Specific Church Teaching on Gender Transitioning?

[JimG]

Brain differences may be less important than we imagine. There is also the question that if there are brain differences, does that justify bodily mutilation?

The biggest myth about our brains is that they are "male" or "female"

Female scientists that say they are at the forefront of a movement to liberate people of all genders from what they see as the sexist limits of "hardwiring."

qz.com

 

[QwertyGirl]

I am so glad you are feeling happier these days. Good for you.

 

[OraLabora]

There is also the question that if there are brain differences, does that justify bodily mutilation?

It depends on the severity of the person’s problem. Is he or she suicidal? Has he or she attempted suicide already? Would you amputate an organ that is diseased (say cancer)? What is justifiable mutilation? Cancer yes, disease seated in the brain (i.e. mental illness) no? Who gets to decide, theologians or health care professionals?

There is no doubt that many of the transgendered are deeply unhappy in their birth gender. Doesn’t everyone deserve a reasonable shot at happiness?

I’m keeping an open mind about this. The science is not yet entirely clear, it is true. It needs to be looked at from both angles. Yes, we need to ask questions, but it would be wrong IMHO to issue blanket condemnations without a better scientific understanding. The Church should avoid another “Galileo moment”. She could, and should, though, urge caution and perhaps counsel conservative treatments in all but the most difficult cases.

mmldwheel40’s case shows that this is not a black-and-white subject.

mmldwheel40, you are in my prayers and I pray that your family’s consideration of you eventually aligns with your real identity.

 

[JimG]

Being born with both male and female parts is of course a physical problem. Physical problems can sometimes be solved surgically. Being born without physical or genetic anomalies is not the same. Yes, some with gender dysphoria are deeply unhappy in their birth gender. And some have a change of mind after transitioning and are deeply unhappy with the transition and regret having had it done.

One would not want a similar situation to the fad for doing frontal lobotomies back in the 1940’s as a treatment for mental illness which ended up only making things worse.

I agree that caution should be urged.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

i sometimes wonder about the ethics of the people who provide the surgery and hormones, obviously it’s in their interest to convince people that you can become a man or a woman with treatment.

 

[OraLabora]

i sometimes wonder about the ethics of the people who provide the surgery and hormones, obviously it’s in their interest to convince people that you can become a man or a woman with treatment

You could say the same for many medical treatments, for example statins, to which I am extremely intolerant to the point of greatly reducing my quality of life but which my doctor keeps trying to push on me.

Sometimes I think drug companies are trying to treat data, and the bottom line, but not the patient. And I say this as husband of a doctor.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

That definitely happens. My mother had a friend who wanted to try adjusting her diet first before statins and her GP was very negative. In her case the diet did the trick although statins are probably the right treatment for others.

 

[OraLabora]

n her case the diet did the trick although statins are probably the right treatment for others.

That’s the crux of the problem, doctors need to treat the patient, not the data. I’ve tried 3 statins with no luck. One of them, after a 20 km bike ride I was in such crippling pain I could barely make it back to my car. I’m used to riding rides up to 160 km and also in the mountains. That evening, I could hardly climb the stairs at home. Next day I went for blood tests and I had elevated CK levels (an enzyme that is the product of muscle degradation). The previous year I had a blood test after a 90 km ride, and my CK levels were normal (I wasn’t taking a statin). Most recently, I took one for a week and by the end of the week I was so short of breath I knocked 4 km/h off my average speed on my bike trainer, and I had chest pain and lethargy; 48 hours after cutting out the statin, I was back to normal and riding my bike in the hills.

Yes, some with gender dysphoria are deeply unhappy in their birth gender. And some have a change of mind after transitioning and are deeply unhappy with the transition and regret having had it done.

There are also a number who have been much happier since their transition. Doctors need to consider each individual patient on their own merits. I do believe in a slow and conservative approach though to avoid the mistakes you point out.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I also think they need to be realistic about the patients physical body and how well transitioning will work. I’m 5’2 with big hips and small hands, I would be interested if all these Drs would give me a realistic idea of how well I would transition (overweight, prematurely aged teenage boy with beard), or tell me what I want to hear in order to get the money.

