Special Education

[Smber2c]

Quick disclaimer: it seems that Politically correctness may vary by region for this topic. Everything I say I intend with the utmost respect for these ‘mentally challenged’ individuals as people with full rights, respect, and value. (example would be my Aunt worked in Louisiana where it was ‘correct’ to say “Mentally Handicapped Students”, my girlfriend’s school district in Montana tells teachers do say “Mentally Retarded”, while my sister-in-law was told at her clinic to say “special”. )

My question concerns schooling. I’ve heard many ways to educate and include varieties of students in the same classroom, but I have to question the reason behind pushing mentally challenged children through grades and classes with all the kids their age.

Arguments in support I’ve heard:

• it helps them learn social skills.
• it keeps them from being treated as 2nd class people.
• it benefits the other students by having all sorts of children in the classroom.

I agree, the third point seems valid.
The first seems partially true. But mentally challenged children of course will have a wide spectrum of abilities and limitations - and getting their surroundings to match their level of redyness seems more logical. (Do we teach sex ed to a boy who will always be 5 years old inside?) For those who will not mentally develop past the equivalent of 6 or 7 or 8 year olds, it seems that they will soon be unable to keep up with class work and will slow the class’ learning down. For those who are higher functioning than the class, it seems they are being held back by the class, and should be afforded whatever accelerated classes available that would allow for their actually learning, while doing whatever possible to maintain some community.

The second point though is where I see a problem. The idea of having a child who’s brain can only function as a 7 year old in a 8th grade classroom seems like having a deaf child taking a music class. Yes, there is some benefit, but there seems there are more beneficial things the child could be doing.

I’ve heard putting kids in special ed classes called bigoted. I think however that really it is simply honest. Why pretending that a child is being included in a High School Geometry class while they are really doing a 2nd grade addition worksheet with an aid in the corner?

We’ve been lead to believe that it is inclusive. I have some minor feelings of discrimination right now, while suggesting they shouldn’t be in that classroom. But the more I consider it, the more I realize it is pretending that they are ‘just like everyone else’ that makes mentally challenged kids seem second class.

They are different. Fine. Good. God crafted every one of us and we all have inestimable worth. So George won’t ever be an accountant, so what! But pretending like he might be isn’t respecting who he is, it’s respecting who we wish he was…and that thought makes me very sad.

This wishing, even pretending, children were something else, something more “normal”, strikes me as a hidden and even unintentional motivation for inclusion.

Is this reasonable? Is this notion discussed among educators? Just a worry of mine.

 

[boppaid]

Well, in the “real world” these students are not segregated, but functioning among the masses. My sister in law was in special education, with (I think) about an 5th grade educational mentality. She is now in her 30s and has had to deal with various bosses, her landlord, other tenants in her building, etc. Without mainstreaming, would she have had the skills necessary to help her get through life as an adult? I’mnot sure.

It does help regular ed students as well, since these students (as adults) will need to deal with people like my sister in law.

In a regular ed classroom, where a special ed student is mainstreamed, the school has work on an IEP with the parents to provide personalized ways to help that student along. Oftentimes it includes having an aide in the regular ed classroom with them. (I was such an aide one time.)

 

[boppaid]

I’d like to add something very important. I think it is CRUCIAL for an elementary school to have a special education department, with teacher who earned their degrees specifically in special education. Even when students are mainstreamed, they need the support of a special education department. Always.

 

[DAWNCUROLE]

As the parent of 2 children with special needs I have to say, while I see some benefit to inlcusion for some children, in the case of my children it has hurt them more than helped. Louisiana is currently planning to eliminate special education departments in schools because we don’t want any “child left behind.” Unfortunately, a lot of children are being forgotten. While, saying these children will grow up and have to deal others who do not have special needs, may be true, there are differences. My son who is 16 works in a grocery store part time. He deals with a boss, the public and peers. If however he had problems he could change jobs, change departments, etc (he has a choice). When, however he is in a class with children who understand the work he is asking a questions on and they are annoyed and ready to move on, my son has no choice. I am not for keeping people out because they are different, I am for allowing children the support they need to succeed. I do not think, at least in Louisiana, that the public school system gets it.

 

[leonie]

What a hard question!!!

The only experience I have had that my nephew who has a learning disability was mainstreamed, and at 20, he can’t read. All those years, he was sent to resource teachers who read his homework to him and his tests to him. He had straight A’s in fifth grade!!! And, couldn’t read, of course.

I think he would have been better off in an intensive reading program for a couple of years instead of mainstreaming.

The poor kid. He got no breaks. The mainstreamed kids called him Ad-dumb to play on his name “Adam.” My sister was LD herself and was not really very well equipped to advocate for him.

