Speculation about the unfallen

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PRETERNATURAL GIFTS. Favors granted by God above and beyond the powers or capacities of the nature that receives them but not beyond those of all created nature. Such gifts perfect nature but do not carry it beyond the limits of created nature. They include three great privileges to which human beings have no title -infused knowledge, absence of concupiscence, and bodily immortality. Adam and Eve possessed these gifts before the Fall.

Pocket Catholic Dictionary - John A. Hardon, S.J.
 
JimG

Did you ever read C.S Lewis’s science fiction trilogy: “Out Of The Silent Planet”, “Perelandra”, and "That Hideous Strength”?

It has been a long time since I read these books, but I think they pick up on one theme that is similar to the *Starman * book that you mentioned. There is planet where the inhabitants never fell from grace, and they are in awe when they discover that God the Son has incarnated on the planet Earth.
 
Matt16_18 said:
JimG

Did you ever read C.S Lewis’s science fiction trilogy: “Out Of The Silent Planet”, “Perelandra”, and "That Hideous Strength”?

Yeah, this is what I mean. And in Perelandra, the Venusians were essentially human and not fallen. Is this possibility compatible with Church teaching? I believe the answer is yes.

If there were unfallen brethren, even if they were identically human, genetically and all, they would not children of Adam and Eve, so there is no problem as far as that is concerned.

And thanks for effort at explaining the relationship between grace, free will, etc. I appreciate it, but I’m afraid I’m just not curious about the details. I know I’m a sinner; I don’t have an illusions that my sinfulness was unavoidable–it’s my own fault and I know it; and I know I need God’s grace if I’m ever to escape. That much is enough for me.
 
It has been a long time since I read these books, but I think they pick up on one theme that is similar to the *Starman *book that you mentioned. There is planet where the inhabitants never fell from grace, and they are in awe when they discover that God the Son has incarnated on the planet Earth.
One of the reason’s Adam and Eve’s Sin has been called a “happy calamity”. We, as humans, were blessed to see the depth of God’s love in a way we may never have experienced otherwise.
 
Dr. Colossus:
The Church teaches that every human being has free will. But the will is not simply a matter of the mind. In order to will something, we must desire it with our entire mind, body, heart and soul. Simply changing our “mind” to will against sin will not change the rest of us. We have to discipline our hearts and bodies, and while this is occuring, we can and will still sin, through our own fault.
Fascinating discussion.

Your discussion of will here parallels what Jesus said was the greatest commandment, ie. to love God with all our hearts and souls and minds, and even went on to say in St. Matthew’s Gospel that that first commandment combined with “love your neighbor as yourself” are basis for all the law and prophets. That’s a pretty broad and heavy statement when you think about it.
Furthermore, you are right, it is simple to say but very difficult to accomplish. As Fr. John Corapi says when someone tells him they have nothing to confess, how about the first commandment? He says nobody ever gets past that one.

Part of what you touch on here, Racer X, is the doctrine that is so misunderstood (in my opinion) that seemingly came out of nowhere in Gaudium Et Spes and other documents of Vatican II, ie. that there are those that God gives Grace to, who have not heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ. In actuality, the early church fathers were wrestling back and forth on this issue right from the start, and concluded simultaneously that God would not condemn someone without voluntary fault, and there is no salvation outside the Church. The discussion all turns on this issue of free will and concupiscence.
I think you have the Catholic doctrine exact, as least as much as I understand it.

You will note the contrast to the Calvinist point of view, which I heard from a friend not long ago, from a Brethren congregation, to the effect that we are so hopelessly bound in sin that the Blood of Jesus covers us so that our sin cannot be seen by God and thus we are saved. We are chosen (predestined) to be saved because we would never seek it on our own.

I tend to see it this way. God opened up a window of temporality in the midst of eternity (some say Big Bang) in order for there to be a physical creature like us that would love Him freely for His own sake. Einstein noted that mass and energy do not cease to exist, just change form and re-configure in this physical universe. In a sense, the Garden of Eden was the portal, the cross-over, the communication point of the temporal with the eternal and not co-incidently was the place of Divine sustenance for Adam and Eve.
Time is only the measure of change, and change is only the moving from existence of form to the exstence of another form, with continuity of the matter/energy. That is to say death, or the discontinuance of a self-contained form or entity, is part of the cycle of temporality. Cycles within cycles. All of this is only perceived by that which has an eternal or linear character, ie. the human soul the source of our mind. Ultimately, the only thing that is linear in this cyclical temporal world, is the imprint of God, through revelation and incarnation, Jesus Christ, centre of history…
 
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Ghosty:
One of the reason’s Adam and Eve’s Sin has been called a “happy calamity”. We, as humans, were blessed to see the depth of God’s love in a way we may never have experienced otherwise.
I have never been able to comprehend the idea that God rewarded the sin of disobedience by gifting us with the Incarnation – that sin is the cause of the Incarnation. I am much more sympathetic to the Scotist position that Jesus would have incarnated in Paradise if Adam and Eve had never fallen.

