Speculate how God was and is always here?

[wjp984]

I am wondering if this is even morally permissable to do. I don’t want to start thinking a bunch of heresies and stuff. However, after taking a class on the Cosmos it is very interesting the way everything in this universe came about with the Big Bang. Though that is not what is the most wierd to me. More so is the fact that our universe probably is one of millions of millions going back gazillions of years way befroe the Big Bang and that our universe will also evolve and allow for more universes to come about. None of this changes my faith in God as I think that God just allowed for all this to happen and made it so confusing an complex that humans will never figure it out.

However, is it alright to speculate that with all the laws of the universes and nature how God might always be there? Perhaps somewhere down the line a gazillion more universes in the future conditions were right for God to always be there and then be able to go back to the beginning of time and create time the way he wanted as well as granting us the opportunity for eternal life. I have not speculated on the issue of God always being there or dare I say created since I was a little kid. Though now I am wondering if it is morally permissable to think of such speculations after taking this class on the Cosmos. I know my human mind might only insult God by speculating in such a way since we can not possibly comprehend God in this life and we have faith. Though I don’t really think God would be upset since he wants us to think.

 

[Kepha15]

Let me first start by easing your worries a little bit. Don’t believe everything you hear.

If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that most college courses (especially philosophy) are extremely anti-God. The professors that teach those classes (and write the textbooks) come in with a pre-conceived worldview that God doesn’t exist, and therefore come up with extravagent theories to justify their already made-up minds.

There is not “probably” multiple universes in the cosmos. This is nothing but PURE speculation, and a great deal of philosophers completely reject the theory, because there is no way to prove or even support it. The only reason it exists is as a fallback for atheists who have no other way of explaining things. If you want more on this, I recommend just about anything by Dr. William Lane Craig, a well-known Christian philosopher who has written many books on the subject. Another book, easier to read, is Lee Strobel’s “A Case For a Creator”. This book will not answer every question that you have, but it will give you a great overview of both arguements and give a simple, straightforward analysis, plus it references a lot of other books (like Craig’s) for further reading.

As for your question about God existing eternally…you have to get yourself out of the mindset that God is limited by time. To God, our past, present and future exist as one, and he is neither contained in them nor limited by them. To explain it in a better way, God didn’t “exist for all of time”…God exists “transcendent of time”. In other words, God is THE necessary being…the one whose existence can only be described as “I am”. God is not caused…not explained…not dependant. He just simply is. God is not dependant on time, space or matter. He created them, and therefore is neither limited by them nor subject to their laws. Think about it. Why are the laws of the universe the way they are? You brought up the point about “perhaps the universe’s conditions made God’s existence possible”. This is sort of on track, but you’ve got it backward. It was God’s condition (absolute existence) that made the universe’s existence possible.

Everything we observe in the universe is cause and effect. Everything depends upon something else for it’s existence (for example, you depend on your mother…a black hole depends on a star…even the universe depends on a creation point). Because we know this to be true, the universe itself must be caused. But somewhere along the line, there must be absolute existence, or nothing at all could exist. As Christians, we believe God to be that absolute existence. This is why, when Moses asked God who he was…God simply replied “I am who am”. He is what is. He cannot be defined, named or limited by giving Himself a finite name. He showed His own infinite nature by telling Moses…and us all, that he simply “is”.

I hope that helps.

 

[mosher]

I am wondering if this is even morally permissable to do. I don’t want to start thinking a bunch of heresies and stuff. However, after taking a class on the Cosmos it is very interesting the way everything in this universe came about with the Big Bang. Though that is not what is the most wierd to me. More so is the fact that our universe probably is one of millions of millions going back gazillions of years way befroe the Big Bang and that our universe will also evolve and allow for more universes to come about. None of this changes my faith in God as I think that God just allowed for all this to happen and made it so confusing an complex that humans will never figure it out.

However, is it alright to speculate that with all the laws of the universes and nature how God might always be there? Perhaps somewhere down the line a gazillion more universes in the future conditions were right for God to always be there and then be able to go back to the beginning of time and create time the way he wanted as well as granting us the opportunity for eternal life. I have not speculated on the issue of God always being there or dare I say created since I was a little kid. Though now I am wondering if it is morally permissable to think of such speculations after taking this class on the Cosmos. I know my human mind might only insult God by speculating in such a way since we can not possibly comprehend God in this life and we have faith. Though I don’t really think God would be upset since he wants us to think.

Honestly I am having a hard time following your thought. But from what I can gather I can say that you can’t offend God by trying to understand Him and His nature and His relation to all things. However, one must be wary to remember that revealed truth trumps all speculation.

