Speaking in Tongues

[Keith_Strohm]

*]***Discerning the charisms of the community makes it possible to move our ministries from being “vacuum-driven” to being “charism-driven”. ***Our communities are filled with organizational and pastoral “needs” that we usually try to meet by recruiting anyone who shows any interest - or who, perhaps, is just unable to say “no”. Because we seldom look first at the gifts and call of individuals, our communities often contain generous and energetic people who have been burned-out or even traumatized trying to fill “vacuums” for which they were ill-equipped. Discerning the gifts of individuals helps avoid these problems. When people become aware of their own (and each other’s) charisms, our communities can begin to be “charism-driven”.
*]***Recognizing the charisms of the community makes it much easier to “recruit” volunteers. ***People are much more likely to say “yes”, to be effective, and to find the experience satisfying and spiritually nourishing, when approached to work in an area of their giftedness.
*]***Recognizing the charisms of all fosters co-responsibility between the clergy and the laity in the Church’s mission to the world. ***It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that the clergy and the laity are co-responsible, responsible together, for presenting Christ to the world. The local parish is the most natural, most accessible place for the laity and clergy to acknowledge and support one another in their mutual call. The charisms and call of lay Catholics are their primary contribution to this collaboration.
In Christ,

Keith

 

[Keith_Strohm]

Are all baptized Christians given charisms?
Yes, according to both the New Testament (Ephesians 4) and the teaching of the Catholic Church (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 951). All Christians are given one or more “long-term” or permanent charisms, empowered ways in which God uses us over and over again throughout life. “Long-term” charisms are the kind of spiritual gift that can be discerned through the Spiritual Gifts Discernment Program, can be deliberately developed, and should be taken into account when we try to discern our vocation(s) in life.

What difference can the discernment of their charisms make for individual Catholics?

• Discerning their charisms gives many people a new sense of personal purpose and direction as a lay Christian. Many lay Catholics do not understood that they have an active part to play in the Church’s mission and are excited to discover that God is calling them to and equipping them for a unique work of love in the world.
• Discerning and exercising one’s charisms can be a wonderful catalyst of spiritual growth. Few things nurture faith in God’s loving presence like seeing God’s provision and goodness reach others through the charisms of an ordinary person like you or me. The spiritual disciplines necessary to mature in the use of a charism change us and help transform us into more Christ-like people.
• Understanding our charisms can free us from the need to compare ourselves with others and from judging others because they are different from us. Participants regularly comment about how healing an experience it is to discern their gifts. Those who judged themselves for not measuring up to someone else’s standard are freed by recognizing that their giftedness and calling may be different. Those who judged other Christians for having different priorities are able to relax and recognize the validity of the many calls within the larger Body of Christ.
• Every charism represents a call from God. Becoming clear about the charisms that you have been given can greatly clarify decision-making. A lot of energy is released for service as individuals begin to acknowledge where they are not gifted and begin to concentrate on the areas where they are called and gifted.
• Understanding your charisms helps prevent unnecessary failure and burn-out. Charisms of the Holy Spirit enable us to be exceptionally effective for the Kingdom of God. It is unusually energizing and fulfilling to exercise a charism and we are much less likely to burn out if working in the arena of our giftedness.
• The discernment of charisms can help individuals understand and name what they are already experiencing. After interviewing hundreds of average Catholics, we have discovered that many lay Catholics are having remarkable experiences of God, which they don’t understand, can’t put into perspective, and don’t feel that they can talk about with anyone else. Gifts discernment enables lay Catholics to begin to see that some of these experiences may be signs of a charism and helps them name and begin to responsibly exercise these gifts for the sake of others.
  How does helping individuals discern their charisms affect the larger Christian community?
• The discernment process helps individuals cease to be anonymous to the leadership of the community and to each other. In our large Catholic parishes and institutions, it’s easy for individuals to come and go without being noticed and to believe that they have nothing to contribute. The personal interview is a most critical part of the discernment process because it gives individuals the opportunity to share their experience of being used by God with the leadership of the community. The small groups enable Catholics to talk to each other about something that is seldom named in our communities: how does God use us to bless others?

CONT NEXT POST

 

[Keith_Strohm]

*]***The discernment of their gifts draws people from the periphery of the community to the center. ***Some of our most gifted people are sitting, unrecognized, in the back of the church. Many lay Catholics emerge from the gifts discernment process with a much stronger sense that they have something important to give to the larger Christian community and the world. Catholics who sat quietly on the sidelines start taking new risks and others emerge as leaders of new initiatives.

