Spiritual trust issues

[Wulfgar]

Lately I’ve had worries about trust - specifically, trusting others when it comes to spiritual matters. I’m consistently hearing things about liturgical abuses, priests preaching heresy, etc. Every time I walk into confession to receive the sacrament and ask the priest some questions relating to spirituality and religion, I don’t know if I can trust him because he’s, well, a priest, and I’ve heard way too many negative things about our priests on these forums and elsewhere throughout the online Catholic world.

I’m also not sure if I’m supposed to take a “lenient” side or an incredibly “strict” side to spirituality - do I need to walk through life perpetually guilty or not? What’s the proper position on that spectrum? Some people tend to be very harsh in discussing religion, always talking about how bad our bishops and priests are and how the vast majority of mankind is damned; while others are softer and mild (think Fr. Robert Barron). Which attitude am I supposed to adopt?

This sort of issue also translates to how I’m to live my life as well, so it’s definitely not a matter of “personality”. Do we take the Gospels as face-value literally as possible when Jesus talks about poverty and giving away all of our possessions and never making financial investments, or do we need to simply adopt some kind of “detachment” from material things, giving generously but not necessarily living in abject poverty (unless of course we’re called to it)? If your eye causes you to sin, do you really need to pluck it out? I mean, Jesus did specifically invoke Gehenna; how do we distinguish hyperbole from literalism in the Gospels?

I try to trust God, and intellectually I know He’s the best person to trust because, well, He’s God; the real problem is that I can’t trust myself when I try to listen in prayer, and I can’t always trust that what I read online or what I hear from a priest or Catholic friends is correct. Heck, I can’t even trust my own understanding of official Church documents and the Catechism, especially when I read arguments over what a document actually meant or stuff from some traditional-leaning Catholics with whom the recent Catechism doesn’t sit very well. I also don’t like it when some of them grumble about Vatican II and how the Church is practically in ruins because of the council’s fruits (though I’m sure that our current state isn’t due to the council itself, maybe people’s wrong interpretation of it); so does that mean that it’s discouraged to read ANY post-V2 Catholic material?

Sorry if there’s a lot of questions in this post. There’s been a lot on my mind, and think the real problem is that I don’t have enough faith, or that I’m too afraid of the truth, or maybe the fact that I read too many posts on forums and comment threads and then I get all confused. But still, you don’t obtain all of your spiritual advice and wisdom by simply praying all day; you have to trust in some other human being that will help you out in a concrete manner.

 

[Jozefo]

I have had the same trust issues. Maybe I’m older than you, but over the years I’ve settled on my own understanding of things. I can’t trust that either, so my ultimate plan - in the event I’ve understood things wrongly - is to throw myself on the mercy of the court.

I’ve struggled hard with some of the issues you raise, and for me, I find no other way. I just go along and do the best I can. But if it’s not good enough, well, I’m only the clay. If I am an unclean vessel, fit for nothing, destroy me. But I will beg forgiveness if I have the chance to plead.

 

[Beryllos]

… I’m consistently hearing things about liturgical abuses, priests preaching heresy, etc.

… I’ve heard way too many negative things about our priests on these forums and elsewhere throughout the online Catholic world.

… or maybe the fact that I read too many posts on forums and comment threads and then I get all confused.

Bingo! The problem is that you are “crowd-sourcing” your religion. I am gradually coming to the conclusion that internet forums are not a trustworthy resource for questions of catechism, liturgy, and morality.

You know what happens when you ask a question on the internet? You get a lot of personal opinions, all over the map, many of them misinformed, many of them at variance with church teachings, and it’s often the most extreme comments that stand out. It doesn’t take any qualifications to post here at Catholic Answers. What sort of personalities do you think spend the most time and energy here in the forums, and what motivates them?

I think you should take a step back from the noise and confusion of online forums, and try to find yourself a spiritual advisor. Not a crowd, not a team, not a consensus, but a trustworthy individual that you can meet face to face. Also try to familiarize yourself with the Catechism. That may clear up a lot of your questions and worries. Praise God, and thank him for the love and blessings he has given you. Pray for guidance and wisdom.

Be at peace, my friend. May the Holy Spirit assist and guide you always toward a life of love and virtue.

 

[ClearWater]

Some people tend to be very harsh in discussing religion, always talking about how bad our bishops and priests are and how the vast majority of mankind is damned; while others are softer and mild (think Fr. Robert Barron). Which attitude am I supposed to adopt?

See comments on this from the saints.

romancatholicism.org/jansenism/fathers-fewness.htm

Out of one hundred thousand sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved. St. Jerome

 

[Wulfgar]

See comments on this from the saints.

romancatholicism.org/jansenism/fathers-fewness.htm

Out of one hundred thousand sinners who continue in sin until death, scarcely one will be saved. St. Jerome

Yeah, I already saw that site. But I am having some issues with it: does it account for any saints that believe the opposite - i.e., that we have SOME hope that most will be saved? Or does it merely cherry-pick the saints that believed that only few will be saved?