I have a hard time praying the Exultet (“Oh happy fault, which gained for us so great a Redeemer!”). It strikes me very strange to thank God for Adam and Eve’s sinful disobedience.

Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
Romans 6:1
 
So then I don’t think it makes sense to speak of the “unfallen”, at least in the context of the temporal universe. I would would go as far as to agree with some who propose that the universe, all of physicality, all of temporality was created for the express purpose of giving humanity a context, a place to stand, as a physical temporal being with an eternal soul.
If you think about that love issue. When you fall madly in love with someone, as a teenager particularly, what is it that you fantasize about? Having the opportunity to prove that love to that person. At first, and in its purest form, it is a self-sacrificing love for the beloved. You would do anything for that person, at any cost to yourself.
That is a sampling, or a representation of that greater love that God has for us and that He desires that we return for Him. That is what Jesus was speaking of. It is the first commandment that Moses got from God on the top of the mountain.

But of necessity, to love God that much, in that self-sacrificing way, indeed, to love at all, we have to have that free will, or love is meaningless. Free will is contained in the essence and meaning of love. And this temporality is the condition required for love to exist.
God wants our love. He’s told us over and over. Jesus told us. Everything about our faith points to that one central fact. And what we celebrate in the mass is that ultimate act of love, God reaching right into the midst of the temporality He willed into existence just to create the conditions for love, reaching into it permanently and giving the ultimate in self-sacrificing love, His own life.

It is absolutely stunning and overpowering when you think about it.
So what happens had Adam and Eve not sinned? We would still be in that state of sustenance from God, loving Him as intended that we should, untouched by death, one foot in each camp so to speak.

Just my thoughts on the subject and some tangential subjects, perhaps incoherent.
 
This has gotten to be a very deep and interesting discussion, but I think the answer to Racer X’s original musing is actually quite simple.

Racer X said: The gist of them, though, seem to be that in a state of fallen nature I am not able to choose a sin-free life.

Have you ever heard the old saying, “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak”? We are able to choose to live a sin-free life – that’s the whole (Catholic) point. God wants us to make that choice, and with enough discipline and grace, we can do it – but as someone else in this thread said, it’s not our natural state, and not sinning requires a tremendous act of free will – that’s why it is so precious to God when we choose not to sin.

Knowing we’re sinners and accepting our guilt isn’t what God wants. He wants conversion and repentance. He wants us to become saints far more than we want it for ourselves.
 
Matt16_18: Humanity wasn’t rewarded, per se, but rather good was made out of evil, which is God’s way. All things can be turned to the greater good by God, and this only further glorifies God and God’s love. It’s not a matter of reward and punishment.

A parent shows their love by running into a burning building to save their child (I seem to be on a burning building kick tonight), and a child may not appreciate how much their parent is willing to sacrifice for them until that happens. The saving isn’t any kind of reward, but a natural act of love that is only fitting for the circumstance. The parent doesn’t care if the child has behaved badly, or even if they set the fire. A great show of affection is brought out of evil, and that’s the power of love, and therefore the power of God. As humans, we were able to even more deeply appreciate God’s love due to our fall. It seems to be in our nature to make the most out of darkness, a part of our nature I believe we inherited, however imperfectly, from God.
 
I have never read the C.S. Lewis SF trilogy. Guess it needs to go on my reading list.

If Adam and Even had not sinned, we would not have inherited original sin. But–any one of their descendents, any one of us, having free will, even without original sin, would still be capable of sinning at any time. Could the whole of humanity have gone through life with no sin? Doubtful.

JimG
 
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JimG:
I have never read the C.S. Lewis SF trilogy. Guess it needs to go on my reading list.
Definitely! 🙂

In the first book, Out of the Silent Planet, look for the passage where the visiting human tries to explain to the unfallen Martian that humans desire sexual intercourse independently of the intent to procreate. The Martian’s expression of his perplexity at this idea shows so clearly how twisted the human condition is. Lewis may not have been in formal union with Rome, but his beliefs were otherwise very Catholic.
 
Ghosty
  • Humanity wasn’t rewarded, per se, but rather good was made out of evil, which is God’s way.*
the crooked shall be made straight
Luke 3:5

I understand that God can make good come out of evil. But the Exultet seems to be saying something more, IMO.

*As humans, we were able to even more deeply appreciate God’s love due to our fall. *

I don’t believe this is true. It makes zero sense to me, just as the Exultet makes no sense to me. God purposely created us defective so that his only begotten Son could be murdered to make us perfect? Say what?
 
Racer X

And thanks for effort at explaining the relationship between grace, free will, etc. I appreciate it, but I’m afraid I’m just not curious about the details. I know I’m a sinner; I don’t have an illusions that my sinfulness was unavoidable–it’s my own fault and I know it; and I know I need God’s grace if I’m ever to escape. That much is enough for me.

That may be indeed enough for you, but could you witness to a Calvinist? Is your understanding of Catholic theology adequate to do your part in making disciples of all nations?