*]***Discerning the charisms of the community makes it possible to move our ministries from being “vacuum-driven” to being “charism-driven”. ***Our communities are filled with organizational and pastoral “needs” that we usually try to meet by recruiting anyone who shows any interest - or who, perhaps, is just unable to say “no”. Because we seldom look first at the gifts and call of individuals, our communities often contain generous and energetic people who have been burned-out or even traumatized trying to fill “vacuums” for which they were ill-equipped. Discerning the gifts of individuals helps avoid these problems. When people become aware of their own (and each other’s) charisms, our communities can begin to be “charism-driven”.
*]***Recognizing the charisms of the community makes it much easier to “recruit” volunteers. ***People are much more likely to say “yes”, to be effective, and to find the experience satisfying and spiritually nourishing, when approached to work in an area of their giftedness.
*]***Recognizing the charisms of all fosters co-responsibility between the clergy and the laity in the Church’s mission to the world. ***It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that the clergy and the laity are co-responsible, responsible together, for presenting Christ to the world. The local parish is the most natural, most accessible place for the laity and clergy to acknowledge and support one another in their mutual call. The charisms and call of lay Catholics are their primary contribution to this collaboration.
In Christ,

Keith

 

[Michael_Welter]

And please understand, I don’t doubt the validity or the use of the various charisms at all, in their proper context What I do doubt is the validity of when people say that they requested and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and became spirit filled. It seems as if what they are saying is that you are not complete as a Christian unless you do that. And that certainly sounds elitist and is contrary to the teachings of the Church.

I must confess that, in my younger years, I was probably guilty of making such statements. Such was the teaching of very well meaning, but perhaps ignorant, people in the charismatic renewal. Fortunately, most leaders in the charismatic renewal today have matured beyond such language. We understand that we receive the Holy Spirit in Baptism, and an awakening of the Spirit within us in Confirmation.

 

[DWPC]

CONT NEXT POST

Please don’t bother. You’re only making my point. The issue is specifically the Church’s view (more accurately, the lack of one) on charismatic glossolalia. Not the definition of “charism”. Not St Paul’s gift of tongues. Not the Corinthians. Please don’t obfuscate the subject. The issue is the back-door infusion of Pentecostal fundamentalism into Catholicism by activist charismatics in 2006.

Charismatics want to use the lack of clear Church teaching on glossolalia as de facto approval. There is no definitive view because it simply has not been a serious Catholic issue in modern times. I want explicit Vatican-level clarification regarding Catholics and inintelligible, nonrepeatable glossolalia as personal manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Michael_Welter]

I want explicit Vatican-level clarification regarding Catholics and inintelligible, nonrepeatable glossolalia as personal manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

I would like that, as well. However, I can’t help but wonder, since the charismatic movement began some 40 years ago in the Catholic Church, is has touched the lives of hundreds of thousands of catholics worldwide. If praying in tongues was so wrong, wouldn’t the Church have said so by now? The Church is much faster than that when it comes to putting down heresies.

 

[palmas85]

To whom would I go? God draws mankind to Himself through His Church. So, if the Church were to prohibit the use of tongues, I would be obedient.

I was just wondering. Your statement was quite worrisome and left me with the perhaps unwarranted opinion that without the Charismatic gifts you would not be Catholic at all. I’m glad such is not the case at all. I can breathe easier now.

 

[Michael_Welter]

I can breathe easier now.

That’s great news. I wouldn’t want to upset, especially this close to Christmas.

 

[palmas85]

I would like that, as well. However, I can’t help but wonder, since the charismatic movement began some 40 years ago in the Catholic Church, is has touched the lives of hundreds of thousands of catholics worldwide. If praying in tongues was so wrong, wouldn’t the Church have said so by now? The Church is much faster than that when it comes to putting down heresies.

Not necessarily. The Arian heresy lasted a LOT longer than the 40 or so years that the Charismatic movement has been around, and at its height infected the majority of the Church at that time, including Popes… Modernism is still around even though we choose to ignore the more obvious manifestations of it and lest we forget the entire Protetstant experience came about due to heresy. Yet, when was the last time you heard the Protestants referred to as heretics? Does anyone still believe that they are? Yet a lot of if not most of what they believe and teach is in direct conflict with Catholic teaching.

