Speaking out against contraceptives

[BSHoop96]

BRENDAN

 Yes, I'm well-acquainted with the Sermon on the Mount, and I try to live by it. That's not always easy, as when Christ tells us to love our enemies (Taliban, Al Qaeda - ugh!). 

 There's a well-known maxim which goes "God helps those who help themselves." Do you really believe that we have no responsibility for our well-being? I knew a neighbor who was always saying that God would take care of his wife and their children. Guess what? He used that as an excuse to be lazy, and they lived in virtual poverty as a result.

  I presume one could interpret Jesus elsewhere in scripture to mean that we should give all that we have to the poor. Have you done that? I planned for my retirement. Perhaps I should have given all that away and lived on faith alone. Any reasonable person knows that such a philosophy contradicts our duty as parents, citizens, Christians.

  There's another saying - something like "he was so heaven-minded that he was no earthly good." Certainly, many, many passages in the Bible - both Old and New Testaments - urge us to live responsibly. Having more children than we can care for can be irresponsible. If done deliberately, I view it as a sin. Maybe you agree with the Mormons, that God has all these souls up in heaven eagerly waiting for bodily forms. 

  One other comment, and then I'll shut up. My grandmother was one of 14 children. They did okay. They lived on a farm in Quebec and produced nearly all their food. Her mother made most of their clothes. The children quit school at the 8th grade and went to work. But, please - how is a typical family going to support 14 children today? Maybe the Kennedys (not good models for Catholics despite the Catholic schools etc named in JFK's honor. Has there even been a more lecherous president in US history?) 

   'Nuff sed. Keep smiling.

Clinton?

 

[BSHoop96]

Actually, it’s not difficult at all anymore…I had a (medically necessary) hysterectomy a few years ago!:

I wasn’t necessarily meaning you personally. I just meant for young people of child-bearing age.

But the excuse that “everybody does it” is a cop out.

 

[BSHoop96]

st lucy and spewing hate

 Gosh, gee. Lots of posters seem so defensive. If you have total faith in your position, why is it necessary to tell others to grow up and not spew hate? Hm! I wonder who is spewing hate in this situation.

  I simply don't agree with the Church when it forbids all use of artificial contraception. My position is the same as that of the overwhelming majority of American Catholics as polls show. What does annoy is that some topics are introduced here - note the topic - but if anyone dissents, wow, we get blasted. It seems that if we take issue with the Church we are immature, rebellious, and in various other ways very, very, very bad. 

  Many bishops and priests of the Church were hoping that the position on birth control would change. Let me note one story. A friend went to one priest and confessed using borth control. He was harsh and gave her quite a sermon. Then, while on vacation, she went to a priest in another city. He as much as told her not to worry about it. What do you make of that?

   Okay. I 'fess up. Perhaps I've been too influenced by democracy, or maybe I just like to think freely, or possibly I just let my mind stray too far from the dogmas, doctrines, whatever. I guess I believe that God doesn't get all that angry when we try our best to live for Him but dissent or have doubts on this or that issue. I don't even believe that we are saved by our theology or by the church. We are saved by grace through Christ Jesus our Lord. And for that I am deeply grateful.

Yes, but if one professes to be a practicing Catholic and they are in direct opposition to such a critical teaching of the Church then they should at least abstain from Communion no matter what “everyone else is doing”.

 

[a_cermak]

I don’t think this teaching is a critical issue for the Catholic Church. The critical issues are put forth in the credo at every Mass (if I recall correctly). This is obviously a changeable teaching as Paul VI contemplated changing it at one time.

It may be an obvious distinction between say, Catholicism and Christian Orthodoxy, but I wouldn’t call it critical.

Also, it only affects most folks for say 20+ years, before marriage and after menopause it no longer is relevant as no lay member ever has to give assent to the teaching.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

I don’t think this teaching is a critical issue for the Catholic Church. The critical issues are put forth in the credo at every Mass (if I recall correctly). This is obviously a changeable teaching as Paul VI contemplated changing it at one time.