*… in Perelandra, the Venusians were essentially human and not fallen. Is this possibility compatible with Church teaching? I believe the answer is yes. *

I believe that the answer is no. This entire universe is in bondage to death because of sin. Death and decay touches every part of this universe – the stars are dying, the planets are dying, animals die, plants die - death has its icy hand on everything. Could there be intelligent life on other planets? Why not? But I believe that intelligent life would be intelligent in the way that dolphins and dogs are intelligent. And these intelligent alien animals would still be subject to death and decay.

Now if you were to ask if it is OK to speculate that a parallel physical universe exists where death does not dwell, I would say that you are saying nothing new. Genesis says that Adam and Eve were expelled from the terrestrial paradise, it does not say that terrestrial paradise was destroyed by their sin. Many saints believe that the terrestrial paradise still exists with her immortal plants and animals. The unfallen terrestrial paradise exists in a parallel universe, so to speak.
 
I don’t believe this is true. It makes zero sense to me, just as the Exultet makes no sense to me. God purposely created us defective so that his only begotten Son could be murdered to make us perfect? Say what?
God didn’t make us defective, we made ourselves defective. God simply took that defect to deeply show love for us. Love is, by its nature, self-sacrificing and selfless. There are other elements of love, but these two are everpresent. God took advantage of our mistake to demonstrate the depth of love God held for us. Perhaps there is some other way God would have shown us this sacrifice had we not fallen, but let’s not simply down play God’s love because of the background it was played out in. The Fall is not some proud moment, but it does bring us to a greater appreciation of God’s love. The same can be said of, say, the U.S. citizens bonding together after September 11, 2001.
 
Ghosty
  • Perhaps there is some other way God would have shown us this sacrifice had we not fallen, but let’s not simply down play God’s love because of the background it was played out in.*
The Incarnation was God’s plan from the beginning. If Adam and Eve had chosen obedience instead of disobedience, the Incarnation would have still occurred. God becoming one of us – that certainly shows the sacrificial character of God’s love!
  • The Fall is not some proud moment, but it does bring us to a greater appreciation of God’s love.*
I don’t believe that sin brings us to a greater appreciation of love. You might as well argue that adultery strengthens a marriage.
 
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Matt16_18:
… Many saints believe that the terrestrial paradise still exists with her immortal plants and animals. The unfallen terrestrial paradise exists in a parallel universe, so to speak.
Whoa, this hit me like a brick! Could you please tell which saints believed this? I would like to read their writings.
 
God becoming one of us – that certainly shows the sacrificial character of God’s love!
That’s no sacrifice if it is not done in a sacrificial way. God adding a human nature to Itself is not in and of itself a sacrifice. It was God dying for us in a painful, utterly humiliating and human way that was a sacrifice. “They treated me like a worm,” is a sacrifice. God went through the suffering because God loved us, and we see how much humiliation and pain God will suffer for us. Simply becoming human would not have this same meaning or effect.

The Incarnation, as we understand it, was so that God could become the eternal Passover Lamb. Had there not been sin, there would be no Passover, but rather other glories. The Incarnation was not described as a way for humanity to simply experience the presence of God; we had done that already in the Garden and at other times. The Messianic prophesies are clear that the Incarnation was most espescially for the Eternal Passover, for God to take on the suffering and sins of humanity in place of us. Without the Sin, we would not require the Passion, and the Passion would not have happened.

I think it’s important to distinguish between God’s plans and God’s intentions. God intended for humanity to remain pure, but God is eternal and saw the Fall, and therefore planned for the Incarnation. The Incarnation was not necessarily God’s *intention, *anymore than it was God’s intention that Israel should suffer at the hands of the Pharoah. I intend to make it to work on time, but I plan to have my cell phone ready in case my car breaks down. In fact, the entire basis of Catholic morality is based on this distinction.
 
I don’t believe that sin brings us to a greater appreciation of love. You might as well argue that adultery strengthens a marriage.
Then perhaps you’ve never seen a couple work through an affair only to realize how much they truly love eachother. This doesn’t mean that everyone should go out and commit adultery, but it does mean that great good can be found through the struggle through evil, a good that may never have been seen/appreciated before.

People never know how much strength they have until it’s tested in some way, and this testing often comes through a painful experience. I work as an EMT, and most people, including myself, would never know how commited I am to the care of other people until they saw me care for a sick or dying person. It is terrible that a person is sick, but it is wonderful that I can be committed to another’s wellbeing so selflessly, and it’s wonderful that I and others can see it and find joy in it. Look at how much we honor and appreciate the bravery of firemen, whos’ only job is combating pain and suffering. We see the best qualities of selfless humanity shine in their example, an example that would be non-existant without burning fires and destroyed homes.

One must never seek to push evil, but one can certainly rejoice in the good that grows in the face of evil.
 
Ghosty

One must never seek to push evil, but one can certainly rejoice in the good that grows in the face of evil.

I agree. I also believe that God desired that Adam and Eve would be obedient to His expressed will that they not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. I also believe that humanity would not have suffered any loss by Adam and Eve being obedient.

If one is confronted with a choice between obedience to God’s will, and disobedience to God’s will, the choice for obedience is always the best choice.
 
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