Another issue: none of these quotes are taken into context with their original source. For instance, St. Alphonsus tends to produce some of the darkest quotes I have ever read, but it’s important to keep in mind the background of his life: he suffered immensely when he was older, both physically and spiritually, and had to endure a lot of religious dissension as well. Does that mean we ignore what he said? Certainly not. But we need to understand that people come from different places and times and lead different lives.

It’s also interesting that “jansenism” precedes the name of the article in the URL. I think we need to be a bit more cautious when reading websites, especially when the name of a heresy shows up.

And plus, not ALL of those quotes strictly talk about the fewness of those who make it to heaven. Most do, sure, but some of these quotes seemed to be deliberately ripped out of their sources. And a lot of them are from the same saints, so it makes the appearance that MOST of the the saints, or MANY saints, believe most are damned.

And here: “The common opinion is that the greater part of adults is lost.” -St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori. Is St. Alphonsus referring to the opinion of the saints, or the opinion of his time/location? I’d like to know what he said before and after this statement, and where this statement was made.

But most importantly, I want to make it known that I do NOT wish to undermine what the saints said. I am simply saying that it’s wrong to collect a bunch of quotes to make it appear that EVERYONE who is a saint believed this. Plus, it would also be helpful for the webpage to list some quotes that gave practical ADVICE on what to do to be saved, rather than making readers leave with a fruitless feeling of fear and anxiety. What point is speculation if it won’t ultimately help us?

 

[Wulfgar]

I have had the same trust issues. Maybe I’m older than you, but over the years I’ve settled on my own understanding of things. I can’t trust that either, so my ultimate plan - in the event I’ve understood things wrongly - is to throw myself on the mercy of the court.

I’ve struggled hard with some of the issues you raise, and for me, I find no other way. I just go along and do the best I can. But if it’s not good enough, well, I’m only the clay. If I am an unclean vessel, fit for nothing, destroy me. But I will beg forgiveness if I have the chance to plead.

Do you truly believe that that is how God wants you to see life and live life? Surely salvation isn’t a “hit-or-miss and hope for the best” scenario. I would think that God wants to reach out to us and help us. Or, perhaps we’re too bogged down in sin and pride to realize His endeavors.

Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I’ve had a theory about all this: in this day and age, people tend to see God as more of a kindly, loving father who wants to love us and who wants to form a personal relationship with us. Perhaps it’s the product of a more individualistic society, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing; emphasis on the individual has good points (not stereotyping, treating every other person as a unique treasure of God, etc.) and bad ones (self-centeredness, pride, etc.).

In the past, people tended to embrace a harsher view of God as a cosmic judge. Perhaps this was because most societies were based on autocratic rule, and people identified themselves far more often as part of some sort of group (whether it be a city-state, a tribe, an empire, or an embrace of nationalism).

Both views have good and bad aspects, but I really do think that we need to try to keep these in mind. And plus, it makes for some fascinating historical and sociological discussion.

All in all, though, your point has merit. Sometimes I think we need to simply try our best to live a life pleasing to God. But oftentimes, whenever I finally manage to do something “good”, I don’t feel at peace; I feel that God isn’t satisfied, that it’s insufficient, or that I didn’t actually do anything truly “good” (for instance, did my couple of volunteer hours actually do anything to help someone else?).

 

[Wulfgar]

Bingo! The problem is that you are “crowd-sourcing” your religion. I am gradually coming to the conclusion that internet forums are not a trustworthy resource for questions of catechism, liturgy, and morality.

You know what happens when you ask a question on the internet? You get a lot of personal opinions, all over the map, many of them misinformed, many of them at variance with church teachings, and it’s often the most extreme comments that stand out. It doesn’t take any qualifications to post here at Catholic Answers. What sort of personalities do you think spend the most time and energy here in the forums, and what motivates them?

I think you should take a step back from the noise and confusion of online forums, and try to find yourself a spiritual advisor. Not a crowd, not a team, not a consensus, but a trustworthy individual that you can meet face to face. Also try to familiarize yourself with the Catechism. That may clear up a lot of your questions and worries. Praise God, and thank him for the love and blessings he has given you. Pray for guidance and wisdom.

Be at peace, my friend. May the Holy Spirit assist and guide you always toward a life of love and virtue.

Thank you Beryllos. Yeah, I have a horrible habit of spending more time on forums, and more time talking things away, than actually reading religious material and listening. They’re some of my many vices unfortunately. I’d also ask you all to pray for me; I certainly need it.

