Speaking of Modesty - Veils/Headcoverings

[Kensho]

I look dreadful in shirt dresses and buttondowns. They make me look like a football player.

The dark dresses make me feel pretty awful, I must admit. They were given to me by my mother and are in colors that she chooses and I don’t – one is navy blue and one is maroon. I’d like to dress simply for church in something that is all one color or has a subtle pattern as opposed to a splashy floral print or big polka dots, but I’d like a nice color. Even basic black is better than maroon, in my opinion.

Not that I have anything against splashy prints, by the way, I just thought it would be more appropriate to wear something “quiet” to church.

 

[pollynova]

Technically, they’re biblical, (then again, so is Mary’s robe, that doesn’t mean it’s the definitive description of modest dress) but are they only traditional/cultural?

Mary’s robe is biblical? I can’t find any descriptions about the clothes Mary wore in the bible.

 

[SusanneT]

See! That does change everything, you’re absolutely right!
See here’s an outfit I wore to church, I don’t feel like I look Amish, or like a chemo patient (imho)… Oh and credited to Cammie for her awesome snood I adore

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/Jendara/100_3091.jpg

Peace,
~ PetiteFoi

Very pretty outfit - and aren’t you slim !

Personally I don’t see any conflict between dressing modestly (covered), looking feminine and being modest (not standing out too much).

As everyday & special occasion clothes I wear skirts & dresses exclusively - shoulders covered and all at least knee length - but all normal mainstream clothes and it goes almost totally in-noticed.

Head covering are different as they are mostly a religious statement (especially the nicer ones in my view) - I don’t wear them partly because I would stand out and I don’t want to. But I have visited counties where it is normal for women to cover. I did and I enjoyed doing it.

 

[DarkLight]

Maybe I missed something, but what’s wrong with denim skirts and ruffled blouses? Those are such broad descriptors that two women could be wearing denim skirts and ruffled blouses and have completely different styles, with one looking dowdy and the other looking fashionable.

I gather that these are being held up as an example of “frumpy” clothing, which surprises me because I thought the Frumpy Modest uniform was a long, loose denim jumper over a turtleneck. And in many places, a woman wearing such a uniform wouldn’t stand out at all, so while we may not appreciate her clothing choice from an aesthetic standpoint, it wouldn’t make sense to say that she was being “immodest” by looking different.

To those who are saying that you can buy a shrug, etc. at the thrift store just as easily as the denim skirt combo: That depends on where you live. Where I live, I’m lucky if I can find something that isn’t a polyester sack. And some of us are getting a little too long in the tooth to wear shrugs and maxis credibly anyway.

I suspect what the “frumpy” uniform is also depends on where you are. I know where I grew up the baggy button-down denim skirt and high-neck blouse buttoned all the way to the neck was the common ultra-modesty outfit. It very much stood out (and I had to wear it often enough to know!). I’m a bit sensitive to this issue because I was definitely “shown off” as a teenager for how modest we were - not fun when

But, meh, examples are examples. My point is that you can typically find something that covers without standing out too much and drawing attention to yourself. Same thing with the head-coverings - it’s worth considering options that stand out less rather than more.

I take it to be under the same line as fasting. We are instructed not to advertise when we keep our fasts. Same thing with modesty - it is better to follow our own values and consciences in a way that does not advertise what we’re doing.

I do have to say, PetiteFoi must not be anywhere near where I live. Where I am, that outfit would get you a constant string of questions along the lines of “how on EARTH do you stay warm in that thing?”

 

[Kensho]

I’ve gotten into discussions about veils on traditional Catholic forums, and it seems as though the focus always turns to the prettiness of the veils. I think if women are caught up in the beauty of these big, elaborate, fancy mantillas with gold thread and pictures of Our Lady of Guadalupe woven in, and how beautiful they look in them, and how nice everybody says they look wearing them, then the point of headcovering is lost. In countries where everyone wears them, then they would just blend in and be fine.

I want a headcovering that doesn’t scream “religous headcovering!” and looks nice, but isn’t so flashy and beautiful that either everyone would be looking at it or I would be thinking about my glorious mantilla all through Mass.

