Speculation: Adam and Eve and venial sin?

[mpartyka]

Read this in another thread:

Not every sin is serious, deadly, MORTAL.

I think it’s safe to say that Adam and Eve’s eating from the tree of knowledge in the Garden constituted a mortal sin.

Question: Had Adam and Eve avoided mortally sinning in the Garden, but later had sinned venially in some way, would they have been similarly cut off from the grace of God, expelled from the Garden, and required salvation in some form (perhaps up to and including the death of a Messiah)?

–Mike

 

[Will_B]

Since all sin originated with the eating of fruit of the “Tree” which God had forbidden… What kind of sin could Adam and Eve have committed?

Pride came into play real fast as Adam then Eve played the blame Game… “Not my fault, the Woman you made for me gave me the fruit” … Then Eve blamed the Snake…

All other sins were to follow…

 

[cymonk]

Lots of what if’s could have happened all throughout history. But we can never know what would have happened had they not made that choice. Same as in our own lives.

 

[JohnDamian]

The lack of satisfaction of the clause of “Knowlege”; required in conjunction with “Consent” and “Gravity” nessecarily means that Adam and Eve were not commiting a Mortal sin.

Evidently; before they ate of the fruit of the knowlege of good and evil they did not have such knowlege in toto; ergo they were unable to satisfy all the elements required to constitute an act as a mortal sin.

 

[mpartyka]

The lack of satisfaction of the clause of “Knowlege”; required in conjunction with “Consent” and “Gravity” nessecarily means that Adam and Eve were not commiting a Mortal sin.

Evidently; before they ate of the fruit of the knowlege of good and evil they did not have such knowlege in toto; ergo they were unable to satisfy all the elements required to constitute an act as a mortal sin.

Doesn’t “knowledge” just mean “knowledge that it’s a sin”?

For example, let’s say a married woman goes up to a teenage boy who (through a miraculously sheltered life) has no knowledge of sex and says, “Come with me, and let’s go commit adultery together.” Does the boy actually have to know what actions constitute adultery to satisfy the “knowledge” requirement of a mortal sin, or has he simply had to have heard at some time the commandment, “Thou shalt not commit adultery”?

–Mike

 

[mpartyka]

Since all sin originated with the eating of fruit of the “Tree” which God had forbidden… What kind of sin could Adam and Eve have committed?

How about Adam’s getting hit on the head with a random falling fruit and saying, “Ow! Dagnabbit!”

Or maybe Eve’s picking fruit, falls out of the tree and lands on Adam, and Adam shouts, “Ow! Watch where you’re falling, moron!”

(Where does venial sin come from, anyway?)

–Mike

 

[JohnDamian]

Doesn’t “knowledge” just mean “knowledge that it’s a sin”?

For example, let’s say a married woman goes up to a teenage boy who (through a miraculously sheltered life) has no knowledge of sex and says, “Come with me, and let’s go commit adultery together.” Does the boy actually have to know what actions constitute adultery to satisfy the “knowledge” requirement of a mortal sin, or has he simply had to have heard at some time the commandment, “Thou shalt not commit adultery”?

It does mean that Knowlege that the ACT is a sin.

For example; in your example if the boy engaged in act’s he knows to be adultery; whilst having knowlege that adultery is a sin he would satisfy “knowlege” and “gravity”, and in your example “consent”. Therefore it would be a Mortal Sin.

However; if a Boy were to murder someone; having not heard the ten commandments; or having not understood them (perhaps they were told in another language; or he was very young). He could not satisfy the “knowlege” aspect of Mortal Sin.

Catechism 1859 & 1860 are particularily relevant.

 

[mpartyka]

However; if a Boy were to murder someone; having not heard the ten commandments; or having not understood them (perhaps they were told in another language; or he was very young). He could not satisfy the “knowlege” aspect of Mortal Sin.

Okay, but weren’t Adam and Eve told by God, “Do not eat of this tree”?

–Mike

 

[JohnDamian]

Okay, but weren’t Adam and Eve told by God, “Do not eat of this tree”?

–Mike

Yes.

But they did not have the knowlege of good and evil; so they did not know to disobey God was evil. It was only after they ate the tree of the fruit of the knowlege of Good and Evil that they would be able to understand what they had done to be wrong; it then followed that they realised that they were naked and they became aware of what was Good and Evil; and hid.

