Spiritual killing between Muslims.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sam_777
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
dzheremi said:
“Turn the other cheek and run”. It oversimplifies a complex situation while simulteanously mocking Christians for holding to the teachings of their religion in very difficult circumstances.
Click to expand...
Christian religion allows just war. When does turning the other cheek become cowardice? I am asking this question seriously!
 
eichenb2 said:
Christian religion allows just war.
Click to expand...
Indeed it does, under very specific circumstances. However, the focus of the Church (especially in relation to the situation in Gaza right now) is much more on peaceful alternatives to war and upholding the dignity of the human person, rather than satifying the requirements that would allow Christians to go around shooting people or blowing them up or whatever it is you think is a more legitimate form of resistance.

It should be noted that Christians themselves also recognize the legitimacy of armed struggle. Mr. Andoni’s International Solidarity Movement has attracted criticism for its apparent refusal to disavow armed resistance outright. See this summary for some of the charges and their response to them.

I made this point a long time ago in a thread by a Maronite Christian from Australia who was looking to start up some new version of the Lebanese Forces or something. Armed resistance is legitimate, but since we are Catholic Christians, it is not only a last resort, but it also to some degree out of our hands as laity (at least the sort of organized armed resistance that this poster was advocating, and the kind that Hamas organizes). We have strong central authority in our Churches and strong doctrine promulgated by them that has no parallel among the Muslims. “Just War” is taken seriously. There are so few Christians (and Catholics esepcially) in the Holy Land as a whole, what do you think would happen if they all armed themselves and became organized ala al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade? Not only would they get slaughtered by the Israelis (even more so than is already happening, since they will have “stuck their heads up”, so to speak), but possibly also eventually by competing Muslim groups, who would probably not like the idea of armed militias of Christians running around what they see as “Muslim” Palestine.

To be able to continue an armed resistance as the Muslims have would require a much larger Christian population on the ground, extensive native social support systems, and many other things that don’t seem to be there for the tiny Christian minority of Gaza.

Perhaps a nationalist resistance without respect to religion (something like the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, which was headed by a Christian, but politically Marxist/non-religious) would be “better”, if you really think about the sort of organization a Christian would want to join if they wanted to participate in armed resistance? After all, what does a Christian have to gain by getting mixed up in a Sunni Islamist organization like Hamas?

Selections from the Hamas Founding Charter:
“Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.”
Click to expand...
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Muslem).
Click to expand...
Nothing about this sort of rhetoric is the least bit appealing. It’s all for Muslims and about Muslims and how great they are and how Jews hide behind trees. 🤷
When does turning the other cheek become cowardice? I am asking this question seriously!
Click to expand...
You tell me. You’re the one who implied that it does when you talked about turning the other cheek and running.
 
Sister_Amy said:
All you’ve shown my friend is that Saudis (like yourself perhaps) do not care much for the dignity of fellow human beings. In this part of the world, we understand such behavior to be tribal and ignorant, and far away from the teachings of Islam.

That you can’t tell the difference shows exactly why such ignorance continues to flourish in your own country.

Instead of complaining about Islam to Catholics (who by and large don’t give two whits about what goes on in Saudia), why don’t you do something positive to change the world for the better?
Click to expand...
Off course. Sam is doing precisely what you are suggesting. First, remove the false foundation, and replace it with the true one.
 
dzheremi said:
I would no more tell Sam to leave Saudi Arabia than I would tell Sister Amy to leave the United States. If either were to decide to leave, it would be (I hope) of their own volition, so it’s fine. Otherwise, what reason is there?
Click to expand...
That is not an equal comparison, brother. Sister Amy, a muslim live in the US is in much much much better condition compared to Sam, a present muslim who is already fall in love with Jesus, living in Saudi Arabia.
 
dzheremi said:
Indeed it does, under very specific circumstances. However, the focus of the Church (especially in relation to the situation in Gaza right now) is much more on peaceful alternatives to war and upholding the dignity of the human person, rather than satifying the requirements that would allow Christians to go around shooting people or blowing them up or whatever it is you think is a more legitimate form of resistance.

It should be noted that Christians themselves also recognize the legitimacy of armed struggle. Mr. Andoni’s International Solidarity Movement has attracted criticism for its apparent refusal to disavow armed resistance outright. See this summary for some of the charges and their response to them.