It may be an obvious distinction between say, Catholicism and Christian Orthodoxy, but I wouldn’t call it critical.

Also, it only affects most folks for say 20+ years, before marriage and after menopause it no longer is relevant as no lay member ever has to give assent to the teaching.

Good post! It really is not a critical issue for most Christians; and after a certain point in our lives, it ceases to be relevant at all.

 

[BSHoop96]

I don’t think this teaching is a critical issue for the Catholic Church. The critical issues are put forth in the credo at every Mass (if I recall correctly). This is obviously a changeable teaching as Paul VI contemplated changing it at one time.

It may be an obvious distinction between say, Catholicism and Christian Orthodoxy, but I wouldn’t call it critical.

Also, it only affects most folks for say 20+ years, before marriage and after menopause it no longer is relevant as no lay member ever has to give assent to the teaching.

I’ll just say then that we have a difference of opinion in how each of us is using the word “critical”. There are some things not in the creed that are dogma, btw. For instance, that only men are priests.

Actually, I have a bit of a problem myself about the wisdom of “no contraceptives” in the world today, especially when you consider 3rd world countries with starving children, etc. I’m speaking of barrier methods, not abortifacients. But that’s another thread.

My point was that as far as contraception, right now, and if and until it is changed, one should not receive communion because if you are using contraceptives you are not “in communion” with the Church.

a cermak, I forgot to add that a commission was urging Pope Paul VI to lift the ban but he instead reaffirmed it. I don’t know that he was ever going to change it. It has since been reaffirmed by the next Popes. So as you see…the Church sees it a bit differently than you.

 

[BSHoop96]

Good post! It really is not a critical issue for most Christians; and after a certain point in our lives, it ceases to be relevant at all.

Priscilla Ann,

If you have read my posts you will see that I have a few problems with it myself. But if you are Catholic (which I realize you are no longer) and the Church thinks it is relevant, which it does, then you cannot assume it to be irrelevant just because other Christians, Catholic or not, think so. Moral relativism rears it’s head once again.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Priscilla Ann,

If you have read my posts you will see that I have a few problems with it myself. But if you are Catholic (which I realize you are no longer) and the Church thinks it is relevant, which it does, then you cannot assume it to be irrelevant just because other Christians, Catholic or not, think so. Moral relativism rears it’s head once again.

It’s not moral relativism. It’s just common sense!

 

[BSHoop96]

It’s not moral relativism. It’s just common sense!

You have several times noted that (paraphrasing here) “most(?) Catholics use contraceptives while ignoring the teaching of the Church because they think it is irrelevant, unimportant, whatever.” You are using this to back up your thinking, which is in conflict with the Church, and telling yourself that it is “okay”. This is moral relativism.

I’m not quite sure why you, as a person who left the Church (although you stated for other reasons), feels the need to get on here and defend your position. Obviously you had other issues with the Church also.

My argument with you is really not even over your problem with the contraception issue …my argument is that if one is in disagreement with the Church over this and using contraceptives, one should not be receiving communion. You don’t join the Church and make your own rules because you disagree.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

You have several times noted that (paraphrasing here) “most(?) Catholics use contraceptives while ignoring the teaching of the Church because they think it is irrelevant, unimportant, whatever.” You are using this to back up your thinking, which is in conflict with the Church, and telling yourself that it is “okay”. This is moral relativism.

I’m not quite sure why you, as a person who left the Church (although you stated for other reasons), feels the need to get on here and defend your position. Obviously you had other issues with the Church also.

My argument with you is really not even over your problem with the contraception issue …my argument is that if one is in disagreement with the Church over this and using contraceptives, one should not be receiving communion. You don’t join the Church and make your own rules because you disagree.

I really didn’t intend to upset you so. I didn’t realize that non-Catholic Christians are not permitted to post here. Most forums encourage the exchange of ideas, observations and opinions.

Sorry!

