Spiritual Death in Genesis not a possibility?

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thunderbolt94

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Hey everyone,

I recently watched a video where it talks about the ancient hebrew in the book of Genesis

youtu.be/4yyXJc_cepw

Why I don’t deny or dispute anything that is said in this video, it did make me curious when I read one of the comments that caught my attention and made me curious:

“I do think the serpent was deceptive, but he used the truth to be deceptive, not lies. Also, a couple of things about your post, not to nit pick, but I think they are important. First, no where in the Bible does it speak of a “spiritual death,” that is a very Greek concept that is foreign to the Hebrew mind. Secondly, nowhere does the Bible say the serpent is Satan, though many think it is, but I don’t.”

So my question is, what is the catholic teaching on the fall, and whether it was “spiritual” or not? How does that reconcile with the theory of evolution (which I accept and has been scientifically verified). If the fall wasn’t spiritual, how does the catholic church reconcile that with evolution?

So was the fall of man a spiritual death, or a physical death, and if it was a physical death, how do you reconcile that with catholic teaching today?
 
thunderbolt94 said:
Hey everyone,

I recently watched a video where it talks about the ancient hebrew in the book of Genesis

youtu.be/4yyXJc_cepw

Why I don’t deny or dispute anything that is said in this video, it did make me curious when I read one of the comments that caught my attention and made me curious:

“I do think the serpent was deceptive, but he used the truth to be deceptive, not lies. Also, a couple of things about your post, not to nit pick, but I think they are important. First, no where in the Bible does it speak of a “spiritual death,” that is a very Greek concept that is foreign to the Hebrew mind. Secondly, nowhere does the Bible say the serpent is Satan, though many think it is, but I don’t.”

So my question is, what is the catholic teaching on the fall, and whether it was “spiritual” or not? How does that reconcile with the theory of evolution (which I accept and has been scientifically verified). If the fall wasn’t spiritual, how does the catholic church reconcile that with evolution?

So was the fall of man a spiritual death, or a physical death, and if it was a physical death, how do you reconcile that with catholic teaching today?
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He said"you will not die".lie no.1.If I said the Serpent Is the deceitful one,or the fallen angel we know whom i speaking of .The bible does have to state precisely every word it uses to refer to someone or something.Again don’t interpret the bible literally.Spiritual death can be said in any number of ways and the message can be understood.Look at how many ways Christ is described.The chosen one,pascal lamb,the begottenSon,the Savior ,the Messiah,ect.
 
thunderbolt94 said:
First, no where in the Bible does it speak of a “spiritual death,”
Click to expand...
The definition of “spiritual death” is a separation from God. The “Old Testament” is chock full of such instances; one could argue that that is the main thrust of the OT: people dying spiritual deaths; God punishing but showing mercy; people repenting; repeat.

I’m currently dwelling in Ezekiel these days. What do you suppose was meant with the “Valley of Dry Bones” (Ezekiel 37)?

Like so many “terms” we have today to more easily label concepts; “spiritual death”; “trinity”; etc. don’t exist as that word or term in the Bible; but most certainly do exist as concepts.

Paul explains spiritual death extremely well in Romans. Paul is not a Greek; he is a Roman citizen; but first and foremost a Jew - from a long line of Pharisees.

I love our Jewish brothers, but this is one case where they have had to re-invent their history in order to deny the Christ. For without original sin; there is no need of redemption. Even if we took everything away: no Bible, no history, nothing external whatsoever; ask yourself: do I need redemption? Do you feel separated from God in some way.

For most of us, the answer is VERY simple.

Peace and Blessings.
-Carol
 
thunderbolt94 said:
…Why I don’t deny or dispute anything that is said in this video, it did make me curious when I read one of the comments that caught my attention and made me curious:

"I do think the serpent was deceptive, but he used the truth to be deceptive, not lies.
Click to expand...
Using the truth and distorting it is a favorite tactic of Satan. He used it to tempt Jesus in the desert — citing Scripture passages to Him. (Matthew 4)
Also, a couple of things about your post, not to nit pick, but I think they are important. First, no where in the Bible does it speak of a “spiritual death,” that is a very Greek concept that is foreign to the Hebrew mind.
Click to expand...
Greek philosophy (Plato and Aristotle) was indeed helpful in the development of Catholic doctrine regarding our souls. But there was also a vague concept already existing in the Old Testament. Do a word search on “soul”. Here are just a few verses:
Job 33:28-30 He has redeemed my soul from going down into the Pit, and my life shall see the light.’ "Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, to bring back his soul from the Pit, that he may see the light of life.

Psalms22:20-21 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog! Save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen!

Psalms 33:18-19 Behold, the eye of the LORD is on those who fear him, on those who hope in his steadfast love, that he may deliver their soul from death, and keep them alive in famine.

Psalms 49:14-15 Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; straight to the grave they descend, and their form shall waste away; Sheol shall be their home. But God will ransom my soul from the power of Sheol, for he will receive me.

Psalms 56:13 For thou hast*** delivered my soul from death***, yea, my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of life.

Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come to me; hear that your soul may live;
Secondly, nowhere does the Bible say the serpent is Satan, though many think it is, but I don’t."
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Revelation 20:1-2 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the** dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan**, and bound him for a thousand years,
 
Nelka said:
So you don’t believe Jesus Christ died for our sins?

If you do, you must take the Bible literally.
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The Catechism of the Catholic Church states

The senses of Scripture

115
According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral, and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116
The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

117
The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
  1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
  2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction."85
  3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86
118
A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:

The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87

119
"It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, toward a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgment. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgment of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88

But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.89
“Literal interpretation” is not remotely “black and white”. If it were, there would not be nearly the number of denominations we have.

In any case, the I read in the New Jerome Commentary that we are not, as Catholics required to believe the “serpent” in the garden in Genesis 3 is Satan. It light of Revelation, (but John could have just been referring to the ancient dragon as a serpent) and just the tactics used, it makes sense; but it is not necessary for our faith or to comprehend the Fall.

I’m not sure what exactly you’re saying here, Nelka, but hopefully I have helped somewhat to clarify the Catholic position on this.

As Catholics we are allowed to take all of Genesis as literally as we want (or not), but we must comprehend the *spiritual *significance of the Fall even if we choose to view it in just the spiritual (allegorical, moral & anagogical) sense.

-Carol
 
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