 

[wjp984]

Let me first start by easing your worries a little bit. Don’t believe everything you hear.

If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that most college courses (especially philosophy) are extremely anti-God. The professors that teach those classes (and write the textbooks) come in with a pre-conceived worldview that God doesn’t exist, and therefore come up with extravagent theories to justify their already made-up minds.

There is not “probably” multiple universes in the cosmos. This is nothing but PURE speculation, and a great deal of philosophers completely reject the theory, because there is no way to prove or even support it. The only reason it exists is as a fallback for atheists who have no other way of explaining things. If you want more on this, I recommend just about anything by Dr. William Lane Craig, a well-known Christian philosopher who has written many books on the subject. Another book, easier to read, is Lee Strobel’s “A Case For a Creator”. This book will not answer every question that you have, but it will give you a great overview of both arguements and give a simple, straightforward analysis, plus it references a lot of other books (like Craig’s) for further reading.

As for your question about God existing eternally…you have to get yourself out of the mindset that God is limited by time. To God, our past, present and future exist as one, and he is neither contained in them nor limited by them. To explain it in a better way, God didn’t “exist for all of time”…God exists “transcendent of time”. In other words, God is THE necessary being…the one whose existence can only be described as “I am”. God is not caused…not explained…not dependant. He just simply is. God is not dependant on time, space or matter. He created them, and therefore is neither limited by them nor subject to their laws. Think about it. Why are the laws of the universe the way they are? You brought up the point about “perhaps the universe’s conditions made God’s existence possible”. This is sort of on track, but you’ve got it backward. It was God’s condition (absolute existence) that made the universe’s existence possible.

Everything we observe in the universe is cause and effect. Everything depends upon something else for it’s existence (for example, you depend on your mother…a black hole depends on a star…even the universe depends on a creation point). Because we know this to be true, the universe itself must be caused. But somewhere along the line, there must be absolute existence, or nothing at all could exist. As Christians, we believe God to be that absolute existence. This is why, when Moses asked God who he was…God simply replied “I am who am”. He is what is. He cannot be defined, named or limited by giving Himself a finite name. He showed His own infinite nature by telling Moses…and us all, that he simply “is”.

I hope that helps.

as another poster mentioned I think my post was a little confusing and hard to follow but you did a really good job of answering it. I am very curious as to these people who say how there was a creator and the multiple universes theory is false. My professor claims that he is going to teach us the scientific data and evidence that the multuple universe theory is true in the next lecture. In fact he even mentioned that while believers are welcome to believe that a creator was responsible for the 1 in 10^229 random chance occurrence of our universe, he is going to show the athiests how they can beleive that there was no God based on this evidence. I have accepted and believed everything in the class but I am having a really hard time with this one. I even worte an e-mail to the professor on why I think the universe can be the way it is even if somehow evolutionary cosmology is proven true and how that still doesn’t rule out God’s existence. I don’t think he liked it too much but it probably was too long. In my opinion it is like the story of the Tower of Babel. Why would God let us disocver him. An omniscient God would ahve to know we would one day be intelligent enough to go into space and disocover deep into the cosmos. So God had to ake it complicated and complex enough so we can never understand it all. I say this class has strengthened my faith but it also caused more problems than ever.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello wjp,

Did you watch Stephen Hawking’s (?) three DVD “Cosmos”?

Are you talking about the part where Hawking talks about the Church vs. Galelao and belittles the Church for thinking that the universe was created at the time of Adam?

It sounds like possibly you are. If you are not, I appologize. If you have not seen it, see it.

Hawking does an awesome job at describing the Cosmos and possible scientific theorys. Hawking is a horrible Theologan. His adding the part about religion really detracted from what is a great scientific educational film.

God exists outside of physical time. Hawking does not understand this. God is Omni-Present to the whole of physical time which He created.

Can you grasp the idea that the whole of physical time, gazillions of years past and gazillions of years future flowed out into existance at the time of Adam, thousands of years ago?

Even Hawking believes that before the “big Bang”, empty space, and matter and energy existed. Before God created the universe, empty space, matter, energy and physical time (which is a measure of change between these physical things), did not exist. God created from nothing. Creation is not condensed matter exploding. Creation is bringing into existance from nothing that which did not exist before in any form.

It is great to wonder and discuss what God has created. Be careful not to try to make God out as a liar or incapable of bringing into existance from nothing a universe with infinite past and infinite future physical time.

Please visit: Creation

 

[Vincent]

However, is it alright to speculate that with all the laws of the universes and nature how God might always be there?

It’s ok to wonder.

And wondering brings us back to the question,

Why does anything exist, right here, right now?

