Spiritual death

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Phyllo

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Hi,
I understand spiritual death to be a separation from God(absence of God’s grace/love).

I also believe that one can suffer spiritual death while physically alive ? (absence of God’s love)Is my understanding correct or incorrect?

If one is suffering spiritual death and dies physically will their soul suffer purgatory or hell? Any thoughts on the subject.

My JW friend believes that one cannot live separated(spiritual death) from God because God is the source of all life… I believe that one can live without God’s love/grace while God still supports one’s life.

How can I explain to her that one can live in spiritual death or separation from God?
Or am I wrong on all counts?

Please help–anyone Thanks.
 
You’re right, she’s wrong.

Spiritually alive = sanctifying grace + charity + indwelling of the Trinity in your soul (among other things, but those are the most basic)

Spiritually dead = absence of those things (you can still have faith, and be spiritually dead)

Before baptism, one is spiritually dead. After mortal sin, one is spiritually dead.

If you die in mortal sin you go to hell.

(If you die before baptism, but without mortal sin, well, we don’t know what happens, but we know God doesn’t punish anyone eternally who is not guilty of deliberate sin – cf. Quanto Conficiamur 7 ff)

Not sure if this applies, but 1 Tim. 5:6 “For she that liveth in pleasures, is dead while she is living.” There are other scriptures which talk about mortal sin (see the CA tract on mortal sin).

FYI, I don’t think JW’s believe in hell. And their Bible is messed up.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
You’re right, she’s wrong.

Spiritually alive = sanctifying grace + charity + indwelling of the Trinity in your soul (among other things, but those are the most basic)

Spiritually dead = absence of those things (you can still have faith, and be spiritually dead)

Before baptism, one is spiritually dead. After mortal sin, one is spiritually dead.

If you die in mortal sin you go to hell.

(If you die before baptism, but without mortal sin, well, we don’t know what happens, but we know God doesn’t punish anyone eternally who is not guilty of deliberate sin – cf. Quanto Conficiamur 7 ff)

Not sure if this applies, but 1 Tim. 5:6 “For she that liveth in pleasures, is dead while she is living.” There are other scriptures which talk about mortal sin (see the CA tract on mortal sin).

FYI, I don’t think JW’s believe in hell. And their Bible is messed up.
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Thanks for the quote.
No they don’t believe in hell. They believe in annihilation. All through the NT Jesus talks about eternal damnation, eternal punishment but the JW’s believe that if you die in sin you are just annihilated. They do not believe in the immortal soul.

I know about the bible they wrote to match what they believe.
 
Phyllo said:
Hi,
I understand spiritual death to be a separation from God(absence of God’s grace/love).

I also believe that one can suffer spiritual death while physically alive ? (absence of God’s love)Is my understanding correct or incorrect?

If one is suffering spiritual death and dies physically will their soul suffer purgatory or hell? Any thoughts on the subject.

My JW friend believes that one cannot live separated(spiritual death) from God because God is the source of all life… I believe that one can live without God’s love/grace while God still supports one’s life.

How can I explain to her that one can live in spiritual death or separation from God?
Or am I wrong on all counts?

Please help–anyone Thanks.
Click to expand...
I think you’re essentially correct on all counts.

However, to explain this, you’d need to explain Catholic concepts of grace and sanctification to her, which would take a while. 🙂
 
RPRPsych said:
I think you’re essentially correct on all counts.

However, to explain this, you’d need to explain Catholic concepts of grace and sanctification to her, which would take a while. 🙂
Click to expand...
Yes it would take a while. She never lets me finish a thought without jumping in with a million questions. I think she does this to disrupt my train of thought.
She does have an inkling about grace but I will have to ask her what sanctification means to her. I don’t think we ever discussed this.
 
Phyllo said:
Hi,
I understand spiritual death to be a separation from God(absence of God’s grace/love). I also believe that one can suffer spiritual death while physically alive ? (absence of God’s love)Is my understanding correct or incorrect?
Click to expand...
Protestants often misquote Rom 8 when arguing for OSAS. They say “Nothing can seperate us from God”

Rom 8 actually says nothing can seperate us from the love of God

**Rom 8:**38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mortal sin seperates us from God. And has the potential of doing that permanently if we die in that sin. But sin even mortal sin, won’t seperate us from His love. therefore, If one dies in mortal sin, even in hell, God still loves that soul. It’s just that by one’s behavior (sin) they demonstrated they love sin more than GOD, even in death. So that condition of one’s rebellion, God eternalizes.
P:
If one is suffering spiritual death and dies physically will their soul suffer purgatory or hell? Any thoughts on the subject.
Click to expand...
If one dies physically, and their soul is in a state of mortal sin (spiritually dead), the body goes to the grave, the soul goes immediately to hell.
P:
My JW friend believes that one cannot live separated(spiritual death) from God because God is the source of all life… I believe that one can live without God’s love/grace while God still supports one’s life.

How can I explain to her that one can live in spiritual death or separation from God?
Or am I wrong on all counts?

Please help–anyone Thanks.
Click to expand...
The body is mortal, it lives and it dies.
The soul is immortal. Immortal = a beginning but no end.

Once created by God at our conception, the soul never dies. It doesn’t sleep. It lives forever. the question is where will that be? For the JW they have too many problems to even begin unraveling them in one post.

Our soul has 3 properties. Because the soul is immortal, so then these properties are immortal.
  • Memory, intellect, & will.
Once the soul is created by God, those properties of the soul last forever. That’s how a soul can experience fully the life to come…whether heaven (for eternity), purgatory (temporary state before heaven), or hell (for eternity).