 

[Pup7]

My niece in law and I were talking about this yesterday. We agreed that there may be a genuine issue if you are born with both sets of reproductive organs (or even a partial set - REALLY rare, but it does happen). I can see if you have two sets of strong hormones basically battling for superiority that you may end up with serious confusion that is a medical issue and not just a mental health issue.

I feel sorry for people who live with the anguish any of this must cause - whether it’s mental illness (not a pejorative statement - the mind is an amazing and sometimes frightening thing) or something more. But the folks quoting suicide statistics and general dissatisfaction with the outcome are providing correct information. It’s the one issue I struggle with in the military, because regardless of the naysayers, it IS a readiness issue, and given our current numbers, it doesn’t matter how small the percentage is. I’m glad the rules have changed and am now just sitting back and waiting for the fallout. Because we all know it’s coming.

 

[Pup7]

ConfusedLucy:

n her case the diet did the trick although statins are probably the right treatment for others.

That’s the crux of the problem, doctors need to treat the patient, not the data. I’ve tried 3 statins with no luck. One of them, after a 20 km bike ride I was in such crippling pain I could barely make it back to my car. I’m used to riding rides up to 160 km and also in the mountains. That evening, I could hardly climb the stairs at home. Next day I went for blood tests and I had elevated CK levels (an enzyme that is the product of muscle degradation). The previous year I had a blood test after a 90 km ride, and my CK levels were normal (I wasn’t taking a statin). Most recently, I took one for a week and by the end of the week I was so short of breath I knocked 4 km/h off my average speed on my bike trainer, and I had chest pain and lethargy; 48 hours after cutting out the statin, I was back to normal and riding my bike in the hills.

Potentially dangerous rhabdomyolosis - the breakdown of muscle - is a known side effect of statin use, and is quite common at higher doses (40mg and up). Folks can also be prone to it. I don’t know that it’s necessarily the crux of the problem because you won’t know you’re prone until you take it.

Docs and providers on the whole make every effort to treat the patient and not statistics. If ConfusedLucy’s friend had other information in her medical record - or her numbers were outrageously high - the provider might have felt that lifestyle changes would have a nominal effect. Maybe he knows she struggles with compliance or she’d tried to institute changes in the past with no success. Only the provider knows the answer.

My husband was just put on a statin - he’s active, eats decently, is probably about five pounds overweight, is within striking distance of 50, with a family history riddled with heart disease and a father who had two strokes before his death several years ago. His numbers were off the Richter scale and surprised both of us and the MD. I have a friend who is 49 and an active duty bomber pilot who had a double bypass last year. This guy runs about a seven minute mile and can do one armed pushups. He’s not built like a bodybuilder by far but I’d hate to meet him in a dark alley. He’s just tall (he’s too tall to fly fighters) and in REALLY good shape…but he has this cardiac problem.

Crap genetics are something only a statin will help.

 

[OraLabora]

Crap genetics are something only a statin will help.

No doubt for some. For me crap genetics means I can’t take a statin, unless I give up cycling, and I’d rather have my right arm chopped off than giving up cycling. I’m diabetic (more lousy genetics), and the cycling, and mountain trekking in winter, help keep that under control with a modest dose of meds only (no insulin). On top of that the statins made my sugar numbers worse! As I get older (60 in June) I realize more and more what a delicate balance the human body is.

After three failed attempts at statins, it’s time to tell my doc (who isn’t my wife, LOL, but he’s a colleague) to stop trying and start looking for another solution. My LDL numbers are borderline for a non-diabetic but apparently the protocol now is to put all diabetics on a statin.

When I had my bad reaction two years ago, and my wife saw my lab numbers the next day, she said to stop taking it immediately. My CK was elevated and the pain intense, on the minimum dose, and after only 20 km of cycling (12 miles). I’m used to rides of up to 160 km (100 miles) and rides at least 100 km (62 miles) and 1000 meters (3300 ft) of elevation change are routine for me.

