Spin-off: the practicalities of implementing the TLR in your diocese

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I am taking the liberty of copying and pasting JReducation’s post in the “Democracy” thread…
JReducation said:
Since I started this thread, I’m going to take the liberty of shifting it in a slightly different direction. Those who would like to stay are welcome to do so. I believe that we have beaten this horse to a pulp. I’m referring to the strengths of the TLM over the NO. Let’s bite into some issues that have to do with the practical. I’m going to begin with a few simple questions that all of us need to answer for ourselves, just to make sure that we understand the pragmatics of implementing the TLM.

Please understand that I’m not building a case against the TLM. I’m building a case for cooperation and charity.
  1. Does everyone realize that implementing the TLM in every parish can cause a great inconvenience not only to pastors but to bishops too?
  2. Are we aware that not only must the bishops agree to implement the TLM in every parish, but religious superiors as well?
  3. Do we understand the difference between a secular priest and a religious priest?
  4. Have we kept in mind that in the USA there are more religious priests than secular priests?
  5. Do we know that religious do not have to run parishes if they do not want to do so?
  6. Are we aware that religious need permission of the bishop to operate in his diocese and they run those parishes according to his policies?
  7. Does everyone know that religious do owe obedience to the bishop only in matters pertaining to the ministry that they perform in his name, but they can choose not to perform this ministry as long as their superior approves?
  8. Do we know that a bishop is not the authority in an Order of Pontifical Right?
  9. Are we keeping in mind that if a conflict develops within a religious community over the TLM the superior can decided to end the conflict by surrendering the parish back to the bishop?
  10. Do we understand how catastrophic it can be for a parish for a religious order to suddenly abandon it?
  11. How many of us are aware that a bishop cannot force a religious order to run a parish for him?
  12. Has anyone noticed that religious orders are getting many more vocations than dioceses are, with some exceptions?
  13. Does everyone know that some religious orders are now limiting the number of men that they will allow to become priests? In other words, once a man takes solemn vows or perpetual vows, he is stuck in the religious order and may never be ordained, if the superior decides against it.
  14. Have we taken inventory of the number of parishes that make up a diocese and there would have to be at least one priest willing to celebrate a TLM for each parish and we many not have those numbers, especially if we count the number of parishes in the USA and other ministries in which priests are engaged, such as teaching, hospital work, military, youth ministry, social service, administration and other?
  15. Is it fair to place demands on bishops and religious superiors to have a TLM in every parish when this may cause division among the priests or religious or should we be willing to compromise and settle for some parishes?
  16. Do we want to cause division among religious communities or among secular priests? Is it fair?
  17. Should we be more patient and let things evolve to where we want to go and let the Holy Spirit be God instead of us trying to do his job?
  18. Can we state what we want to religious superiors and bishops, with humility and accept that they are doing the best they can with the resources that they have?
  19. In the case of religious, do we know the difference between a congregation, an order and an apostolic society?
  20. In the case of religious, are we aware that most orders are not clerical, even though they have many priests, but they are fraternal?
  21. Do we understand that the bishop must negotiate with the religious, if he does not have enough secular priests to run his parishes?
  22. Are we aware that in the USA there are many immigrant Catholics who want to hold on to mass in their language, especially Hispanics?
  23. How would taking away a Spanish language mass to replace it with TLM appear to Hispanic Catholics who make up one of the largest Catholic groups in the USA?
  24. How do we handle ethnic issues, religious order, congregations, apostolic societies and the shortage of secular priests and introduce TLM in every parish in the USA, without internal conflict?
Thanks for thinking through this.

JR 🙂
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These are some excellent points.

What do you think it will take to get the TLM more available in your diocese?
 
  1. Are a good number of these problems evidence of the absolute disaster that occurred in the early 1970s? In 1978 a new Pope had a chance to change things in a way that was practical and implementable. One died before he had a chance and his successor did nothing.
  2. Do we know that in addition to any practical matters, there is a pronounced opposition to the TLM on the part of many bishops?
    I know of diocesan priests that are being stonewalled from saying the TLM. Bishops are simply putting pressure on pastors and pastors are using the new talking points, “Nobody is interested” In some cases, they aren’t interested because they don’t even know about it.
 