It breaks my heart. Absolutely the system failed him. If he’d had intensive help with his reading disability for a couple of years, then he could have possibly then jumped in with his peers.

I used to substitute teach in a lot of special ed classrooms before I became a mother. I remember thinking, “if my child ever needs special ed., I’ll homeschool.”

We do homeschool. My oldest son didn’t read until he was ten, but by the end of that summer, he was reading Lord of the Rings. I shudder to think what would have happened to him in a school setting.

 

[boppaid]

As the parent of 2 children with special needs I have to say, while I see some benefit to inlcusion for some children, in the case of my children it has hurt them more than helped. Louisiana is currently planning to eliminate special education departments in schools because we don’t want any “child left behind.” Unfortunately, a lot of children are being forgotten. While, saying these children will grow up and have to deal others who do not have special needs, may be true, there are differences. My son who is 16 works in a grocery store part time. He deals with a boss, the public and peers. If however he had problems he could change jobs, change departments, etc (he has a choice). When, however he is in a class with children who understand the work he is asking a questions on and they are annoyed and ready to move on, my son has no choice. I am not for keeping people out because they are different, I am for allowing children the support they need to succeed. I do not think, at least in Louisiana, that the public school system gets it.

Good points. It really depends on the child, which is why an EXCELLENT special ed program is necessary. If a proper IEP is done, the best situation for each individual child should be taken into account.

 

[boppaid]

What a hard question!!!

The only experience I have had that my nephew who has a learning disability was mainstreamed, and at 20, he can’t read. All those years, he was sent to resource teachers who read his homework to him and his tests to him. He had straight A’s in fifth grade!!! And, couldn’t read, of course.

I think he would have been better off in an intensive reading program for a couple of years instead of mainstreaming.

The poor kid. He got no breaks. The mainstreamed kids called him Ad-dumb to play on his name “Adam.” My sister was LD herself and was not really very well equipped to advocate for him.

It breaks my heart. Absolutely the system failed him. If he’d had intensive help with his reading disability for a couple of years, then he could have possibly then jumped in with his peers.

I used to substitute teach in a lot of special ed classrooms before I became a mother. I remember thinking, “if my child ever needs special ed., I’ll homeschool.”

We do homeschool. My oldest son didn’t read until he was ten, but by the end of that summer, he was reading Lord of the Rings. I shudder to think what would have happened to him in a school setting.

That is such a sad story! Yes, the school failed him.

 

[vern_humphrey]

There are fads in schooling, as in all government programs. Special education usually means, “Separate these kids from all the others and forget about them.” Mainstreaming means, “Put them in the same class with the others and forget about them.”

 

[boppaid]

There are fads in schooling, as in all government programs. Special education usually means, “Separate these kids from all the others and forget about them.” Mainstreaming means, “Put them in the same class with the others and forget about them.”

That is so sad that you think that! There are MANY dedicated special education teachers out there who have extensive educations and devote their careers to helping students with learning and/or behavioral disabilities. I’m so so sad you haven’t experienced this, because I am assuming from your post that you have had some VERY negative experiences with regards to special ed. Were you in such a program? Your child? Whatever happened, I’m truly sorry and sad. Rest assured that MOST teachers who are specialized in special education are truly dedicated.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That is so sad that you think that!

I don’t think it, I know it. I know many cases where children with special needs got no help at all – including one case in New York where the parents had to spend many dollars in court just to get their child out of a school where he was neglected and taunted by other children.

There are MANY dedicated special education teachers out there who have extensive educations and devote their careers to helping students with learning and/or behavioral disabilities.

There are also MANY children out there who aren’t getting the help they need.

I’m so so sad you haven’t experienced this, because I am assuming from your post that you have had some VERY negative experiences with regards to special ed. Were you in such a program? Your child? Whatever happened, I’m truly sorry and sad. Rest assured that MOST teachers who are specialized in special education are truly dedicated.

Fortunatly, we were able to help one child ourselves – but over many years I have found so many cases of children being neglected that I have to believe it’s the rule.

How else do we explain the 30% failure to graduate from high school? How do we explain that many who do graduate are unable to read and write?