 

[wanner47]

I really didn’t intend to upset you so. I didn’t realize that non-Catholic Christians are not permitted to post here. Most forums encourage the exchange of ideas, observations and opinions.

Sorry!

Wow, that’s one of the more impressive intentional mis-readings of a post I’ve ever seen. I don’t know if I should congratulate or pity you!

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Wow, that’s one of the more impressive intentional mis-readings of a post I’ve ever seen. I don’t know if I should congratulate or pity you!

Huh?

 

[newbetx]

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[Burdock]

to wanner47 i dont know why you are being so cutting with your remarks im not perfect but i think you are being quite spitefull. I need to look for a forum for non catholics who are interested in becoming catholic. goodbye .

 

[M0nkey]

to wanner47 i dont know why you are being so cutting with your remarks im not perfect but i think you are being quite spitefull. I need to look for a forum for non catholics who are interested in becoming catholic. goodbye .

I would recommend attending RCIA for authentic Catholic teaching, there is also EWTN Catholic radio, and the Gospels. Start with the Gospel of Mark, then proceed to Matthew. I think these two have the pragmatic approach of the faith, along with the words of Christ. That is not to lower the other two Gospels as they are also important.

If you are here to learn about the Catholic faith, you’ll find that people here are pretty staunch, and arrogant (I’m guilty as charge of this one). So, it’s better to ask specific questions, or attend classes that teach the faith in it’s formal context. (The way Jesus taught His Apostles).

This is obviously a changeable teaching as Paul VI contemplated changing it at one time.

Keep in mind, Pope Paul VI was confronted with the sex revolution of the 60s when Humane Vitae was written. The world was in no way ready to accept such teaching since it had found freedom and salvation in promiscuity while contraceptives were used as the mediator for this.

This is why it’s good to have a strong foundation that does not deter with the swift tides of current times. (Like the man who built his house on rock!).

 

[BSHoop96]

I really didn’t intend to upset you so. I didn’t realize that non-Catholic Christians are not permitted to post here. Most forums encourage the exchange of ideas, observations and opinions.

Sorry!

Priscilla Ann…I’m not upset. Just trying to make it clear under what circumstances once should exempt themselves from communion. Using contraception is one of those times. I didn’t understand, since you are no longer Catholic and do not have a dog in this hunt, so to speak, why you would come on a Catholic forum and encourage people to follow your view and back it up with “many Catholics do it” and “it’s common sense”, etc. However, as I said before, that’s not even what I’m taking issue with. You neglected to even respond to that.

I’m not trying to be mean. You of course have every right to express or question teachings that you have a problem with on this forum. However, I have a problem, especially since there are many people on here who may be new to the Church or actually just inquiring, or badly catechesized, with you suggesting that it’s perfectly okay to receive communion when you are in direct opposition to the offical teaching of the Church. The church is not a democracy. Believe it or not, follow it or not, but please do not promote the receiving of the Sacrament when you are in direct conflict with the Church. I have tried at least twice to tell you I am not in conflict with you expressing your opinion on contraceptives. I find it to be one of the most difficult of the teachings of the Church for people to follow in the modern world. What I find offensive is your disregard for the Sacraments.

 

[wanner47]

to wanner47 i dont know why you are being so cutting with your remarks im not perfect but i think you are being quite spitefull. I need to look for a forum for non catholics who are interested in becoming catholic. goodbye .

I’m merely speaking the Truth. If it’s “cutting” it’s because you don’t like what you’re hearing.

 

[BSHoop96]

to wanner47 i dont know why you are being so cutting with your remarks im not perfect but i think you are being quite spitefull. I need to look for a forum for non catholics who are interested in becoming catholic. goodbye .