Grace, i.e. supernatural love of God, is God’s free gift to the soul. Without grace we wouldn’t exist. Therefore, from our conception, God never stops loving us. We otoh can stop loving God. Gifts like grace, as we know, can be rejected by the one it is meant for. This life giving love can be destroyed by us the recipient…That happens when we choose to do grevious sin that God says to us, don’t do. Scripture gives lists of sins that if one dies in them one won’t go to heaven. To be sure that’s the definition of mortal sin

Mortal sin The soul is still alive but it is without sanctifying grace. Without sanctifying grace a soul can’t enter heaven. That soul will live forever, just not with God…i.e they will live forever in hell

Venial sin wounds that love but isn’t a mortal wound to love.

Re: the command to Love God, How does Jesus define love for Him?
So IOW for our love to be true, it is conditional on obeying the will of God.
 
steve_b said:
Protestants often misquote Rom 8 when arguing for OSAS. They say “Nothing can seperate us from God”

Rom 8 actually says nothing can seperate us from the love of God

**Rom 8:**38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mortal sin seperates us from God. And has the potential of doing that permanently if we die in that sin. But sin even mortal sin, won’t seperate us from His love. therefore, If one dies in mortal sin, even in hell, God still loves that soul. It’s just that by one’s behavior (sin) they demonstrated they love sin more than GOD, even in death. So that condition of one’s rebellion, God eternalizes.

If one dies physically, and their soul is in a state of mortal sin (spiritually dead), the body goes to the grave, the soul goes immediately to hell.

The body is mortal, it lives and it dies.
The soul is immortal. Immortal = a beginning but no end.

Once created by God at our conception, the soul never dies. It doesn’t sleep. It lives forever. the question is where will that be? For the JW they have too many problems to even begin unraveling them in one post.

Our soul has 3 properties. Because the soul is immortal, so then these properties are immortal.
  • Memory, intellect, & will.
Once the soul is created by God, those properties of the soul last forever. That’s how a soul can experience fully the life to come…whether heaven (for eternity), purgatory (temporary state before heaven), or hell (for eternity).

Grace, i.e. supernatural love of God, is God’s free gift to the soul. Without grace we wouldn’t exist. Therefore, from our conception, God never stops loving us. We otoh can stop loving God. Gifts like grace, as we know, can be rejected by the one it is meant for. This life giving love can be destroyed by us the recipient…That happens when we choose to do grevious sin that God says to us, don’t do. Scripture gives lists of sins that if one dies in them one won’t go to heaven. To be sure that’s the definition of mortal sin

Mortal sin The soul is still alive but it is without sanctifying grace. Without sanctifying grace a soul can’t enter heaven. That soul will live forever, just not with God…i.e they will live forever in hell

Venial sin wounds that love but isn’t a mortal wound to love.

Re: the command to Love God, How does Jesus define love for Him?
So IOW for our love to be true, it is conditional on obeying the will of God.
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Thanks for such a detailed response. It gives me something to study on.
God Bless
 
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It is entirely up to Jesus’ Love and Mercy, looking at each person’s Soul here on Earth during their journey. Jesus and His Child’s (Soul’s) communication and interaction after he/she dies, His Compassion over His Child’s situation and circumstances along with prayers of other people for all Sinners who have passed away.

That is my understanding from Jesus and Our Lady Mary Mother of Jesus through prayer.
 
steve_b said:
Our soul has 3 properties. Because the soul is immortal, so then these properties are immortal.
  • Memory, intellect, & will.
.
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Good post Steve.👍
Just a slight correction - or perhaps “addition” is a better word. The human soul has more properties than just those three. It also has all the properties of vegetative and animal souls. But it’s specifically the (spiritual) powers of intellect and will that differentiate it from the other two.
 
Phyllo said:
Hi,
I understand spiritual death to be a separation from God(absence of God’s grace/love).

I also believe that one can suffer spiritual death while physically alive ? (absence of God’s love)Is my understanding correct or incorrect?

If one is suffering spiritual death and dies physically will their soul suffer purgatory or hell? Any thoughts on the subject.

My JW friend believes that one cannot live separated(spiritual death) from God because God is the source of all life… I believe that one can live without God’s love/grace while God still supports one’s life.

How can I explain to her that one can live in spiritual death or separation from God?
Or am I wrong on all counts?

Please help–anyone Thanks.
Click to expand...
We’re “born dead”, separated from God, which is why we don’t have knowledge of/faith in Him even as soon as we’re mature enough to be capable of it. And this is why we need to be “born again” or “born from above”. And this begins with revelation and grace as we begin to believe in, hope/trust in, and ultimately to love God.
 
Phyllo said:
Hi,
I understand spiritual death to be a separation from God(absence of God’s grace/love).

I also believe that one can suffer spiritual death while physically alive ? (absence of God’s love)Is my understanding correct or incorrect?

If one is suffering spiritual death and dies physically will their soul suffer purgatory or hell? Any thoughts on the subject.

My JW friend believes that one cannot live separated(spiritual death) from God because God is the source of all life… I believe that one can live without God’s love/grace while God still supports one’s life.

How can I explain to her that one can live in spiritual death or separation from God?
Or am I wrong on all counts?

Please help–anyone Thanks.
Click to expand...
Your JW friend said that there is no life at all if spiritually dead.

If that is the case, then why are all the catholics still alive, if in his opinion they are all spiritually dead?

Just an observation.​

“Let your light shine for all the world to see: the brightness of your life within, the peace that sets you free.” (hymn)
 
fred_conty said:
Your JW friend said that there is no life at all if spiritually dead.

If that is the case, then why are all the catholics still alive, if in his opinion they are all spiritually dead?

Just an observation.​

“Let your light shine for all the world to see: the brightness of your life within, the peace that sets you free.” (hymn)
Click to expand...
I know a lot of their beliefs but I should have guessed that they think that WE are spiritually dead. I am going to ask my friend about this. I am interested in her answer.
 
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