right now?

Like I said before it is a matter of faith. It’s not something that can be proven. Thus, the Church has already spoken on the issue and has not ruled against it. If anything it is supported by the Church, by people like Pope John Paul II. There is nothing in the catechism warning us against speaking in tongues.

For the sake of argument, even if it were not always authentic the person doing it believes it is and is acting in good faith praising and worshiping God through prayer. Although, there must be the authentic as Scripture mentions it.

I know some people who pray in tongues. They are good spirit filled people who love the Lord and follow him. They often go and pray over people who are sick. One time there was a guy who had cancer of the throat and he was a smoker and the doctor told him he had to quit. But, he couldn’t. He was desperate. So, they prayed over him. After that he never touched a cigarette again. That is a miracle in and of itself. But, not only that when he went back to the doctor the doctor told him all his cancer was gone. Praise God!

That story was not something proving the merit of tongues of course. I wasn’t there so I don’t even know what they prayed. But, I just mention it because these people do pray in tongues. It obviously doesn’t hurt their relationship with God. If anything it adds to it.

 

[DebChris]

I’m on the road. Can’t give you the bible reference but I am referring to the scripture where Paul says if all speak in tongues if an unbeliever comes in will he not think you are all mad? Something like that. If you want to go to the trouble, you can find the post I put on this thread which showed all the scriptures that gave us God’s boundaries and proper use of this gift.

I was saved in a Pentecostal church. That’s what we did too. The whole church praised God in tongues. For me, it was a great experience. But for people who were invited or strolled in off the street, it would have been very weird. I thought it was weird at first, especially when I still didn’t have the gift myself.

If God explicitly says in scripture don’t do it like that. What should we do? Do it because we can circumvent scripture, to take us around the merry go round until we arrive at OUR point of view?

I found as much scripture on this as possible to understand what and why God was saying to us about speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit.

Quenching the spirit is a long bow to draw for the practice of the whole church coming together and all speaking in tongues. There are other scriptures that say it is better to prophesy and interpret so the whole church is edified. Who is edified doing it as a whole church? We are speaking to God when we use this gift. We are edified. The church gathers for many reasons. For edification thru the preaching. Thru fellowship. The church is a refuge. It is also one of the instruments God uses to bring people He died for to salvation.
Evangelism is the mandate given to the Church by God. We need to have that as our top priority. Not quarreling and worried about something that is only going to help someone come to Christ if it is used the way God has defined it’s proper use.

The issue is to seek out the right answer to that question. Everything, and every gift God gives His children is for a higher purpose. God’s heart is for the lost, for souls to be saved.

Carmen

What I am asking of you is not to get too stuck in Scripture. Scripture comes from Tradition. If you remember the Apostles were gathered at Pentecost when they were filled with the Holy Spirit. Many in the crowd actually thought that they were drunk. They also asked how it was possible that men from Galilee could speak to them in their own languages. Pentecost is the beginning of the Church.
I have been to Pentecostal churches and I know about the great emphasis placed on tongues as an outward sign of being saved. As posted earlier I know the history of the development of the Pentecostal churches. Unlike the mainline churches that rejected the gift following the revivals of the late nineteenth and early 20th centuries, the Catholic Church has embraced those who have experienced this same charism.
The Catholic Charismatic Renewal for its part has remained submissive to the Church as the early converts remained submissive to the teaching of the Apostles. Tradition is the teaching of Christ as handed down through the Apostles intact through time. It is protected by the power of the Holy Spirit and has been given to the teaching authority of the Church. All three work together, not one separately so that we don’t circumvent or misuse scripture for our own purposes. Scripture is read in whole, not part.
There are many ways to evangelize. One of the best ways is with our lives. As St. Francis is credited with saying, “Preach always and if necessary, use words.”
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him and without him nothing came to be.
We can agree that the gift of tongues is exactly that, a gift of the Holy Spirit. What I have described is a further working of the Holy Spirit during prayer services. We all long for God’s Presence. What I have described is a taste of His presence, which is why it can only be experienced. The Church is worshiping as one.
The purpose of the words in Scripture is to bring us to the Word who is God.