I made this point a long time ago in a thread by a Maronite Christian from Australia who was looking to start up some new version of the Lebanese Forces or something. Armed resistance is legitimate, but since we are Catholic Christians, it is not only a last resort, but it also to some degree out of our hands as laity (at least the sort of organized armed resistance that this poster was advocating, and the kind that Hamas organizes). We have strong central authority in our Churches and strong doctrine promulgated by them that has no parallel among the Muslims. “Just War” is taken seriously. There are so few Christians (and Catholics esepcially) in the Holy Land as a whole, what do you think would happen if they all armed themselves and became organized ala al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade? Not only would they get slaughtered by the Israelis (even more so than is already happening, since they will have “stuck their heads up”, so to speak), but possibly also eventually by competing Muslim groups, who would probably not like the idea of armed militias of Christians running around what they see as “Muslim” Palestine.

To be able to continue an armed resistance as the Muslims have would require a much larger Christian population on the ground, extensive native social support systems, and many other things that don’t seem to be there for the tiny Christian minority of Gaza.

Perhaps a nationalist resistance without respect to religion (something like the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, which was headed by a Christian, but politically Marxist/non-religious) would be “better”, if you really think about the sort of organization a Christian would want to join if they wanted to participate in armed resistance? After all, what does a Christian have to gain by getting mixed up in a Sunni Islamist organization like Hamas?

Selections from the Hamas Founding Charter:

Nothing about this sort of rhetoric is the least bit appealing. It’s all for Muslims and about Muslims and how great they are and how Jews hide behind trees. 🤷

You tell me. You’re the one who implied that it does when you talked about turning the other cheek and running.
Click to expand...
Hamas does not represent all Muslims. I find it hard to criticize though when thier houses are bulldozed by Israeli forces for not having a permit, that they were prevented from getting because 1 of the seemingly endless security checkpoints were closed. Have you ever known a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza? If you did, you would know some of the realities.
 
Swariffin: You are right, it is not a fair comparison. I did not mean to imply that they are in comparable situations, only to say that neither of them should be told to quit complaining or leave, because…well, these countries are their home countries. You wouldn’t like it if someone told you to leave Indonesia if you were telling us of the difficulties of living there because of the Islamic orientation of the majority of the society. Sam was just doing the same thing, I think.

Eichenb2: In no part of my post did I even imply that Hamas spoke for all Palestinians. They don’t, and I don’t think anyone believes they do. And, yes, I do know Palestinians and the hardships that they face. That’s why I support a free Palestinian state! I was merely hypothesizing why joining an armed resistance might not be the first option in the mind of every Palestinian Christian.
 
dzheremi said:
Swariffin: You are right, it is not a fair comparison. I did not mean to imply that they are in comparable situations, only to say that neither of them should be told to quit complaining or leave, because…well, these countries are their home countries. You wouldn’t like it if someone told you to leave Indonesia if you were telling us of the difficulties of living there because of the Islamic orientation of the majority of the society. Sam was just doing the same thing, I think.

Eichenb2: In no part of my post did I even imply that Hamas spoke for all Palestinians. They don’t, and I don’t think anyone believes they do. And, yes, I do know Palestinians and the hardships that they face. That’s why I support a free Palestinian state! I was merely hypothesizing why joining an armed resistance might not be the first option in the mind of every Palestinian Christian.
Click to expand...
Fair enough.
 
eichenb2 said:
Why didn’t the Christians of Palestine stay and fight alongside the Muslims for their Homeland???
Click to expand...
Probably because those same muslims were persecuting the Christians - the indigenous people - when they weren’t terrorising and persecuting the Israelis.

I have a lot of respect for the Palestinian and Coptic Christians. Their revelations once they are in the West of what it is really like for them amongst the muslims is disheartening. These people have no voice; and they are damned if they do (speak out) and damned if they don’t. Whatever happens, they are left there to deal with the consequences as best they can.

And isn’t Father Zakeria fantastic 🙂
 
Fr. Boutros is indeed a great man! A real hero of mine, and an inspiration for Christians everywhere, Coptic and otherwise. 👍
 
dzheremi said:
Swariffin: You are right, it is not a fair comparison. I did not mean to imply that they are in comparable situations, only to say that neither of them should be told to quit complaining or leave, because…well, these countries are their home countries. You wouldn’t like it if someone told you to leave Indonesia if you were telling us of the difficulties of living there because of the Islamic orientation of the majority of the society. Sam was just doing the same thing, I think.

Eichenb2: In no part of my post did I even imply that Hamas spoke for all Palestinians. They don’t, and I don’t think anyone believes they do. And, yes, I do know Palestinians and the hardships that they face. That’s why I support a free Palestinian state! I was merely hypothesizing why joining an armed resistance might not be the first option in the mind of every Palestinian Christian.
Click to expand...
I got your point, brother. God bless you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top