Sperm analysis

[nlm]

The object of the act is sexual pleasure. That was my whole point.

You seem to insist on conflating object and intent because that gross simplification of the act appeals to your self-styled “commonsensical” view that there’s nothing remotely objectionable going on here. But, if we break down your position to its component parts, what we find is the simple maxim, “Evil ends justify good means.” That’s the core of your opinion, and that position is, of course, anathema to any person of good conscience.

We could not see this had we not approached this complex moral question with the complex analysis it demands. More evil has been done in this world by the idea that the moral law (an absolute) can be perceived best through the application of simple common sense (a wildly variable, culturally relative term) than the Devil could ever hope to do. If you’re not willing to treat a theological question theologically (or, as I should have said earlier, an ethical question ethically), well… that’s a crying shame for me, because I was enjoying myself. I was still hoping you’d come up with a clever rebuttal, prove yourself right, and I could say my happy goodbyes to the perforated condom approach.

I gave you the largest possible benefit of the doubt here, nlm, but ultimately lizanne is right. Although your questioning provoked some interesting and enlightening exploration of just what is signified by the word “masturbation,” I see no sound theological “loophole” to be had here. If someone finds one, terrific, but for now it seems to be a closed case. The question is, finally, one of obedience to Christ. You can either trust the Church He leads and treat complex moral problems with the seriousness they warrant, or trust your own culturally contingent, historically variable common sense.

Just keep in mind that a hundred years ago, “common sense” would have called you morally depraved simply for raising the question.

Does that make sense? I’ve gone rather off-topic from the immediate question of sperm analysis to a general indictment of common sense as unerring moral compass.

Let me ask you this. If you were diagnosed with a very serious infection of the prostate and seminal vesicals and the doctor told you that in order to select the correct form of treatment or antibiotic he needed to do an analysis of your semen would you provide it? You would probably be in a great deal of discomfort due to the infection. Do you honestly believe that providing that specimen could be seen as " for pleasure" ?NLM

 

[lizaanne]

Let me ask you this. If you were diagnosed with a very serious infection of the prostate and seminal vesicals and the doctor told you that in order to select the correct form of treatment or antibiotic he needed to do an analysis of your semen would you provide it? You would probably be in a great deal of discomfort due to the infection. Do you honestly believe that providing that specimen could be seen as " for pleasure" ?

Aside from electric stimulation or needle, tell me of a way that a man can achieve a semen specimen through masturbation with NO pleasure involved.

I honestly can’t see why this is so difficult. Masturbation is not allowed. Period. It is spelled out clearly in the CCC. Why in the world does everyone always have to try to find a way around the teachings of the Church so they can live life according to THEIR wishes, and not God’s will?

I will never understand that.

~Liza

 

[nlm]

Aside from electric stimulation or needle, tell me of a way that a man can achieve a semen specimen through masturbation with NO pleasure involved.

I honestly can’t see why this is so difficult. Masturbation is not allowed. Period. It is spelled out clearly in the CCC. Why in the world does everyone always have to try to find a way around the teachings of the Church so they can live life according to THEIR wishes, and not God’s will?

I will never understand that.

~Liza

My comments were directed to those who insist on saying that producing a specimen for medical reasons is the same as producing semen for pleasure. In MY humble opinion they are NOT the same. Do you not understand motivation? One is motivated by lust the other by cooperating for medical reasons. One is his decision the other is a request for medical treatment. If anyone does not see the differences here then something is very wrong. I do not believe that God would not want us to participate fully with a physician in the caring for the body He has given us.You would want me to think that it is God’s will to ignore an illness in this way? Not my God.Producing a medical specimen is far from ," living life according to their wishes". No one "wishes"to be ill.NLM

 

[Newbie2]

Sexual organs are for the marital act.

…and for peeing accurately. Dual purpose, donchaknow.

 

[Rico_S]

Liza:

My name is Liza. Not Liz.

I am one of those people. I am infertile - but I know my limits. Pumping myself full of drugs to over stimulate my ovaries is NOT trying to figure out what’s wrong with me. Asking my husband to masturbate, committing a mortal sin, is not worth it to me just to satisfy my own selfish desire to have a child. Children are a gift from God, and we are not ENTITLED to that gift, it is given to us according to His will.

I am sorry you have this cross to carry.

In your ealier post that I quoted you said:

Selfishness knows no bounds. Even to the point of taking powerful drugs and sticking needles where they don’t belong.

The church doesn’t find either of these techniques immoral (correct me if I am wrong), yet you go ahead to conclude that undergoing these perfectly moral procedures is sinfully selfish. I think that is patently ridiculous. For Catholics, if our bodies are not working properly, I think it perfectly reasonable to try and diagnose and correct the problem, as long as treatment and diagnosis is not outside the moral code set forth by the church. Note, I am not defending masturbation here, but that wasn’t even mentioned in your original post.

