spinoffs

[Shaolen]

Which modern protestant groups spun off from Luther, which ones from calvin, and which ones came from Zwingli?

 

[ahs]

The folks at St. Charles Borromeo have some great resources. Hopefully this will load for you:

scborromeo.org/truth/figure1.pdf

 

[DavidFilmer]

Most protestant faiths are a mix of theological systems, often with the inclusion of the ideas of the person who invented each particular faith.

For example, the chart that ahs posted shows the pentecostal churches off to the side, but Charles Parham (the guy that invented the pentecostal movement with the whole “speaking in tongues” thing) was actually a Holiness minister. The Holiness movement came from John Wesley (same busy guy that invented Methodism), which came from Anglicanism (Wesley was an Anglican priest).

Anglicanism came directly from (“Roman”) Catholicism and was the invention of King Henry-8. For several decades the Anglican Church remained Catholic (in schism, but retaining valid Orders and seven valid Sacraments). But a guy named Thomas Cranmer came along with a lot of Calvinist ideas and tampered with Anglican Orders, which caused the Anglican Church to loose its Catholic character.

So pentecostals owe their heritage to Calvin AND Henry-8 AND Cranmer AND Wesley AND Parham, among many other influences. It’s usually complicated.

Here’s a site with a nice little summary for the origins of many faith communities:
truthforsaints.com/Christian_Denominations/Christian_Denominations.html

 

[Shaolen]

Great timeline! I was actually going to ask that. It shows Pentecostals as appearing out of thin air. I’m also surprised that it doesn’t have Mormons on it. Also no “Old Catholics”. It states that Nestorians go to present day. Any comment on this?

 

[DavidFilmer]

Great timeline! I was actually going to ask that. It shows Pentecostals as appearing out of thin air.

Well, you could make a case for that. Parham may have been a Holiness minister, but there’s not much Holiness theology in the pentecostal movement. One core belief of the Holiness movement (from which the name comes) is that we can achieve spiritual perfection while on earth. St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross (both Doctors of the Church) taught this LONG before Wesley came along. So it’s really a Catholic teaching. But you don’t find it in pentecostal churches.

I’m also surprised that it doesn’t have Mormons on it.

Joseph Smith was Christian, but most people don’t consider the Mormon church to be Christian (Smith didn’t).

Also no “Old Catholics”

Well, it can’t list everybody. No SSPX either. Same type of thing, just motivated by different Vatican Councils.

It states that Nestorians go to present day.

Yeah, I wondered about that also. Church of the East??? I dunno.

 

[Shaolen]

Another thing I noticed is it puts gnostics at AD 125 and I swear some of the bible authors were addressing gnosticism. Am I wrong

 

[DavidFilmer]

Another thing I noticed is it puts gnostics at AD 125 and I swear some of the bible authors were addressing gnosticism. Am I wrong

The so-called Gospel of Thomas could have been written within the Apostolic Age (perhaps as early as 80 AD). But, just as the Christian Church was around for decades before the Gospels were written, it is probable that there were Gnostic influences several decades before Thomas was written. But we have no record of it (which suggests that Gnostic influences, if present, were minor and not widespread).

 

[Shaolen]

I’ll try to see where I heard it and who said it but I can remember catholic answers apologists mentioning that John was responding largely to Gnosticism in his gospel

 

[thistle]

Great timeline! I was actually going to ask that. It shows Pentecostals as appearing out of thin air. I’m also surprised that it doesn’t have Mormons on it. Also no “Old Catholics”. It states that Nestorians go to present day. Any comment on this?

Mormons are not Christians.

 

[Errham]

Well, you could make a case for that. Parham may have been a Holiness minister, but there’s not much Holiness theology in the pentecostal movement. One core belief of the Holiness movement (from which the name comes) is that we can achieve spiritual perfection while on earth. St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross (both Doctors of the Church) taught this LONG before Wesley came along. So it’s really a Catholic teaching. But you don’t find it in pentecostal churches.

Actually, that’s a belief that predates them by quite a while. In the Eastern Churches we find it clearly defined by Palamas, and somewhat explained as early as Athanasius. The exact theological term for it is theosis, and although traditionally Catholic theologians have been wary of such Palamatian theology, with the growing respect for Palamas amongst modern Catholic theologians we’re seeing a big revitalization of his theology within the Church and many successful attempts to reconciliate it with contemporary Catholic theology. I think, as to whether the great Carmelites you mentioned developed this theology independently of the Eastern thinking, is quite a tough question, because as it has been said, it has a theological foothold in the Early Church and only the clear-cut definitions of it were laid out post-schism. I’ve even heard that Aquinas may have written about it, although I can’t quite recall the source on that one so take it with a grain of salt.

Joseph Smith was Christian, but most people don’t consider the Mormon church to be Christian (Smith didn’t).

I don’t think anyone has ever seriously considered Mormons to be Christians, except for the very uninformed.

Well, it can’t list everybody. No SSPX either. Same type of thing, just motivated by different Vatican Councils.

Well, there’s a bit of difference between the two. Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Church. So you can’t really be Catholic without believing in it. Vatican II did not (for the most part) deal with questions of dogma, more with interpreting it, making it much more open for debate than Vatican I.

Yeah, I wondered about that also. Church of the East??? I dunno.

Yes, this is almost certainly a reference to the Assyrian Church of the East. That being said, they themselves deny the label of “Nestorian”, and there’s some debate as to whether Nestorius himself even held the beliefs traditionally regarded as “Nestorianism”, but that’s a whole different story for a whole different day.

 

[ltwin]

Well, you could make a case for that. Parham may have been a Holiness minister, but there’s not much Holiness theology in the pentecostal movement. One core belief of the Holiness movement (from which the name comes) is that we can achieve spiritual perfection while on earth. St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross (both Doctors of the Church) taught this LONG before Wesley came along. So it’s really a Catholic teaching. But you don’t find it in pentecostal churches.

Actually there is still a lot of holiness theology in Pentecostalism. You have to look for it, specifically in the Wesleyan branch of the Pentecostal movement.