I do like the OP’s snood, but money is so tight right now I will have to see if I can find a free pattern and make my own from cloth I already have.

 

[thewanderer]

Please, share photos and/or websites where we can find what you consider to be a form of headcovering that does not stand out as much. No matter what form of headcovering you wear - even hats - you will stand out if you are the only one wearing a headcovering.

There isn’t any one single set thing. If ther is a way to dress modestly etc that draws less attention to oneself then it might end up being more modest to dress that way, thats all. Thats not saying that you’re a bad person if you don’t conform etc etc, its just something to think about.

That outfit is typical of the outfits women who dress modestly around here wear. No denim. No looseness or ruffles (but I do love the lace!). Just simple styles with simple lines and simple, sturdy fabrics.

And I never said or suggested otherwise.

 

[Catholic_Wife]

I look dreadful in shirt dresses and buttondowns. They make me look like a football player.

The dark dresses make me feel pretty awful, I must admit. They were given to me by my mother and are in colors that she chooses and I don’t – one is navy blue and one is maroon. I’d like to dress simply for church in something that is all one color or has a subtle pattern as opposed to a splashy floral print or big polka dots, but I’d like a nice color. Even basic black is better than maroon, in my opinion.

Not that I have anything against splashy prints, by the way, I just thought it would be more appropriate to wear something “quiet” to church.
I have broad shoulders, so I understand about the shirt dresses. Most women don’t have that problem (lucky gals!). As for the splashy print skirts, you can find skirts like then in solid colors and pair them with simple tops without buttons.

Would you consider wearing something like this? Or this, which you could wear a tank under to keep it more modest? When I didn’t have a lot of money, I wore a dress like this (but below the knee), with a sweater to cover my shoulders and arms, every single week, and accessorized with different scarves and sweaters (so I could play up the color or tone it down as my mood changed). You could also try to find a wrap dress, which flatters just about every figure and can still be modest depending on its length and shoulder/arm coverage.

 

[Catholic_Wife]

I want a headcovering that doesn’t scream “religous headcovering!” and looks nice, but isn’t so flashy and beautiful that either everyone would be looking at it or I would be thinking about my glorious mantilla all through Mass.

I love this look! It reminds me of my grandmother. A friend of mine covers like this, with a long scarf. It’s beautiful! You can go as flashy as you want, or you can use a solid color to play it down.

I just wish either of these looked ‘appropriate’ with scrubs, since I go straight to Mass from work most Sundays.

 

[Kensho]

Oh, Catholic_Wife, I love that beautiful vintage headscarf look you posted! Would it work with a silk scarf? I’ve tried tying my silk scarves like broad headbands, but they always slip off and I hate the way they look when anchored with bobby pins. Silk tends to be so slippery, you know.

I used to buy lovely cotton scarves from an online Israeli shop called Tzniut. I wonder if they’re still around? They had scarves that would look all right with scrubs. I gave up on mine, personally, because I utterly lack the talent to tie them properly.

The first two outfits you posted look a little too form-fitting for me, although the basic look would probably work. I do love wrap dresses, but when I’ve had wrap dresses and blouses in the past, I had a hard time getting them to stay fastened. I’m sure it helps if you have a tiny waist you can loop the ties around twice.

 

[gmarie21]

Oh, Catholic_Wife, I love that beautiful vintage headscarf look you posted! Would it work with a silk scarf? I’ve tried tying my silk scarves like broad headbands, but they always slip off and I hate the way they look when anchored with bobby pins. Silk tends to be so slippery, you know.

I used to buy lovely cotton scarves from an online Israeli shop called Tzniut. I wonder if they’re still around? They had scarves that would look all right with scrubs. I gave up on mine, personally, because I utterly lack the talent to tie them properly.

The first two outfits you posted look a little too form-fitting for me, although the basic look would probably work. I do love wrap dresses, but when I’ve had wrap dresses and blouses in the past, I had a hard time getting them to stay fastened. I’m sure it helps if you have a tiny waist you can loop the ties around twice.

