Speaking the truth in love about homosexuality (Bishop James Conley)

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A much needed cool head on the matter.

Controversial issues tend to make each side dehumanize the other. Look at what slavery did in the 1800’s. Look what abortion has done in the last 60 years. Today’s debates about homosexuality are exactly the same.

We need to avoid the temptation to demonize people inclined to commit sins that are different from the sins WE are inclined to. Seeing it that way always helps me rest perspective.
 
We are living in a society where right and wrong is blurred and unfortunately there are people who get caught up in that. What’s “in” seems to be the path that many take but thank God for prayer, religion and spirituality because it evangelizes the truth. I believe that God loves all of us no matter how broken we are. I do pray for all those people who have the tendency of SSA that they find the ultimate truth found between the love of man and woman.
 
bishop conley is apparently undereducated on the matter of homosexuality.

all sane, rational, educated, etc scientists and academics these days are in agreement that homosexuality, rather than any sort of sin, is a completely normal lifestyle enjoyed by millions all over our planet.

thousands of species, including nearly all mammals, have been documented as exhibiting homosexual behavior, for a variety of varying (by species) evolutionary reasons.

in homo sapiens, our species, homosexuality likely functions to relieve stress, for one thing, in certain social situations, and furthermore, most homosexuals can attest that they knew their sexual orientation and proclivity from a very early age.

homosexuality is not a disorder, as bishop conley claims, but rather is a normal expression of human sexuality that has been stigmatized socially for many decades in american and western society. perhaps bishop conley, as well as many contributors to this thread, needs to become better educated about the scientifically concluded facts about homosexuality. he appears to me to be deficient in education for his position of social and cultural power.

just as religionists, including catholics at all strata, denied the possibility that evolution was factual and true, so today relligionists tend strongly to be frightened by the facts about homosexuality and tend to stick to “old-timey” traditionalist understandings of this factually normal lifestyle of humanity.

i realize that the above claims will likely meet with resistance from the less-educated and less liberal members of this forum, but nevertheless, i feel now that i should post them, in order to help, to some (very) small measure bring about a day when all of god’s children, straight and gay, may come to the table of sisterhood and brotherhood and regard each other as equals.

most sincerely
jonathan “whitecrayon”
 
whitecrayon said:
bishop conley is apparently undereducated on the matter of homosexuality.

all sane, rational, educated, etc scientists and academics these days are in agreement that homosexuality, rather than any sort of sin, is a completely normal lifestyle enjoyed by millions all over our planet.

thousands of species, including nearly all mammals, have been documented as exhibiting homosexual behavior, for a variety of varying (by species) evolutionary reasons.

in homo sapiens, our species, homosexuality likely functions to relieve stress, for one thing, in certain social situations, and furthermore, most homosexuals can attest that they knew their sexual orientation and proclivity from a very early age.

homosexuality is not a disorder, as bishop conley claims, but rather is a normal expression of human sexuality that has been stigmatized socially for many decades in american and western society. perhaps bishop conley, as well as many contributors to this thread, needs to become better educated about the scientifically concluded facts about homosexuality. he appears to me to be deficient in education for his position of social and cultural power.

just as religionists, including catholics at all strata, denied the possibility that evolution was factual and true, so today relligionists tend strongly to be frightened by the facts about homosexuality and tend to stick to “old-timey” traditionalist understandings of this factually normal lifestyle of humanity.

i realize that the above claims will likely meet with resistance from the less-educated and less liberal members of this forum, but nevertheless, i feel now that i should post them, in order to help, to some (very) small measure bring about a day when all of god’s children, straight and gay, may come to the table of sisterhood and brotherhood and regard each other as equals.

most sincerely
jonathan “whitecrayon”
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Dare I ask if you have read any of the 2,000 other threads regarding homosexuality in which all of your points above were dealt with by very well educated and erudite individuals?
 
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ah, the “clinging to their God and guns” argument. So sophisticated.