I was always told that living a life truly pleasing to God, a saintly life, would fill you with peace and joy. Obviously you’re supposed to seek God Himself, not the latter stuff; but the latter stuff are the products of a good life. Those quotes from some of the saints, however, seem to really be at odds with that perspective.

 

[Oren]

I’ve gone through this. I didn’t know which way to turn when I became Catholic. If you read the Saints, they tell you one thing, and everyone else says something very different. They say the saints were just living in the dark ages or something and so you should just listen to what people say now. I choose to listen to the Saints. If you read enough of them, they all pretty much say similar things and so, you can get a good idea of what a holy life is supposed to look like. I don’t live up to that ideal obviously, but it’s better than comforting myself with false information.
St. Paul says to work out your salvation in fear and trembling, run the race to the end etc, Jesus says pick up your cross, deny yourself, wide is the road to destruction…it’s not easy. It used to give me a lot to worry about, but if you focus more on trust and confidence in God, while at the same time acknowledging that it isn’t easy, the worry goes away.
I would not put my trust in any priest or spiritual director unless you are sure that you know your faith and you can spot it if they are telling you bunk.

 

[Oren]

Thank you Beryllos. Yeah, I have a horrible habit of spending more time on forums, and more time talking things away, than actually reading religious material and listening. They’re some of my many vices unfortunately. I’d also ask you all to pray for me; I certainly need it.

I was always told that living a life truly pleasing to God, a saintly life, would fill you with peace and joy. Obviously you’re supposed to seek God Himself, not the latter stuff; but the latter stuff are the products of a good life. Those quotes from some of the saints, however, seem to really be at odds with that perspective.

Try reading the autobiography of St. Teresa of Avila. It isn’t hard to understand and it will give you a lot of insight into the spiritual life of a saint. There is peace and joy, but we are called to pick up our cross and suffer and that’s what Saints did… a lot. It isn’t all cheerfulness and being worry free…I haven’t found any Saint’s life to be like that. They suffered a lot and they were very concerned with their final destination. St. Teresa talks about when God showed her her place in hell that she had deserved and she said she meditated on that all the time. People nowadays like to forget those kinds of things and pretend like being Christian is all roses…but it’s not and was never meant to be.

 

[Wulfgar]

I’ve gone through this. I didn’t know which way to turn when I became Catholic. If you read the Saints, they tell you one thing, and everyone else says something very different. They say the saints were just living in the dark ages or something and so you should just listen to what people say now. I choose to listen to the Saints. If you read enough of them, they all pretty much say similar things and so, you can get a good idea of what a holy life is supposed to look like. I don’t live up to that ideal obviously, but it’s better than comforting myself with false information.
St. Paul says to work out your salvation in fear and trembling, run the race to the end etc, Jesus says pick up your cross, deny yourself, wide is the road to destruction…it’s not easy. It used to give me a lot to worry about, but if you focus more on trust and confidence in God, while at the same time acknowledging that it isn’t easy, the worry goes away.
I would not put my trust in any priest or spiritual director unless you are sure that you know your faith and you can spot it if they are telling you bunk.

Man, I just feel so ALONE. I know I need to trust God, but come on, I just want to at least trust SOMEONE in the flesh and blood. I hate relying on the internet; every orthodox Catholic I’ve ever met seems to fall into the “not-the-saints” category you mentioned. They’re all so happy, but that happiness seems so wrong. I’m sorry if that’s the wrong attitude; I really need to sort this stuff out. Or just accept it and move on. I don’t know.

 

[Oren]

Man, I just feel so ALONE. I know I need to trust God, but come on, I just want to at least trust SOMEONE in the flesh and blood. I hate relying on the internet; every orthodox Catholic I’ve ever met seems to fall into the “not-the-saints” category you mentioned. They’re all so happy, but that happiness seems so wrong. I’m sorry if that’s the wrong attitude; I really need to sort this stuff out. Or just accept it and move on. I don’t know.

If you want to talk you can message me. I’ve been having the same problem as you for over ten years and the people I trust are the Saints. They are trustworthy and people who tell you to ignore them are not. I’ve had a couple different spiritual directors and all they wanted to tell me was that my sin was ‘ok’. I stopped seeing them. My friend has had a couple of different spiritual directors and she says the same thing. She’s very upset right now too because she can’t find one who is trustworthy…but St. Teresa of Avila had the same problem for a long time. She said that if you are seeking a good spiritual director, and you are praying for one, but still can’t find one, then God will help you Himself.

 

[Skyhighblue34]

Lately I’ve had worries about trust - specifically, trusting others when it comes to spiritual matters. I’m consistently hearing things about liturgical abuses, priests preaching heresy, etc. Every time I walk into confession to receive the sacrament and ask the priest some questions relating to spirituality and religion, I don’t know if I can trust him because he’s, well, a priest, and I’ve heard way too many negative things about our priests on these forums and elsewhere throughout the online Catholic world.