No the Church has a way of ignoring things that it wants to for whatever reason. I firmly believe that the Charismatic Renewal Movement is one of those. The Church says, well, as long as they adhere to some sort of Catholicism it is better to keep them than to get rid of them. Besides that it is a modern phenomena and in the eyes of many modern thinkers if its new its goodand besides that it shows ecumenical feeling.

 

[gallo]

We have a charismatic group at our parish and my wife goes to it. I’ve been a few times, but always leave confused and stressed out.
Our priest, who leads it, taught a series on praying and speaking in tounges. I love prayer and want more of it, but when I hear tounges prayed or spoken “red flags” go up all over the place. Maybe it’s just because I don’t understand it, but none the less, they are there.
I see so much emphasis placed on it an so many will actually go so far as to have arguments over it. (More caution.), however, I RARELY hear of anyone placing just as much or even close to as much emphasis on…to put it simply…Love and the result it brings. I don’t hear anyone stand up and say how we are to feed the hungry and cloth the naked. I don’t know about what anyone else studies in the teachings of Jesus, but He clearly states that we are judged according to what we have or have not done to Him in our neighbor. So I have a feeling that if I don’t tell others about Him, speak encouragement to others, and “proclaim fredom to the captives” it won’t matter if my heart uttered a toungue.
"If I speak in human and angelic toungues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal (1 Corinthians 13:1)

Just to note: No aggression went into this and I don’t mean offence to anyone.

 

[Michael_Welter]

Not necessarily. The Arian heresy lasted a LOT longer than the 40 or so years that the Charismatic movement has been around, and at its height infected the majority of the Church at that time, including Popes… Modernism is still around even though we choose to ignore the more obvious manifestations of it and lest we forget the entire Protetstant experience came about due to heresy. Yet, when was the last time you heard the Protestants referred to as heretics? Does anyone still believe that they are? Yet a lot of if not most of what they believe and teach is in direct conflict with Catholic teaching.

The Arian heresy happened at a time when communication was much slower than today, as was travel. It could take 50 years just to compile the whole story. More recently, I have heard the Pope speak out against some heresies almost immediately. Take the recent action against Call to Action. BTW, I still refer to many Protestant teachings as heresy. Like you, I wish that the Church was more verbal on that.

No the Church has a way of ignoring things that it wants to for whatever reason. I firmly believe that the Charismatic Renewal Movement is one of those. The Church says, well, as long as they adhere to some sort of Catholicism it is better to keep them than to get rid of them. Besides that it is a modern phenomena and in the eyes of many modern thinkers if its new its goodand besides that it shows ecumenical feeling.

As a long standing member of the charismatic renewal, I can asure you that I accept the teachings of the Church 100%, and without question, even if I don’t understand. After all, Jesus promised to protect the Church from error when He founded her.

 

[palmas85]

The Arian heresy happened at a time when communication was much slower than today, as was travel. It could take 50 years just to compile the whole story. More recently, I have heard the Pope speak out against some heresies almost immediately. Take the recent action against Call to Action. BTW, I still refer to many Protestant teachings as heresy. Like you, I wish that the Church was more verbal on that.

As a long standing member of the charismatic renewal, I can asure you that I accept the teachings of the Church 100%, and without question, even if I don’t understand. After all, Jesus promised to protect the Church from error when He founded her.

And as you can see, the Charismatic Movement has not taken over the whole Church, nor is it accepted by many as even being valid, but remains the domain of a relative few. I think that by now if it was the way of the New Church it would be much more widespread than it currently is

So true, Christ does indeed protect the Church from error .

 

[DWPC]

I would like that, as well. However, I can’t help but wonder, since the charismatic movement began some 40 years ago in the Catholic Church, is has touched the lives of hundreds of thousands of catholics worldwide. If praying in tongues was so wrong, wouldn’t the Church have said so by now? The Church is much faster than that when it comes to putting down heresies.

Though it may have begun 40 forty years ago, it is only now reaching critical mass, with charismatic groups now common in most parishes.