The sure sign of someone worried about the veracity of their argument is when they resort to ridicule.

I daresay that every one of those sage oracle of wisdom he relies upon also endorses contraception as a lifestyle without negative consequences as well. Regardless of the glaring evidence all around us. Stay tuned, sir. This culture’s in for a wild ride ahead.
 
whitecrayon said:
bishop conley is apparently undereducated on the matter of homosexuality.

all sane, rational, educated, etc scientists and academics these days are in agreement that homosexuality, rather than any sort of sin, is a completely normal lifestyle enjoyed by millions all over our planet.

thousands of species, including nearly all mammals, have been documented as exhibiting homosexual behavior, for a variety of varying (by species) evolutionary reasons.

in homo sapiens, our species, homosexuality likely functions to relieve stress, for one thing, in certain social situations, and furthermore, most homosexuals can attest that they knew their sexual orientation and proclivity from a very early age.

homosexuality is not a disorder, as bishop conley claims, but rather is a normal expression of human sexuality that has been stigmatized socially for many decades in american and western society. perhaps bishop conley, as well as many contributors to this thread, needs to become better educated about the scientifically concluded facts about homosexuality. he appears to me to be deficient in education for his position of social and cultural power.

just as religionists, including catholics at all strata, denied the possibility that evolution was factual and true, so today relligionists tend strongly to be frightened by the facts about homosexuality and tend to stick to “old-timey” traditionalist understandings of this factually normal lifestyle of humanity.

i realize that the above claims will likely meet with resistance from the less-educated and less liberal members of this forum, but nevertheless, i feel now that i should post them, in order to help, to some (very) small measure bring about a day when all of god’s children, straight and gay, may come to the table of sisterhood and brotherhood and regard each other as equals.

most sincerely
jonathan “whitecrayon”
Click to expand...
Your uncouthness is rivaled only by your haughtiness
 
“Courage is designed to be a source of strength, of guidance, and of solidarity for men and women who struggle with a lonely, and often humiliating, temptation.”

This, I believe, is one of the problems with Courage. This viewpoint literally takes what for many is their very sexuality and reduces it to nothing more than a temptation. (Hence the 12-step approach.)

A person’s sexuality, disordered or not, is far more than a sum of temptations. In fact, the word “temptation” is probably the last on my list of words best used to describe a person’s sexuality.

The issue is so far beyond the scope of temptation. For many with a homosexual orientation, overcoming temptation is the least of their problems. For many, it isn’t about leaving a lifestyle behind or correcting a behavior, it’s about learning to embrace themselves, all of themselves, and to see themselves not as the world does, but as God does.

Every person’s sexuality can be lived in a beautiful way, one pleasing to God. It’s much more than temptation, and for many, courage is only the first step. Personally, I would love to see Courage focus on how SSA person’s can live their sexuality in a beautiful way, rather than focus on denying that “humiliating temptation”.
 
Whitecrayon

I apologize if I am uneducated, and I know I am not liberal in the modern political sense. But since you describe yourself as Christian, I wonder how you reconcile the clear denunciations in Scripture along with the beliefs of Christian churches throughout all of history with your own beliefs?

Also, what on earth do scientists and academics have to do with the matter? Scientists could at best show us if SSA has biological factors. Academics could at best tell us that lots of people are active homosexuals. Neither has anything to do with the morality of the issue.
 
Kolbe300 said:
“Courage is designed to be a source of strength, of guidance, and of solidarity for men and women who struggle with a lonely, and often humiliating, temptation.”

This, I believe, is one of the problems with Courage. This viewpoint literally takes what for many is their very sexuality and reduces it to nothing more than a temptation. (Hence the 12-step approach.)

A person’s sexuality, disordered or not, is far more than a sum of temptations. In fact, the word “temptation” is probably the last on my list of words best used to describe a person’s sexuality.