I’m sorry, but this doesn’t look like practicalities to me, and I’m quite confused as to why there is an emphasis on the differences between diocese and religious orders. A more universal adoption of the EF would mean that religious orders and diocese would be effected just as the introduction of the OF effected not just orders, but other liturgical expressions as well.

If the TLM was to be universally adopted, there would be three major concerns; training of priests, education of the laity, physical implements.

These are legitimate concerns, but they aren’t whats at the heart of the matter. Having two expressions for the same rite will bring about a deeper understanding of mass and I think the fruits of this challenge will be great. Practicalities aren’t something to be concerned about, our understanding of liturgy is what is imperative.
 
GerardP said:
  1. Do we know that in addition to any practical matters, there is a pronounced opposition to the TLM on the part of many bishops?
    I know of diocesan priests that are being stonewalled from saying the TLM. Bishops are simply putting pressure on pastors and pastors are using the new talking points, “Nobody is interested” In some cases, they aren’t interested because they don’t even know about it.
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As seen by some of the ‘opinions’ voiced here there can be very valid reasons to not foster the TLM,
 
Patience, friends. Things don’t happen at the Vatican overnight. First, it is unfair to say that JP2 did nothing to improve things. It is the JP2 generation, instilled with his spirit, that is flocking to the TLMs and working towards orthodoxy and unity. He was left with mass confusion in 1979, and moved us very far for as short a period as a quarter century. He issued Ecclesia Dei, set up the Ecclesia Dei commission, seemed to be better appointing Bishops than Paul VI. He also essentially paved the way for Summorum Pontificum. Benedict has also moved quite quickly in a period less than three years long. F

ather Zuhlsdorf says that Benedict is using a Brick-by-brick approach to help us regain tradition. If he snapped his fingers and required that the TLM be at every parish as of tomorrow, more dissent and schism would brew in the Church. He is moving slow, and by grace of the Holy Ghost, his sucessor will continue this trend. In my opinion, we’ve come a long way in the past three years, and we ought to be thankful.

Mat.

P.S. What I’m waiting for is a Papal High Mass. Benedict’s first EF Mass will probably be a simple Pontifical High Mass, but the Pope’s TLM may eventually come back, even if decades from now. If ever I flicked on EWTN and saw one, I’d probably keel over and die from extreme happiness.
 
HOPEFUL_IN_UK said:
What do you think it will take to get the TLM more available in your diocese?
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Short answer is time, and a willingness on the part of those interested in the TLM to promote it to their friends.

Something else to think about:
Many here (including myself) have complained about how the changes in the the late 60’s were handled. How they were abrupt, arbitrary and didn’t give the people an opportunity to choose or adjust.

Now, however, the Holy Father has given broad permission rather than issuing a requirement. Therefore, where there is a stong enough desire, the bishop will be forced to act.
Plus there won’t be a feeling among the faithful of having something forced on them that they don’t want.

Now I have seen at the TLM’s people of every age. Families raising their children to love the TLM. As more people become exposed, as more people come to understand the beauty and functionality of each form (OF and EF) the desire among the faithful will grow.

It simply requires a continuing desire and patience on our part to promote the EF in a loving and charitable manner.

There really aren’t any practical or liturgical issues that cannot be overcome in time.

Peace
James
 
Practicalities or no practicalities, here’s some news worth sharing from a web page hosted by Mater Dei Latin Mass Community. Instead of getting all hung up about practicalities, they are asking us to pray! 🙂

web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/newchurchesadded.htm#new

To quote from the website:

"We are presently aware of serious negotiations to establish possible future “Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite” Latin Masses at the following locations. Mass times and start date have not yet been established.
(These locations are not included in our listing of regularly scheduled events)

California
Ripon
St. Patrick Church

Illinois
Quincy
St. Rose of Lima

Louisiana
Gibson
Blessed Sacrement

Massachusetts
Boston
Holy Trinity

Missouri
Carthage
St. Ann Parish

Missouri
St. Charles
St. Elizabeth Ann Seton Parish

Missouri
Willow Springs
Sacred Heart Parish

North Dakota
Walhalla
St. Boneface

Ohio
Berea
St. Adelbert Church

Pray for successful conclusions"

…
…
…
 
I think prayer, time, and tact will be needed.