Please don’t misunderstand. I don’t believe praying “in tongues” is intrinsically wrong or heretical. I do believe it’s in conflict with 1000 years of Catholic emphasis on humility, discipline, and obedience. I’m also very suspicious of charismatics’ insistance that its the Holy Spirit *personally *touching them vs. a product of very intense prayer. It seems to focus on the “me” rather than on God, and in the extreme to provide a potential for showing-off and competing. I don’t say this to be contentious.

 

[Michael_Welter]

I do believe it’s in conflict with 1000 years of Catholic emphasis on humility, discipline, and obedience. I’m also very suspicious of charismatics’ insistance that its the Holy Spirit *personally *touching them vs. a product of very intense prayer. It seems to focus on the “me” rather than on God, and in the extreme to provide a potential for showing-off and competing. I don’t say this to be contentious.

Quite the contrary. A person using the gift of tongues is admitting that they are weak and unable to praise God as He truly deserves. We turn oursleves over to God completely, and allow Him to speak through us. In no way does this make me better than anyone else. In fact, it is most likely due to my deep sinfulness that I am unable to praise God as He deserves.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quite the contrary. A person using the gift of tongues is admitting that they are weak and unable to praise God as He truly deserves. We turn oursleves over to God completely, and allow Him to speak through us. In no way does this make me better than anyone else. In fact, it is most likely due to my deep sinfulness that I am unable to praise God as He deserves.

---

You know Michael Welter—even in what you wrote above—there is an implication that those of us who do not believe in the tongue movement are not praising God the way He truly deserves. We are not giving ourselves over to God–so therefore he does not speak through us.

 

[Keith_Strohm]

Please don’t bother. You’re only making my point. The issue is specifically the Church’s view (more accurately, the lack of one) on charismatic glossolalia. Not the definition of “charism”. Not St Paul’s gift of tongues. Not the Corinthians. Please don’t obfuscate the subject. The issue is the back-door infusion of Pentecostal fundamentalism into Catholicism by activist charismatics in 2006.

Wow, I certainly never intended for you to get your briefs in a bunch. Part of your post was regarding the vague definition of charism, and I was attempting to bring some clarity to the discussion.

There was no deliberate attempt to obfuscate anything.

In fact, I have no vested interest in tongues whatsoever. I’m not a member of the charismatic movement and I don’t pray in tongues.

Charismatics want to use the lack of clear Church teaching on glossolalia as de facto approval. There is no definitive view because it simply has not been a serious Catholic issue in modern times. I want explicit Vatican-level clarification regarding Catholics and inintelligible, nonrepeatable glossolalia as personal manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

Okay . . .but why are you using a lack of clear Vatican teaching on glossolalia as a presumed negative? If there is no definitive view, then a catholic is free to either believe in or not believe in the gift of tongues. And as much as you say the issue has nothing to do with the definition of charisms, Paul’s gift of tongues, or the Corinthians’ gift of tongues, on some level it must have something to do with them–as you have made a private judgement declaring that these manifestations have nothing to do with those things (you have used them as a basis on which to make your judgement).

Can I also ask why you seem to be such a spirited opponent of tongues and the Charismatic Movement? Do you also hold a similar opinion on other charisms–such as healing, encouragement, teaching, or prophecy?

Keith

 

[DWPC]

We turn oursleves over to God completely, and allow Him to speak through us. In no way does this make me better than anyone else. In fact, it is most likely due to my deep sinfulness that I am unable to praise God as He deserves.

I can accept how some people may be moved to emotional outburst in intense devotion. I can accept the position that the “tongues” may be a form of ecstatic prayer. But eventually, the debate always comes back to this claim by charismatics of miraculous influence. That “tongues” is God directly acting through them.

To what end does God “speak through” you? To help the poor? To comfort the suffering? To promote justice for the weak? Did Christ pray to His Father in “tongues”? Didn’t He give us the Lord’s Prayer? Though God gave us the profoundly unique gifts of intellect and language, He “moves” us to make unintelligible noises at Him? If He touches us through such direct means, why bother with the Mass and Holy Eucharist?

To me, the charismatic argument boils down to God simply using us like wind-up dolls to praise Himself. I view the charismatic focus on praise as an indirect nod to the Protestant “sola scriptura”. I was taught that we praise God through love in our actions towards others.