The issue is so far beyond the scope of temptation. For many with a homosexual orientation, overcoming temptation is the least of their problems. For many, it isn’t about leaving a lifestyle behind or correcting a behavior, it’s about learning to embrace themselves, all of themselves, and to see themselves not as the world does, but as God does.

Every person’s sexuality can be lived in a beautiful way, one pleasing to God. It’s much more than temptation, and for many, courage is only the first step. Personally, I would love to see Courage focus on how SSA person’s can live their sexuality in a beautiful way, rather than focus on denying that “humiliating temptation”.
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Well, sublimated homosexuality can produce things that are not only dazzlingly beautiful, but also praise God

 
dear equites christi

i am sorry if i have offended you or anyone else with my above reference to people’s level of education (in my first post within this thread). that was rude of me. it’s just that often the less educated are more likely to adhere to or to fall back on out-dated, conservative viewpoints on topics allegedly dealing with morality than are better educated folks, who usually are liberals (for instance, over 90% of research university professors in america are liberals). further, you probably are plenty well-educated, given the intelligent way you write (as in your intelligent post above).

as to how i reconcile with my christian faith my beliefs that homosexuality is normal, biologically speaking, and that it should be normalized, sociologically speaking (and this ties in with your other point about biblical scripture dealing with homosexuality): only six references to homosexuality appear in the holy christian bible. here they are:

. “do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.” (leviticus 18:22)

. “if a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. they must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.” (leviticus 20:13)

. “because of this, god gave them over to shameful lusts. even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. in the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” (romans 1:26-27)

. "before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of sodom — both young and old — surrounded the house. they called to lot: “where are the men who came to you tonight? bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.” (genesis 19:4-5)

. “do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of god? do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of god.” (1 corinthians 6:9-10)

. “…knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine…” (1 timothy 1:9-10)

first, the references in leviticus clearly hail from an earlier time, before christ’s forgiveness, given that the second one calls for the “put[ting] to death” of homosexual offenders. christ taught instead: “let he amongst you who hath no sin cast the first stone”.

second, the reference in romans may only refer to persons who were naturally heterosexual. it does not seem to refer to naturally born homosexuals, which make up the majority of the homosexual community here in america (and everywhere else).

third, the genesis story of the sodomites who wanted to rape lot’s male servants refers only to a bunch of sickos. it does not necessarily condemn natural homosexuality at all.

fourth, the references in 1 corinthians and 1 timothy i write off as well, given that paul’s letters are clearly out-dated in a few ways on other matters, such as women having to wear head covers in churches. paul was a member of a culture in a time that could not understand what contemporary science has concluded about homosexuality. this argument applies even more forcefully to all of the old testament references to homosexuality as well.

i hope this clarification of how a devout christian can these days find homosexuality to be “normal” (at least in the sense of not being something that ought to be stigmatized as any sort of especially horrible sin) helps you and any others who may read this post.

good day
whitecrayon

fifth,
 
whitecrayon said:
dear equites christi

i am sorry if i have offended you or anyone else with my above reference to people’s level of education (in my first post within this thread). that was rude of me. it’s just that often the less educated are more likely to adhere to or to fall back on out-dated, conservative viewpoints on topics allegedly dealing with morality than are better educated folks, who usually are liberals (for instance, over 90% of research university professors in america are liberals). further, you probably are plenty well-educated, given the intelligent way you write (as in your intelligent post above).

as to how i reconcile with my christian faith my beliefs that homosexuality is normal, biologically speaking, and that it should be normalized, sociologically speaking (and this ties in with your other point about biblical scripture dealing with homosexuality): only six references to homosexuality appear in the holy christian bible. here they are:

. “do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.” (leviticus 18:22)

. “if a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. they must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.” (leviticus 20:13)

. “because of this, god gave them over to shameful lusts. even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. in the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” (romans 1:26-27)

. "before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of sodom — both young and old — surrounded the house. they called to lot: “where are the men who came to you tonight? bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.” (genesis 19:4-5)