In my opinion:
If you want the TLM, find others who feel the same way and nicely ask a priest you know if they’re interested. Maybe they are. Ask them if they know a priest who might be interested. Be really nice about it. Remember that the priest has devoted his life to be available to you and your various needs. Show some gratitude. And, if he’s not able to give you what you want, don’t assume he’s an irreverent hater of Jesus.

What you don’t want to do is come across as one of the nutters who thinks the N.O. is invalid or whatever. It’s those people who, with their ruckus and rebellion, who have made some bishops paranoid and unsympathetic over the years.

One problem, I think, is that to find a group of people who want the TLM is difficult, unless you’re already attending one. And, if you’re attending one, you’ve either already got what you want OR you may be attending SSPX masses. And, I suspect that there are some people in the SSPX who would actively discourage one from going about things in the polite, patient, legitimate way. (I said “some” people, and I’ve already run across some of those, so don’t have a hissy.:rolleyes: )
 
HOPEFUL_IN_UK said:
I think prayer, time, and tact will be needed.

In my opinion:
If you want the TLM, find others who feel the same way and nicely ask a priest you know if they’re interested. Maybe they are. Ask them if they know a priest who might be interested. Be really nice about it. Remember that the priest has devoted his life to be available to you and your various needs. Show some gratitude. And, if he’s not able to give you what you want, don’t assume he’s an irreverent hater of Jesus.
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Very well said. The more Christian our attitudes are, (along with persistance) the more success we will meet with.
In addition to your ideas above I would add one.
If you are unable find a “ready made” group in your parish, politely ask if you can run a seminar at your parish to aquaint people with the EF. Run a notice in the parish bulletin. There are videos available, and places on the web where you can download or purchase materials that would be helpful. If only a few people show up it would still be a start.
What you don’t want to do is come across as one of the nutters who thinks the N.O. is invalid or whatever. It’s those people who, with their ruckus and rebellion, who have made some bishops paranoid and unsympathetic over the years.
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In my opinion this may be a bit harsh, but also true.
It is the “nutters” raising a “ruckus” that have essentially kept the TLM alive and “in the news” so to speak. If it hadn’t been for these people, the TLM would have long since become an unused relic.
Finally, you may be right that some Bishops are paranoid and unsympathetic due to the “ruckus and rebellion”, but some are just opposed due to their own more liberal leanings. Bishops, like the Church herself, run the Gammut from conservative to liberal.
One problem, I think, is that to find a group of people who want the TLM is difficult, unless you’re already attending one. And, if you’re attending one, you’ve either already got what you want OR you may be attending SSPX masses. And, I suspect that there are some people in the SSPX who would actively discourage one from going about things in the polite, patient, legitimate way. (I said “some” people, and I’ve already run across some of those, so don’t have a hissy.:rolleyes: )
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Much of what you say ther is quite valid.
Part of the problem is education. Now that the TLM has become the EF with full endorsement by the Holy Father, it is up to those who love the EF to promote it. Through attendance certainly, but also through a loving encouragement of others. Simple exposure to the EF will gain a certain additional percentage of “converts”; people who will be captivated by it.

At present I fear that too many people simply equate the TLM with the SSPX and either have not had, or have not taken the opportunity to experiance it as a valid rite within the Church.

Peace
James
 
As seen by some of the ‘opinions’ voiced here there can be very valid reasons to not foster the TLM…

…actually, many of the opinions seen ‘here’, if by here you mean this thread, are reasonable and highly nuanced, indicating thought and discretion in their formulation…as opposed to ‘bash and run’ tactics belittling opposing viewpints…
 
Patience, friends. Things don’t happen at the Vatican overnight. First, it is unfair to say that JP2 did nothing to improve things.
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Here here. Ordinatio Sacerdotalis really opened the veins of the progressivist-nonsense movement. They are still around of course making anemic attempts to question the authoritative depth of OS, but they are looking paler and paler as they bleed out. Time is most decidedly not on their side.
 
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