There are wrap dresses that are sewed together so they don’t unwrap. Those are the types I wear when I wear wrap dresses.

 

[Kensho]

Oh, by the way, the Israeli shop where I used to buy cotton scarves is www.tznius.com. They have really fancy scarves unlike anything I’ve seen in conventional stores, but they also have very plain ones in matte-finish, open-weave fabric and a wide variety of colors from the rather drab to the jewel-like and dazzling. I think they would be a pretty choice for a lady in scrubs.

 

[jeanannemarie]

I really don’t think sticking out/drawing attention to yourself for being reverent is that big of a deal. You can experience that with genuflecting, praying the rosary in church before Mass, staying in your pew after Mass longer when everybody else leaves, receiving Holy Communion on the tongue, etc.

I know for myself, the worry about sticking out/drawing attention to myself was not about wanting to be humble but rather about pride - imagine that! - because I didn’t want people to be uncharitably labeling me as holier-than-thou. I didn’t want people to think to themselves, “Oh, there goes that self-righteous hypocrite who thinks she is better than all of us because she’s covering her head.”

So I asked myself, am I really just worried that people will think badly of me? The answer was yes, and that was a really bad reason not to do it. My desire to cover my head (with a mantilla, even, because that’s what I liked) was born out of a desire to point to the fact that I am in a sacred place where God is truly present in the Eucharist… not out of a desire to make a point about myself.

So people will think things about me, like people do all the time with everything else. They will have an opinion - some good, some bad. I can’t control that. But, as I’ve seen elsewhere, “reverence never goes out of style.” The God of today is the same glorious God of the past, and it is not “too much” to want to show Him reverence. It may even do some good in this age when such a huge percentage of Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence.

Dear Catholicwife2, I think you said this very well, and exactly how I view this matter. Now I won’t have to labor over a post, thank you for saying what I wanted to say.

 

[Rosary_Girl_1]

If modesty is not drawing attention to yourself, sexually or in any other sense (green hair etc) then what about headcoverings?

So if by wearing a headcovering, which is not the cultural norm, am I attracting unnecessary attention to myself and in doing so, actually being immodest?
Or am I justified for believing I’m just following personal convictions?

I’ve always been fascinated by women who wear head coverings. They seem so … peaceful and intent on what’s going on at Mass, like they take it more seriously.

Merriam-Webster defines modesty as:
1: freedom from conceit or vanity
2: propriety in dress, speech, or conduct

I think if it’s your personal conviction to wear a head covering, then you should do it without worrying what others think or say.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

If modesty is not drawing attention to yourself, sexually or in any other sense (green hair etc) then what about headcoverings?

Just MHO:

Head coverings are not disrespectful in any way, shape, or form. In fact, they’re just the opposite; wearing a headcovering is very respectful in a Church setting. Being respectful is never wrong.

FWIW, there aren’t many people that wear head coverings at my Church. A few do, but I believe in those cases it has to do with cultural issues. The major exception is that on Good Friday many woman will wear head coverings and/or veils.

 

[alice24]

This may be better suited to the Spirituality forum.

After a quick search, I found that there are many forums here on the subject, but most are over 10 pages long, and over a year old.
So I thought I’d start a new one and let some newbies weigh in…

If modesty is not drawing attention to yourself, sexually or in any other sense (green hair etc) then what about headcoverings?
Technically, they’re biblical, (then again, so is Mary’s robe, that doesn’t mean it’s the definitive description of modest dress) but are they only traditional/cultural?

All the Masses’ I’ve gone to, I have been the only one to headcover - a practice I started even our evangelical church; though I wear a snood, and not a mantilla.
https://img2.etsystatic.com/014/0/6323945/il_570xN.433217274_i6vj.jpg
((this isn’t me, just a stock pic of the snood I purchased))

So if by wearing a headcovering, which is not the cultural norm, am I attracting unnecessary attention to myself and in doing so, actually being immodest?
Or am I justified for believing I’m just following personal convictions?

Thoughts?

