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Lasting_faith
Guest
How are we supposed to understand Sam. 1:28? If that is not spiritsm and black magic so what is?
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Mount_Carmel
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The Old Testament has many references to a long battle/tussle that went on between the precepts of the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenant, and the older traditions that included pagan gods, rituals and practices.
Saul’s servants found the necromancer with ease, this could indicate that she may have been well known in the community and that the practice of consulting the dead may have been a popular if not open form of religious or superstitious practice for many people in Israel at that time.
For it is a people that provoketh to wrath, and lying children, children that will not hear the law of God. - Isaiah 30:9
Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a provoking house: who have eyes to see, and see not: and ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a provoking house. - Ezekiel 12:2
Saul’s servants found the necromancer with ease, this could indicate that she may have been well known in the community and that the practice of consulting the dead may have been a popular if not open form of religious or superstitious practice for many people in Israel at that time.
For it is a people that provoketh to wrath, and lying children, children that will not hear the law of God. - Isaiah 30:9
Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a provoking house: who have eyes to see, and see not: and ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a provoking house. - Ezekiel 12:2
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
I think you mean 1 Samuel 28, where Saul consults the Witch of Endor.How are we supposed to understand Sam. 1:28? If that is not spiritsm and black magic so what is?
Note that Saul had already driven most such activity from the land or underground. It is necromancy and God reinforces the ban by the results He permits to this rash action.
I think there may be an implication that much of the witch’s activity was play acting. She seems appalled when it really works. This is still true today. Much of seances, Ouija boards etc is false, but they open a path for evil to enter one. I think the Texas protestors who chanted Hail should engage in some serious repentance and prayer. They may have opened themselves to trouble.
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Skadi
Guest
Saints are dead and yet Christians pray to them and attempt to contact them all the time. I know christians have claims to legitimize this but still.How are we supposed to understand Sam. 1:28? If that is not spiritsm and black magic so what is?
Also there are plenty of people who claim or believe in inborn supernatural powers, and if the man is made in gods image than who could have given these powers but him?
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NHInsider
Guest
no, the whole point of the Christian belief in the afterlife is that the saints are not dead. As Jesus asked, when challenged on this “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” But when we invoke the saints, what we ask is that they pray for us, not that they come visit with us or reveal to us things that we are not supposed to know (because we are properly confined by the restrictions of time).Saints are dead and yet Christians pray to them and attempt to contact them all the time. I know christians have claims to legitimize this but still.
Also there are plenty of people who claim or believe in inborn supernatural powers, and if the man is made in gods image than who could have given these powers but him?
And yes, I think the reaction of the Witch of Endor probably suggests that she was shocked and horrified when the spirit of Samuel actually appeared when summoned.
The Lord would not need to prohibit the practice of necromancy if it were just make-believe.
Sally
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Skadi
Guest
This is the one thing that so annoys me about christians responses here. You knew exactly what I meant, that their physical bodies have ceased to function and been worn away. You can’t call anyone dead on here without getting a lecture about how they are alive because they are in heaven. Their bodies are dead I’m obviously not talking about their souls.no, the whole point of the Christian belief in the afterlife is that the saints are not dead. As Jesus asked, when challenged on this “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” But when we invoke the saints, what we ask is that they pray for us, not that they come visit with us or reveal to us things that we are not supposed to know (because we are properly confined by the restrictions of time).
And yes, I think the reaction of the Witch of Endor probably suggests that she was shocked and horrified when the spirit of Samuel actually appeared when summoned.
The Lord would not need to prohibit the practice of necromancy if it were just make-believe.
Sally
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
The interesting thing about saints is that when their bodies are dug up they are almost always incorrupt - their corpses show no sign of decay.This is the one thing that so annoys me about christians responses here. You knew exactly what I meant, that their physical bodies have ceased to function and been worn away. You can’t call anyone dead on here without getting a lecture about how they are alive because they are in heaven. Their bodies are dead I’m obviously not talking about their souls.
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
It will make communication clearer if we all use the same definition of terms. Since this is a Catholic site, maybe you could humor us and use our definitions.This is the one thing that so annoys me about christians responses here. You knew exactly what I meant, that their physical bodies have ceased to function and been worn away. You can’t call anyone dead on here without getting a lecture about how they are alive because they are in heaven. Their bodies are dead I’m obviously not talking about their souls.
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Skadi
Guest
I’m actualy not aware of any religion that thinks a soul can actualy die (besides maybe Budhists reaching enlightenment and non existence). Even christians who claim hell is death confuse me. If ones soul is dead how can it experience hell? I don’t see how it could have been taken that way but it is your forum so I acquiesce.It will make communication clearer if we all use the same definition of terms. Since this is a Catholic site, maybe you could humor us and use our definitions.
Also, while there are a few cases of saints not showing much decay there are plenty of other ancient cases like this as well. Usualy people burried in bogs.
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NHInsider
Guest
And that’s different from Samuel’s body and soul how?This is the one thing that so annoys me about christians responses here. You knew exactly what I meant, that their physical bodies have ceased to function and been worn away. You can’t call anyone dead on here without getting a lecture about how they are alive because they are in heaven. Their bodies are dead I’m obviously not talking about their souls.
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NHInsider
Guest
Incorruption is not common, sainthood is (or should be). Canonization, remember, is the recognition of a saint and holding of that person up as a model/inspiration. Sainthood is the natural result of salvation, and as such is the eternal fate of all of us, if we remain in grace.The interesting thing about saints is that when their bodies are dug up they are almost always incorrupt - their corpses show no sign of decay.
Sally
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
I was responding about incorruption in the case of Samuel. He was not decayed when the witch raised him from the dead. Samuel was a very holy man in life, therefore in death he was incorrupt.Incorruption is not common, sainthood is (or should be). Canonization, remember, is the recognition of a saint and holding of that person up as a model/inspiration. Sainthood is the natural result of salvation, and as such is the eternal fate of all of us, if we remain in grace.
Sally
Incorruption IS common in saints. I don’t think there are very many saints, why do you?
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NHInsider
Guest
Every single Christian is called to sainthood. Everyone in heaven is a saint. Sainted or damned, those are our two options for eternity.I don’t think there are very many saints, why do you?
Sally
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Saints go straight to heaven, there are very few of them. Most people will go to Purgatory before they will be clean enough for heaven.Every single Christian is called to sainthood. Everyone in heaven is a saint. Sainted or damned, those are our two options for eternity.
Sally
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
I am not aware of any authoritative statements that canonized saints did not spend time in Purgatory. Canonization only certifies that they are in Heaven now.Saints go straight to heaven, there are very few of them. Most people will go to Purgatory before they will be clean enough for heaven.
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