 

[cockatoo]

As a person who has been through “special ed”, I have to say I hated it, and its a huge mistake. If they have a severe disability(like autism) then it is okay. However, all teachers should be prepared to teach those who are in special ed even if that means they get a little more attention than the rest of the class. The first school I went to I was a little slow in kindergarten and they held me back, partly because the school psycologist had a mile long list of everything that was wrong with me. I was picked on all the time, since then I have only one friend, because being slower or in “special ed” makes a great target. We are not as different as everyone thinks, I have had huge advantages that many kids don’t, one was that I was great at math so when it came the time for me to be put into math class in 5th(i was the second lowest in fourth, though supposed to be second highest, the reason was that the teacher who taught that class picked on a slow student over the class phone with my 3rd grade teacher and i was afraid) they put me into the slowest class, and with me that is a huge mistake. I got worse, I lost attention in class and my best friend who was in a higher math class was worse than me, i helped her with math work. In 3rd grade I had a teacher try to “fix” my “learning disability”, I was not allowed to ask questions, things in my back pack were dumped on the floor infront of my class and things including toys were thrown out from that backpack(i never played with toys during class, it was for snack break). That same teacher said that if I told my mom she would just yell at me, and i come home tell my mom she calls the school and starts a fight to make them put me in another class. Never happened, they insisted that he was a good teacher, even though we are not the first to complain. 5th grade was another one of those bad years my teacher sat the class down when I wasn’t in the room and told them of my learning disability. That went well. Finally I am sent to a 15,000 a year school for the disabled, I didnt fit in and it was too slow for me. After 2 years we search for another Catholic school, one problem none of them would accept students from my previous school. I finnally find one and get in. Too late the damage is done, I had no friends there, stayed by myself, and lived in books like Lord of the Rings. I was also a wreck, I feared answering questions in class since 3rd grade and still have problems although i am homeschooled now which is much better for me. I did not go to normal high school because I did not get into the ones I wanted too and the ones available were I will just say even though they were Catholic schools, they did things people my age shouldn’t.

 

[Smber2c]

How else do we explain the 30% failure to graduate from high school? How do we explain that many who do graduate are unable to read and write?

It’s interesting how my expectations can makes this suprising. If 30% don’t graduate high school, then 70% do graduate and that seems rather impressive.

Maybe haveing had very limited experience with the mentally challenged (none of my relatives or people in my high school had mental handcaps).

It there a general expectatoin that everyone can and should graduate from high school? I certainly think that the vast majority of the population should, but I also believe that a High School diploma should say certain things: among those “I can read”, “I can write”, and “I can do basic algebra.”

Are more that 70% of mentally challenged people capable of this? I don’t mean that to be insulting, I’m honestly just asking. My conception of the mentally challenged may be skewed to those with the most severe conditions.

For example I don’t think of slight to moderate terets syndrome, slight to moderate dislexia, being bi-polar, or a pretty bad studder to be metally challenged. All of these things were represented at my high school.

Are the things mentioned here considered part of the nations mentally challenged? (I don’t expect they are, but maybe I’m wrong ).

 

[cockatoo]

It’s interesting how my expectations can makes this suprising. If 30% don’t graduate high school, then 70% do graduate and that seems rather impressive.

Maybe haveing had very limited experience with the mentally challenged (none of my relatives or people in my high school had mental handcaps).

It there a general expectatoin that everyone can and should graduate from high school? I certainly think that the vast majority of the population should, but I also believe that a High School diploma should say certain things: among those “I can read”, “I can write”, and “I can do basic algebra.”

Are more that 70% of mentally challenged people capable of this? I don’t mean that to be insulting, I’m honestly just asking. My conception of the mentally challenged may be skewed to those with the most severe conditions.

For example I don’t think of slight to moderate terets syndrome, slight to moderate dislexia, being bi-polar, or a pretty bad studder to be metally challenged. All of these things were represented at my high school.

Are the things mentioned here considered part of the nations mentally challenged? (I don’t expect they are, but maybe I’m wrong ).

In my experience yes, one of the people in the school with “mentally disabled” students was a studderer(sp). Most were ADD and ADHD.

 

[vern_humphrey]

It’s interesting how my expectations can makes this suprising. If 30% don’t graduate high school, then 70% do graduate and that seems rather impressive.

Seventy percent graduation rate is “rather impressive?”

Would you buy a car from a company that advertised, “We have an impressive reliabiltiy rate – 70% of our cars actually run!”

Maybe haveing had very limited experience with the mentally challenged (none of my relatives or people in my high school had mental handcaps).

By no means are all those who fail to graduate “mentally challenged!” And to brand them with that stigma is unfair.

It there a general expectatoin that everyone can and should graduate from high school?

Yes!!

What right do we have to condemn 30% of children to low-paid jobs or welfare for life?

Non-highschool graduates are the only group in America who have actually gone backward economically in the last 30 years.

We pay to educate** every** child. And we have a right to expect all of them to be educated.

I certainly think that the vast majority of the population should, but I also believe that a High School diploma should say certain things: among those “I can read”, “I can write”, and “I can do basic algebra.”

Yes, indeed it should. And every normal child should be brought to that level, not just those who live in certain districts.

Are more that 70% of mentally challenged people capable of this? I don’t mean that to be insulting, I’m honestly just asking. My conception of the mentally challenged may be skewed to those with the most severe conditions.

I assure you that the “mentally challenged” do not equal 30% of the entire population!!