Peace,
~ PetiteFoi

Hello PetiteFoi, nice to read that this discussion is still allive So, my opinion…
On the one hand our understanding of modesty, sexual attraction and its covering is something we have all as something natural in us as human beings, we discover this feelings when we discover the feel of shame for the first time. On the other hand, the specific way HOW to cover, how to hide our bodys for many reasons is definetly dependent on our culture. In some cultures trousers are for example a traditional womens clothing, but in other countrys they would be seen as immodest because they are seen as masculine. This is something we should always remember in this headcovering discussion. I don´t think that it is really necessary for every catholic woman in the world to dress like Holy Mary in the ancient world of the middle east- not in every detail. The key to a timless modesty is always the balance of being close to our human nature and its natural view on modesty and the influences of our culture on our feel of being “well and proper dressed”.
Based on the Bible, there are a few standarts given to us as a guideline for our daily dress up.

1. A woman should dress like woman, and not like a man.
2. Our clothing should show dignity, purity.

Based on 1. we should ask us questions like "are there specific femine attributes of clothing, based on our shape, our appearance? " or “how do the women dress up proper in OUR culture?”
The consequence for me is that it is sometimes more modest to dress in trousers (just as an example, if I would live in a country where this is a normal garment for women) because the views I´ll get from the men will be not that immodest because I don´t dress exotic. Another consequemce is that we can define some male and female ways of dress that are timeless- both genders tend to accentuate their specific physical features, just think of big shoulder pads for men or waist cinchers for women.

Based on 2. it is very important to look at our inner feelings.
How do you feel with a long dress/jeans/ a headcovering?
And: in wich dress you feel closest to the woman you want to be?
Sometimes we feel uncomfortable in more modest clothing because we are simple not familiar with it. We need to explore how clothing can change us ( and yes, clothing CAN do very much for our personal view on ourselves).
So if you feel strange with a headcovering for example but you are still “in love” with them, just try to wear it a week and see how you change, then decide. Please don´t be too shy with that “standing out problem”- I have often seen woman dressed in a different way, more modest, more creative, ind it was a great inspiration an in a way also a faith building help for me to see them.
I hope I didn´t bored you with this long post, I wish you a nice evening ( and please excuse all the grammar faults, I am not a native speaker )
God Bless you!

 

[gmarie21]

So if you feel strange with a headcovering for example but you are still “in love” with them, just try to wear it a week and see how you change, then decide. Please don´t be too shy with that “standing out problem”- I have often seen woman dressed in a different way, more modest, more creative, ind it was a great inspiration an in a way also a faith building help for me to see them.
I hope I didn´t bored you with this long post, I wish you a nice evening ( and please excuse all the grammar faults, I am not a native speaker )
God Bless you!

This is great advice. I am actually at that stage (where I don’t feel comfortable or “called” to wear a head covering but am to try it out. However I did go and buy about 6 scarves of different colors to try. I am not only just trying them out but trying to wear them different ways. For my daughter, we bought her three cloth headbands that the top covers the entire top of her head (bigger than the child mantillas). She likes headbands and doesn’t feel “weird” wearing them. Now, we’ll see if our perspective, hearts, and reverence change.

 

[AshJade]

I’m actually considering covering my head, but I’m a little scared about how I will be treated. I love the look of chapel veils, but I haven’t seen anyone at my parish use them. I haven’t even mentioned it to my husband yet, because he just barely started going with me and I don’t want to scare him off.

Any one know an inconspicuous way to do it?

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Head coverings: each according to her own conscience.

My wife wears a head covering, and she looks so lovely in it.

It was her decision alone to wear it, so I support her.

 

[spunjalebi]

TBH, headcoverings were always part of Catholic faith tradition but women need to cover out of their own conscience, not because someone is pressuring them.

I also find it sad to think that people would find headcovering women distracting when there will be plenty of young women and girls wearing short-shorts to church, revealing tank tops, and phrases with the words “diva” and “tease” on their shirts. Headcoverings are distracting and are the antithesis of modesty, whereas the others are…?

 

[Soren_Itenu]

To quote kid Spock, wearing a head cover is “morally praiseworthy but not morally obligatory”.