Burdock…we are happy that you are interested in becoming Catholic. However we are trying to tell you the truth. Talking to a priest about this would probably help you. Are there people in the church already that are doing things they are not supposed to? Yes, of course. But if you want to become Catholic there are some things you must believe. You will be asked to profess these beliefs before you are accepted into the Church. You cannot say, “well yes, except I don’t believe in this one major thing and I will do what I want on this issue, but I want to become a Catholic and receive the Sacraments.” Those that are already Catholic and that receive communion when they should not are committing a sin by doing so. And you can’t say to yourself, “well I just won’t tell them about this part”, because God will know and then you will carry that burden.

 

[Priscilla_Ann]

Priscilla Ann…I’m not upset. Just trying to make it clear under what circumstances once should exempt themselves from communion. Using contraception is one of those times. I didn’t understand, since you are no longer Catholic and do not have a dog in this hunt, so to speak, why you would come on a Catholic forum and encourage people to follow your view and back it up with “many Catholics do it” and “it’s common sense”, etc. However, as I said before, that’s not even what I’m taking issue with. You neglected to even respond to that.

I’m not trying to be mean. You of course have every right to express or question teachings that you have a problem with on this forum. However, I have a problem, especially since there are many people on here who may be new to the Church or actually just inquiring, or badly catechesized, with you suggesting that it’s perfectly okay to receive communion when you are in direct opposition to the offical teaching of the Church. The church is not a democracy. Believe it or not, follow it or not, but please do not promote the receiving of the Sacrament when you are in direct conflict with the Church. I have tried at least twice to tell you I am not in conflict with you expressing your opinion on contraceptives. I find it to be one of the most difficult of the teachings of the Church for people to follow in the modern world. What I find offensive is your disregard for the Sacraments.

I am sorry that my attitude comes across as “disregard for the Sacraments.” That was never my intention.

I think that part of the problem is my age. From some of the profiles of those who post here, I can see that I am probably older than most. I am 50 years old and was married in the Catholic Church in 1982, after six months of classes with our parish priest. During those months of classes, birth control was only discussed briefly and in very vague terms, with a passing mention of Natural Family Planning. We were never taught that contraception was a mortal sin, nor were we taught that NFP was the only option if we wanted to prevent pregnancy. During my school years, I attended 11 years of CCD classes; and there again, we were never taught that artificial birth control was a mortal sin. I was a practicing Catholic for 38 years; and the sinfulness of artificial birth control just wasn’t a topic that was discussed…at least not during my childbearing years. Maybe that was just my generation, and things have changed.

I will admit it was common knowledge that the Catholic church did not approve of artificial birth control; however, it wasn’t until about 15 years ago that I learned that the Catholic Church actually considers artificial birth control to be a “mortal sin”…a sin that prevents one from receiving communion.

While I don’t agree with the Catholic teaching, it was not my intent to “disregard the sacraments”.

Again, my apologies to those who were offended.

 

[BSHoop96]

I am sorry that my attitude comes across as “disregard for the Sacraments.” That was never my intention.

I think that part of the problem is my age. From some of the profiles of those who post here, I can see that I am probably older than most. I am 50 years old and was married in the Catholic Church in 1982, after six months of classes with our parish priest. During those months of classes, birth control was only discussed briefly and in very vague terms, with a passing mention of Natural Family Planning. We were never taught that contraception was a mortal sin, nor were we taught that NFP was the only option if we wanted to prevent pregnancy. During my school years, I attended 11 years of CCD classes; and there again, we were never taught that artificial birth control was a mortal sin. I was a practicing Catholic for 38 years; and the sinfulness of artificial birth control just wasn’t a topic that was discussed…at least not during my childbearing years. Maybe that was just my generation, and things have changed.

I will admit it was common knowledge that the Catholic church did not approve of artificial birth control; however, it wasn’t until about 15 years ago that I learned that the Catholic Church actually considers artificial birth control to be a “mortal sin”…a sin that prevents one from receiving communion.

While I don’t agree with the Catholic teaching, it was not my intent to “disregard the sacraments”.

Again, my apologies to those who were offended.

Thank you for your explanation. It’s a difficult and touchy issue and in talking to different priests I would imagine that you would get some varying advice even today as has been attested to on this forum.