I do agree with you that the desire to have children is so powerful, that I think it can become a selfish obsession. But wanting to get diagnosis and treatment for infertility does not necessarily make one selfish.

 

[Just_Lurking]

I’d just like to point out that the Catholic Church has not given any official ruling on any of these “borderline” cases, so all that anyone is left with is their own opinions.

In particular, there is no official document Catholic Church document authorizing the use of perforated condoms for any reason whatsoever, including medical testing.

 

[Newbie2]

I’d just like to point out that the Catholic Church has not given any official ruling on any of these “borderline” cases, so all that anyone is left with is their own opinions.
In particular, there is no official document Catholic Church document authorizing the use of perforated condoms for any reason whatsoever, including medical testing.

That’s not really accurate…I think it would be better to say that:

Catholics are expected, in cases where a teaching is not explicit or in the moral “grey” areas, to apply general moral principles to any particular case. It’s not simply a matter of using one’s own opinion, especially if that person is uninformed about general Catholic moral principles.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Catholics are expected, in cases where a teaching is not explicit or in the moral “grey” areas, to apply general moral principles to any particular case. It’s not simply a matter of using one’s own opinion, especially if that person is uninformed about general Catholic moral principles.

In this case, it would seem that 88% effective perforated condoms are just as intrinsically evil as 90% effective non-perforated condoms.

 

[Honus]

Sometimes I think a little common sense is required. Otherwise we risk becoming too legalistic like some of the jews at the time of Jesus. If a sample is required to diagnose/treat a medical issue, I don’t see the issue.

Somebody earlier in the thread asked about why would you do this if you were single. I could see a scenario where if a condition is left untreated, it could get worse. Why wouldn’t you want to treat it if you thought you might want to have kids down the road.

 

[CFI]

I don’t understand these quibbles. Masturbation is the only real way for sperm analysis.

 

[nlm]

Sometimes I think a little common sense is required. Otherwise we risk becoming too legalistic like some of the jews at the time of Jesus. If a sample is required to diagnose/treat a medical issue, I don’t see the issue.

Somebody earlier in the thread asked about why would you do this if you were single. I could see a scenario where if a condition is left untreated, it could get worse. Why wouldn’t you want to treat it if you thought you might want to have kids down the road.

Finally a bit of common sense. Thank you NLM

 

[nlm]

I don’t understand these quibbles. Masturbation is the only real way for sperm analysis.

You are exactly correct. In over 30 yeras in healthcare I have NEVER seen a semen specimen collected via a needle in the spermatic ducts. This would not produce a proper specimen. Masturbation is THE proper method of acquiring a sample which can then be examined.NLM

 

[Just_Lurking]

Sometimes I think a little common sense is required.

You’re treading a slippery slope. A little common sense can lead to even more common sense, like allowing a husband whose wife will die if she gets pregnant to use condoms.

 

[tjm190]

You’re treading a slippery slope. A little common sense can lead to even more common sense, like allowing a husband whose wife will die if she gets pregnant to use condoms.

And before too long, we’ll be stuck with a logical belief system.

 

[nlm]

You’re treading a slippery slope. A little common sense can lead to even more common sense, like allowing a husband whose wife will die if she gets pregnant to use condoms.

Are you saying that under those conditions this couple could not use a form of birthcontol?NLM

 

[nlm]

And before too long, we’ll be stuck with a logical belief system.

What is wrong with a little bit of logical. That was the problem with the jews, it was all law and no logic. Even Jesus Himself used a large measure of logic. When He was criticised for healing on the Sabbath LOGIC was the basis for His answer to His critics was it not?NLM

 

[Just_Lurking]

Are you saying that under those conditions this couple could not use a form of birthcontol?NLM

Contraception is intrinsically evil, meaning there are no circumstances at all that ever justify its use.

The couple could use Natural Family Planning (i.e., monitoring the female cycle and avoiding all forms of sexual activity during times that are possibly fertile), assuming the woman’s cycles were such that NFP is reliable.

 

[nlm]

Contraception is intrinsically evil, meaning there are no circumstances at all that ever justify its use.

The couple could use Natural Family Planning (i.e., monitoring the female cycle and avoiding all forms of sexual activity during times that are possibly fertile), assuming the woman’s cycles were such that NFP is reliable.

And for the women who do not have a reliable cycle?NLM

 

[Bluegoat]

And for the women who do not have a reliable cycle?NLM

She would likely have to be abstinent, just like couples faced with this situation 1000 years ago were, or single people are today.

 

[CFI]

Originally Posted by CFI: I don’t understand these quibbles. Masturbation is the only real way for sperm analysis.

You are exactly correct. In over 30 yeras in healthcare I have NEVER seen a semen specimen collected via a needle in the spermatic ducts. This would not produce a proper specimen. Masturbation is THE proper method of acquiring a sample which can then be examined.NLM

Masturbation is the proper method of acquiring a sample which can then be examined. So, in this case, masturbation is morally acceptable as part of analysis.