For example I don’t think of slight to moderate terets syndrome, slight to moderate dislexia, being bi-polar, or a pretty bad studder to be metally challenged. All of these things were represented at my high school.

Are you saying 30% of the children had those problems? To such a degree they were uneducable?

Are the things mentioned here considered part of the nations mentally challenged? (I don’t expect they are, but maybe I’m wrong ).

Once again, I assure you that those who are so disabled they cannot do high school work is far less than 30% of the general population!

 

[vern_humphrey]

In my experience yes, one of the people in the school with “mentally disabled” students was a studderer(sp). Most were ADD and ADHD.

But once you pin that label on them, they’ll never get out from under it.

There are masses of studies that show when you label a child, the child will live up to (or down to) the label.

 

[cockatoo]

But once you pin that label on them, they’ll never get out from under it.

There are masses of studies that show when you label a child, the child will live up to (or down to) the label.

That is how it is. I don’t like it, I grew up with the “learning disabled” label. People think less of you with it. That is why many of my classmates could not get into other schools, their parents were stuck paying 15,000 a year.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That is how it is. I don’t like it, I grew up with the “learning disabled” label. People think less of you with it. That is why many of my classmates could not get into other schools, their parents were stuck paying 15,000 a year.

That’s exactly right.

I am reminded of a piece “60 Minutes” did on American Somoa, and the impact of the Great Society. At one point they interviewed a Special Education teacher who had been sent out there. The interviewer said, “This is a small country. What if you don’t find any children who need Special Education?”

She said, “I was sent here to educate children, and I’ll find children who need Special Education.”’

When she said that, my blood ran cold.

 

[cockatoo]

That’s exactly right.

I am reminded of a piece “60 Minutes” did on American Somoa, and the impact of the Great Society. At one point they interviewed a Special Education teacher who had been sent out there. The interviewer said, “This is a small country. What if you don’t find any children who need Special Education?”

She said, “I was sent here to educate children, and I’ll find children who need Special Education.”’

When she said that, my blood ran cold.

That is a bit scary. Makes me wonder if any of my previous classmates were diagnosed by someone like that. How does a teacher diagnose someone anyway, its a physcologist who does that and it is best to NEVER be a school physchologist, doing the diagnosis.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That is a bit scary. Makes me wonder if any of my previous classmates were diagnosed by someone like that. How does a teacher diagnose someone anyway, its a physcologist who does that and it is best to NEVER be a school physchologist, doing the diagnosis.

There is money in Special Education and that can lead to all sorts of abuses. The general rule is, if you suspect your child has a problem, take him or her to a child psychologist of your choice and do not tell the psychologist what to look for.

 

[Smber2c]

Would you buy a car from a company that advertised, “We have an impressive reliabiltiy rate – 70% of our cars actually run!”
By no means are all those who fail to graduate “mentally challenged!” And to brand them with that stigma is unfair.

Hey Vern, I’m sorry if “mentally challenged” is offensive to you. Please do tell me what would be a better alternative. As I explained in my opening that I definantly don’t mean to offend or lessen the dignity of anyone.
You used “normal” to explain ‘the general pubilc’, but I certainly won’t use the opposite of that (abnorman?) for special ed children.

Seventy percent graduation rate is “rather impressive?”
What right do we have to condemn 30% of children to low-paid jobs or welfare for life?
Non-highschool graduates are the only group in America who have actually gone backward economically in the last 30 years.
We pay to educate** every** child. And we have a right to expect all of them to be educated.
Yes, indeed it should. And every normal child should be brought to that level, not just those who live in certain districts.
I assure you that the “mentally challenged” do not equal 30% of the entire population!!
Are you saying 30% of the children had those problems? To such a degree they were uneducable?
Once again, I assure you that those who are so disabled they cannot do high school work is far less than 30% of the general population!

I really think that reading my post on the 70% again may help. I didn’t suggest anything about 30% of the nations population being in special educaiton. I said that if 70% of the mentally challenged graduated high school that seemed (name removed by moderator)ressive.

I was merely pulling the % from your earlier post. If the 30% failure you refrenced wasn’t ment as the overall graduation scores, then no I don’t see that as impressive. And if so, I apologise for misunderstanding your post.

But I also don’t think we can ever expect that 100% of the population learn to read, write, and do algebra at a high school level. There are definantly a portion of the population that this won’t be capable of this. And no it isn’t nearly as big as 30%, I agree. But the answer isn’t slap diplomas in their hands anyway.

Ideally we would have an educational system that nurtured each child to their highest potential. And for those who’s highest potential isn’t a high school diploma, isn’t that okay? DId God make a mistake in how he made them?

Or should we instead make sure we have jobs that pay living wages to men and women of any education?