 

[mpartyka]

But they did not have the knowlege of good and evil; so they did not know to disobey God was evil. It was only after they ate the tree of the fruit of the knowlege of Good and Evil that they would be able to understand what they had done to be wrong; it then followed that they realised that they were naked and they became aware of what was Good and Evil; and hid.

So if a parent tells a child, “Don’t stick your finger in the light socket, because it will kill you,” and the child does it anyway and dies, that’s still not a mortal sin? Besides, I thought the consequences of mortal sin were wrapped up in the act of disobedience, not in the outcome of the act. A Christian can deliberately steal a box of Bic pens from his/her workplace and totally get away with it, but it’s still a mortal sin, right?

–Mike

 

[JohnDamian]

So if a parent tells a child, “Don’t stick your finger in the light socket, because it will kill you,” and the child does it anyway and dies, that’s still not a mortal sin? Besides, I thought the consequences of mortal sin were wrapped up in the act of disobedience, not in the outcome of the act. A Christian can deliberately steal a box of Bic pens from his/her workplace and totally get away with it, but it’s still a mortal sin, right?

Yes…

A Mortal sin requires (according to the Catechism)

Gravity (Defined by the Ten Commandments)
Consent
Knowlege

It is only if all three of these are satisfied that a Mortal Sin occurs. If a Child sticks his finger into a light socket he has Disobeyed his parents (gravity), he has done so of his own free will (consent) therefore it is a mortal sin IF he has knowlege of what he is doing as Wrong.

Likewise; if I stole from my workplace; having full knowlege; but not having consent (I was being threatened) I would not have commited a Mortal Sin.

All three are required.

 

[mpartyka]

…it is a mortal sin IF he has knowlege of what he is doing as Wrong.

Isn’t “against the will of God” the definition of Wrong? So wouldn’t the fact that God told Adam and Eve, “Don’t do that,” be sufficient to make it Wrong?

–Mike

 

[JohnDamian]

Isn’t “against the will of God” the definition of Wrong? So wouldn’t the fact that God told Adam and Eve, “Don’t do that,” be sufficient to make it Wrong?

–Mike

Absolutely!!!

However; Adam and Eve did not have knowlege of Good and Evil; right and wrong otherwise they would not have had to eat the fruit and it would have had no effect!!!

Whilst it is easy for us who know that disobeying God is wrong to say so; we must understand that Adam and Eve in the tale did not have knowlege of Good and Evil; and were therefore incapable of knowlege and thus unable to sin mortally.

Their act was Wrong (tick)
They did it of their own free will (tick)
However – They did not know that what they were doing was evil. Because they had no knowlege of good and evil. SO; they did not have Knowlege.

 

[mpartyka]

They did not know that what they were doing was evil. Because they had no knowlege of good and evil. SO; they did not have Knowlege.

But (1) the definition of evil (or Wrong) is “against the will of God” and (2) they knew that eating of the tree was against the will of God. Thus they knew that eating of the tree was evil (or Wrong). So why are you saying they didn’t have knowledge that what they had chosen to do was Wrong? God told them it was Wrong when he told them, “Don’t do that.”

For example, if God appeared to you and said, “Today don’t pick up your toothbrush with your right hand” (assuming you are right-handed), wouldn’t it be Wrong for you to choose to pick up your toothbrush with your right hand today (even though the Wrong in this case wouldn’t be a Grave Wrong)? You wouldn’t have to know why God said, “Don’t do that.” You just need to know that He said, “Don’t do that.”

–Mike

 

[grannymh]

Basic Catholic teaching **regarding Adam and Original Sin **is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and its number in the Catechism’s search bar in link www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Entering topics, like Adam, is also very useful.

When you enter a paragraph number, like “paragraph 355”, and then click on the opening line, CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 355 you will see the following under the paragraph:

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[Ron_Conte]

Adam and Eve, before the Fall, had minds and hearts that were unclouded by original sin and personal sin, so they could not be mistaken about what they knew.
newadvent.org/summa/1094.htm#article4

Therefore, in my opinion, they could not have committed a grave sin without it also being an actual mortal sin because they always had full knowledge and full consent. But any venial sin would have the grave consequence of the loss of the state of innocence. And so any first sin committed by Adam or Eve would be an actual mortal sin.