I’m also not sure if I’m supposed to take a “lenient” side or an incredibly “strict” side to spirituality - do I need to walk through life perpetually guilty or not? What’s the proper position on that spectrum? Some people tend to be very harsh in discussing religion, always talking about how bad our bishops and priests are and how the vast majority of mankind is damned; while others are softer and mild (think Fr. Robert Barron). Which attitude am I supposed to adopt?

This sort of issue also translates to how I’m to live my life as well, so it’s definitely not a matter of “personality”. Do we take the Gospels as face-value literally as possible when Jesus talks about poverty and giving away all of our possessions and never making financial investments, or do we need to simply adopt some kind of “detachment” from material things, giving generously but not necessarily living in abject poverty (unless of course we’re called to it)? If your eye causes you to sin, do you really need to pluck it out? I mean, Jesus did specifically invoke Gehenna; how do we distinguish hyperbole from literalism in the Gospels?

I try to trust God, and intellectually I know He’s the best person to trust because, well, He’s God; the real problem is that I can’t trust myself when I try to listen in prayer, and I can’t always trust that what I read online or what I hear from a priest or Catholic friends is correct. Heck, I can’t even trust my own understanding of official Church documents and the Catechism, especially when I read arguments over what a document actually meant or stuff from some traditional-leaning Catholics with whom the recent Catechism doesn’t sit very well. I also don’t like it when some of them grumble about Vatican II and how the Church is practically in ruins because of the council’s fruits (though I’m sure that our current state isn’t due to the council itself, maybe people’s wrong interpretation of it); so does that mean that it’s discouraged to read ANY post-V2 Catholic material?

Sorry if there’s a lot of questions in this post. There’s been a lot on my mind, and think the real problem is that I don’t have enough faith, or that I’m too afraid of the truth, or maybe the fact that I read too many posts on forums and comment threads and then I get all confused. But still, you don’t obtain all of your spiritual advice and wisdom by simply praying all day; you have to trust in some other human being that will help you out in a concrete manner.

You know today I was wondering if priests go to confession. The answer I found was that yes, they do. Even the pope goes to confession. You’d think that because of their… uhh… “profession” that they would be spotless in regards to sin. And some can be, but most are human and still sin. I mean if the pope goes to confession, the dude has got to make mistakes somehow… So don’t let it get to you, nobody is perfect. Besides, they deserve second chances too.

 

[Incomplete]

Man, I just feel so ALONE. I know I need to trust God, but come on, I just want to at least trust SOMEONE in the flesh and blood. I hate relying on the internet; every orthodox Catholic I’ve ever met seems to fall into the “not-the-saints” category you mentioned. They’re all so happy, but that happiness seems so wrong. I’m sorry if that’s the wrong attitude; I really need to sort this stuff out. Or just accept it and move on. I don’t know.

Throughout scripture, God has shown that He works through His creation…through us! So yes, you need to trust a flesh-and-blood someone. Regarding the saints, many had joy. If you truly experience God the way some of them did, how can you help but have joy? In fact, if you are miserable, you will not be a witness for drawing others to God. While Jesus tells us to take up our cross, He does not tell us to be constantly unhappy.

It’s difficult to know who to trust, especially if you are spending too much time on the internet reading too many opinions (including mine!)

So how do you know? Look for someone in whom it seems the spirit is working. To see how the Spirit is working in someone, including yourself, look for fruits. Galatians lists the fruits of the spirit as love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. (Note that joy and peace are two of them!) Nobody has all of these in high proportions; we are all a work in progress. But see how you grow in them and, when looking for someone to trust, see if there is evidence of the fruits of the Spirit.

The priest I trust most and turn to for spiritual issues is the one who has taught me of God’s enormous love, while also showing me that Catholicism is not for sissies! If I claim to love God, there is much I should be changing about myself. Sin is something to try to avoid; however, God is a loving and forgiving God. This priest is not all about hellfire and damnation; neither does he think that everybody automatically goes to heaven after this life! This is in line with Catholic teachings…trust a priest with your spiritual life who recognizes the both/and aspect of Catholicism. Trust the priest who helps you grow in love of God, and in that love, grows in you a desire to serve God with your entire being, to focus on God in all things, to live for Him.

Remember that God works through others, so yes, you should find someone to trust.

 

[Beryllos]

Incomplete, several good points, well said…

 

[Oren]

Yeah, I didn’t mean to seem negative. If you look for a spiritual director, maybe you’ll find someone who can help. I had one spiritual director who did help me a little even though I had to stop seeing him eventually because he was affirming me in bad ways. He still helped though for the short time I talked to him. I just meant that you need to make sure that you know your faith so that you can know when to listen to them and when not to listen to them. I really do hope you can find someone to talk to, even if they are not perfect