We could pile up a gazillion universes into the future, into the past, in the present, or even posit an eternal universe(s). And still we would be left scratching our heads, because none of them have to *be *at all.

There must be a reality that is the sheer act of existing itself to explain why anything— universes, multiverses, or even the computer screen you are looking at— is in the act of “to be”, here and now.

Nothing can *be *unless there is a Reality that is Be- ing, itself.

Wonder can thus lead us back to God.

 

[Kepha15]

as another poster mentioned I think my post was a little confusing and hard to follow but you did a really good job of answering it. I am very curious as to these people who say how there was a creator and the multiple universes theory is false. My professor claims that he is going to teach us the scientific data and evidence that the multuple universe theory is true in the next lecture. In fact he even mentioned that while believers are welcome to believe that a creator was responsible for the 1 in 10^229 random chance occurrence of our universe, he is going to show the athiests how they can beleive that there was no God based on this evidence. I have accepted and believed everything in the class but I am having a really hard time with this one. I even worte an e-mail to the professor on why I think the universe can be the way it is even if somehow evolutionary cosmology is proven true and how that still doesn’t rule out God’s existence. I don’t think he liked it too much but it probably was too long. In my opinion it is like the story of the Tower of Babel. Why would God let us disocver him. An omniscient God would ahve to know we would one day be intelligent enough to go into space and disocover deep into the cosmos. So God had to ake it complicated and complex enough so we can never understand it all. I say this class has strengthened my faith but it also caused more problems than ever.

I caution you strongly to NOT take what your professor tells you in the next lecture at face value. Like I said, please read William Lane Craig. I believe there is even another thread somewhere on this board about his “Kalam Cosmological Arguement for the Existence of God”. Trust me, this guy is good. He will answer any question or objection you or your professor might have on the whole subject, and there has been no one able to discredit his arguements to date. He has destroyed many well-known atheists in formal debates, and he knows what he’s talking about.

Your professor cannot prove that the multiverse theory is correct. What he can do (and probably will do) is give you circumstantial evidence, sort of like “if the multiverse theory was true, then X would be true as well. Oh, look, X is true…therefore, the multiverse theory must also be true”. You have to be careful and look for these fallacies of logic, which a lot of atheists use to justify untrue beliefs.

And lastly, when he gives atheists “reason to believe, based on the evidence, that God doesn’t exist”, challenge him. Ask him the unanswerable question. “Why does something exist instead of nothing?” Even if you can explain every working of the universe down to the most minute detail, you can’t explain why it is there in the first place. Not without absolute existence. Not without God.

PLEASE read Craig. His books can explain things so much better than I can.

 

[Kepha15]

It’s ok to wonder.

And wondering brings us back to the question,

Why does anything exist, right here, right now?

We could pile up a gazillion universes into the future, into the past, in the present, or even posit an eternal universe(s). And still we would be left scratching our heads, because none of them have to *be *at all.

There must be a reality that is the sheer act of existing itself to explain why anything— universes, multiverses, or even the computer screen you are looking at— is in the act of “to be”, here and now.

Nothing can *be *unless there is a Reality that is Be- ing, itself.

Wonder can thus lead us back to God.

Very well said. I couldn’t agree more.

 

[wjp984]

I caution you strongly to NOT take what your professor tells you in the next lecture at face value. Like I said, please read William Lane Craig. I believe there is even another thread somewhere on this board about his “Kalam Cosmological Arguement for the Existence of God”. Trust me, this guy is good. He will answer any question or objection you or your professor might have on the whole subject, and there has been no one able to discredit his arguements to date. He has destroyed many well-known atheists in formal debates, and he knows what he’s talking about.

Your professor cannot prove that the multiverse theory is correct. What he can do (and probably will do) is give you circumstantial evidence, sort of like “if the multiverse theory was true, then X would be true as well. Oh, look, X is true…therefore, the multiverse theory must also be true”. You have to be careful and look for these fallacies of logic, which a lot of atheists use to justify untrue beliefs.

And lastly, when he gives atheists “reason to believe, based on the evidence, that God doesn’t exist”, challenge him. Ask him the unanswerable question. “Why does something exist instead of nothing?” Even if you can explain every working of the universe down to the most minute detail, you can’t explain why it is there in the first place. Not without absolute existence. Not without God.

PLEASE read Craig. His books can explain things so much better than I can.

Thanks for your advice. I started a new thread that is more specific. Oh, and by the way, I glance over parts of the deabte that Kraig had with Washington since it is posted on the internet. However, I mainly need an answer for evolutinary cosmology and that wasn’t in there from what I could see.