Getting back to the orignal topic, I have seen pics of transgendered interviewed by the media, of people who clearly had a very feminine morphology to begin with. These women would clearly have been out of place as men. It’s clear to me that even though that is a subjective assessment, accidents of nature do happen and it would be, IMHO, very wrong to try to force these women to live and function as men.

 

[Pup7]

Yep, that reaction rare, but it does happen. I’ve given my husband the whole lecture on what to look for in the event he’s in that minority.

The protocol is there to put all diabetics on a statin at a specific age because research has shown it’s more effective than just dietary changes in conjunction with insulin that lower the risk of sequelae such as neuropathy, among others. It’s also why most Type II’s get insulin now, at least initially. But no, they’re not always good for everyone.

I have multiple issues with transgender surgery, and I can’t help that.

 

[OraLabora]

I read one interview with a transgendered woman (a local Quebec actress) who was very feminine, but who chose not to have the surgery, otherwise presenting as female with hormones, clothing, makeup, mannerisms, etc. Even if she went back to being fully male she would no doubt be extremely effeminate.

I admit I have some issues with something as irreversible surgery as well. But ultimately there’s not much I can do about it

 

[ConfusedLucy]

With feminine looking men, I wonder does society make them feel like they are failures as men? Same with women that aren’t very feminine. It makes me a little uncomfortable.

 

[OraLabora]

As a male, I can say that there are many things that can cause men to lose their “man card” by other males of society.

Males are fundamentally insecure about our sexuality. But don’t say I said that. I will lose my “man card” LOL!

 

[StephieNorthCo]

That speaks to each case need be treated individually, which I think we are all in agreement on. Sometimes surgery is not necessary; sufficient relief comes via hormones only, as it kills the production of the opposing hormone, or keeps it balanced sufficiently. Sometimes full surgery is required. Even for those, there are still issues… the effects of the opposite hormone causing essentially irreparable damage. Think size and structure.

Note that for intersex, there may or may not be “external” signs, so some identifying in modern society as “transgender” may in fact be intersex. Fifty or a hundred years from now, there may be enough science and technology in place to make determination, or better yet, elimination of the problem commonplace.

Right now it’s a hodge-podge of people with fetishes, various mental issues, various physical issues and birth or developmental issues all mixed together. No wonder a person, trying to live as Christ would want is sorely confused.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I know quite a few men who have admitted their secret liking for a good chick flick. I think it should be embraced.

The trans movement is definitely an odd mix of different things.

 

[PetraG]

I was born intersex, had both female and male reproductive parts and also have a female brain. Even due to this, due to the male characteristics, my family treated me as male and would always refuse what the doctors said about my gender. Before I could speak, my parents had my female parts surgically removed, which I didn’t want but wasn’t given a choice. In 2007, I started to presenting as female and am a lot happier. Even though I present as female, my family still treats me as male.

A person who is born intersex truly has a physical ambiguity, though. It is not practical to go around giving everyone your life story, so choosing a single gender role is an option.

The Church holds that unambiguously having DNA and secondary sexual characteristics of one sex and yet presenting oneself as not belonging to that sex whatsoever because of a psychological disaffection with that part of oneself is a different matter, even if that disaffection has an organic origin unfortunately beyond the patient’s control.

Like other such problems that can be outside the control of the patient, as long as the patient is not demented it is not truthful to support their presentation of a false persona that they are more comfortable with.

I cannot find the passage, but there are patients who are essentially certain to harm themselves who can be treated with a surgery that would otherwise be mutilating and I have read decisions from those with authority in the Church saying these are permissible. The case was a man who repeatedly tried to remove his own external genetalia, an action that could obviously lead to his bleeding to death. It was deemed permissible to finish the surgery rather than trying to save the organs, because it was seen as the most likely way to end his attempts at self-harm.

 

[Chilo]

I don’t really know what to say, I’m at a loss. I’m just marking my place here. I have a very close friend of mine that I’m sure is trans (she hasn’t told me, but has other friends that call her “he”, and has another name she uses. I guess she assumes I don’t notice, who knows.) She means a lot to me and I pray for her, but this is an issue that…I’m at a loss, but of course the only thing I’m sure of is even if she does have surgery or tells me I’m still here friend, etc, even though I don’t want her to take that road.