Nothing personal, MW, I realize you hold a strong position.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

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[DWPC]

why are you using a lack of clear Vatican teaching on glossolalia as a presumed negative? If there is no definitive view, then a catholic is free to either believe in or not believe in the gift of tongues. Keith

The Vatican has no authoritative views estbalished for UFOs, crop circles, or the Sedona Vortexes. That does not mean they can be unilaterally assimilated into Catholic practice because some folks find merit in them.

And as much as you say the issue has nothing to do with the definition of charisms, Paul’s gift of tongues, or the Corinthians’ gift of tongues, on some level it must have something to do with them–as you have made a private judgement declaring that these manifestations have nothing to do with those things (you have used them as a basis on which to make your judgement).

Nonsense. The thread is about “tongues” in the Anglo-American charismatic movement. That the Corinthians of Paul’s time did or didn’t overdo it has nothing to with charismatics folks in the US in 2006 claiming God is speaking through them on a weekly basis.

Can I also ask why you seem to be such a spirited opponent of tongues and the Charismatic Movement? Do you also hold a similar opinion on other charisms–such as healing, encouragement, teaching, or prophecy?

The Church requires positive evidence and authoritative evaluation of spiritual manifestations and miraculous occurances. If people in significant numbers are claiming that God is directly causing them to exhibit glossolalia, its not different than any other spiritual manifestation, and it is not unreasonable to expect the Church to formally investigate and judge the claim.

As for other “charisms”, if someone shows up at Sunday Mass and starts making prophecies or claims to be a miraculous healer, I’ll be on his case too.

Frankly, I think the charismatic movement is a huge step backwards for the Church. What began some years ago as in the desire for some to exhibit more enthusiam in their devotion has developed into a ideologic movement within the Church drawing much of its guidance from Protestant Fundamentalism. Couple this with the wide-spread liturgical break-downs and fuzzy theology, and we have a recipe for disaster in the American Church.

 

[Keith_Strohm]

I can accept how some people may be moved to emotional outburst in intense devotion. I can accept the position that the “tongues” may be a form of ecstatic prayer. But eventually, the debate always comes back to this claim by charismatics of miraculous influence. That “tongues” is God directly acting through them.

To what end does God “speak through” you? To help the poor? To comfort the suffering? To promote justice for the weak? Did Christ pray to His Father in “tongues”? Didn’t He give us the Lord’s Prayer? Though God gave us the profoundly unique gifts of intellect and language, He “moves” us to make unintelligible noises at Him? If He touches us through such direct means, why bother with the Mass and Holy Eucharist?

To me, the charismatic argument boils down to God simply using us like wind-up dolls to praise Himself. I view the charismatic focus on praise as an indirect nod to the Protestant “sola scriptura”. I was taught that we praise God through love in our actions towards others.

I understand your reservation about tongues–I really do. I’m not a member of the Charismatic Movement and I don’t pray in tongues at all.

Regarding the concept that God uses us as wind up dolls to praise Himself, do you believe that God can speak through us with the gift of prophecy or encouragement? That he uses us as His hands and feet, and that He “acts” through our words and actions? If so, then why wouldn’t tongues be a real manifestation?

Specifically in regards to tongues, written Tradition does indicate that the Spirit uses us as a means of intercession.

In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings.
And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will. (Romans 8: 26-27)

Paul speaks about two kinds of tongues in scripture. One is intended for the assembly–a message that requires interpretation. And the other is a type of intercession for others.

Tongues is useful for when we do not know what to pray for–for the Holy Spirit “prays through us,” Yes, we have a will and intellect, but the existence of the gift of tongues doesn’t abrogate those gifts, nor does it work in contrast to our will and intellect. The person with the gift of tongues yields to the working of the Spirit, who intercedes “through the pray-er” for the sake of other people.

The scripture also speak of the unintelligibility of such prayer:

For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit. On the other hand, one who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, encouragement, and solace. (1Cor 14:2-3)

These “mysteries in spirit” are intended for the ears of God the Father, who earnestly desires that we would pray for one another. This is the same spirit who speaks what He hears from the Father and teaches us in the depths of our hearts.

Utilizing tongues to praise God simply allows the Holy Spirit to direct our prayer and praise. It isn’t a necessary gift (in fact, St. Paul calls it the least of the gifts) for salvation, nor does the existence of the gift mean that someone is a better Christian or more Holy.

The Spirit distributes all of the gifts to the Body of Christ and though they are different, it is the same Lord. Each of us has equal dignity regardless of the gifts that we receive.

Keith