. “do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of god? do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of god.” (1 corinthians 6:9-10)

. “…knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine…” (1 timothy 1:9-10)

first, the references in leviticus clearly hail from an earlier time, before christ’s forgiveness, given that the second one calls for the “put[ting] to death” of homosexual offenders. christ taught instead: “let he amongst you who hath no sin cast the first stone”.

second, the reference in romans may only refer to persons who were naturally heterosexual. it does not seem to refer to naturally born homosexuals, which make up the majority of the homosexual community here in america (and everywhere else).

third, the genesis story of the sodomites who wanted to rape lot’s male servants refers only to a bunch of sickos. it does not necessarily condemn natural homosexuality at all.

fourth, the references in 1 corinthians and 1 timothy i write off as well, given that paul’s letters are clearly out-dated in a few ways on other matters, such as women having to wear head covers in churches. paul was a member of a culture in a time that could not understand what contemporary science has concluded about homosexuality. this argument applies even more forcefully to all of the old testament references to homosexuality as well.

i hope this clarification of how a devout christian can these days find homosexuality to be “normal” (at least in the sense of not being something that ought to be stigmatized as any sort of especially horrible sin) helps you and any others who may read this post.

good day
whitecrayon

fifth,
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All sex outside of marriage is wrong and homosexual acts can never be within marriage ergo homosexual acts are always wrong
 
Dakota_Roberts said:
All sex outside of marriage is wrong and homosexual acts can never be within marriage ergo homosexual acts are always wrong
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yes, count me among the uneducated, conservative, neanderthals that believes this too. I have a masters degree in engineering.

Peace,
John Marie Philomena
 
JohnMPhilomena said:
yes, count me among the uneducated, conservative, neanderthals that believes this too. I have a masters degree in engineering.

Peace,
John Marie Philomena
Click to expand...
The reason the Catechism says “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered” is because in no situation can it be ordered
 
Dakota_Roberts said:
The reason the Catechism says “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered” is because in no situation can it be ordered
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This is because by their nature they cannot be ordered towards procreation, the primary end of human sexuality. For the same reason the Church rejects the use of artificial contraception.
 
To believe that something is ‘disordered’; you have to believe that it was, or could be, ‘ordered’. Sexual reproduction is only one of the forms of reproduction that have evolved, and it does not represent any sort of ‘order’. Rather, it represents a form of reproduction that has proved successful for some species. Human sexual behaviour is probably also adaptive. The widespread existence of homosexual behaviours among humans and other primates probably indicates that at least in the past it has increased reproductive success of groups, just as having people live beyond child-bearing age appears to. “Natural law”, a philosophic theory developed in ancient times and developed in the middle ages is not ‘law’ at all. It does not exist, except in the minds of those who study it. The cruelty to those who ‘break’ natural law by those who adhere it it is one of the sad things about Catholic Answers, made sadder because those who believe in it really do think they are doing good.
 
Dakota_Roberts said:
Your uncouthness is rivaled only by your haughtiness
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There are as more questions than answers about human sexuality. I would not say it the same way as Whitecrayon did, but the essential point is that the Church is diverging from scientific advance at this time. The rift between what is believed by some religions, and what is theorized in the study or human sexuality is growing wider.

It is not clear how this will be reconciled. However, it has been possible to do so on other controversial issues in the past. It will take some time.
 
Quirious said:
There are as more questions than answers about human sexuality. I would not say it the same way as Whitecrayon did, but the essential point is that the Church is diverging from scientific advance at this time. The rift between what is believed by some religions, and what is theorized in the study or human sexuality is growing wider.

It is not clear how this will be reconciled. However, it has been possible to do so on other controversial issues in the past. It will take some time.
Click to expand...
Verily there are more questions than answers. Also how about that luminiferous aether (hypothesized thing which turned out to be bunk)?

The Church does not waver on nonnegotiable things.
 
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