Spirituality among all Christian people

[Della]

I have a few propositions regarding spirituality within Christendom:

1. God meets us where we are. No one, no matter what ecclesial body he is a member of, has to know everything in order for him to experience the grace and beauty of knowing God.
2. This means God gives us of himself if we desire to have him.
3. This does not mean, however, that the ecclesial body in which we are worshiping him can’t be deficient in some way.
4. I believe that every ecclesial body has much to offer and insights from which all Christians can benefit. On this last point, I will use my own as an example. Within the Catholic Church there are many spiritualities or charisms, as we call them. They are most clearly manifested in our religious orders, such as the Carmelites, the Benedictines, the Franciscans, etc. Each of these bodies is completely Catholic and yet each lives out their baptismal vows (to love and serve God above all else) in different ways. For example, the Carmelites have an affective charism (of the heart), the Franciscans it is holy poverty (blessed are the poor in spirit). And yet we all benefit from their charisms, all peoples, not just Christians.

So, my proposition is this, which I believe is the heart of ecumenicism, is that we not judge each others beliefs based on our spirituality. For I have enjoyed the Baptist love of Scripture and the Anglican’s love of ritual beauty and the Lutheran’s of forbearance, and even the Calvinists in their love of the preeminence of God. I don’t see these things as contradictions, but many facets of the same thing–of the Body of Christ in service to him and to each other for we are all connected by our baptism and our belief in Christ.

Please forgive the length of this post, everyone, but I would very much like to hear your responses. Thank you.

 

[GeorgeTheWild]

I agree. There is much that each sect of Christianity has in common with each other… even those of us in imperfect communion with the Roman Catholic Church. We agree upon the important parts (salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus) and disagree about more minor portions of doctrine. I for one greatly respect the clarity of doctrine and unity of the Roman Catholic Church. In that facet of Christianity, there is much those of us in imperfect communion could learn from the Roman Catholic Church. Also, there is much good that Christianity could do if we looked past our differences and toward our common goals and love of Christ.

I’ll leave yall with this:

1 Peter 4:8-11
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Della]

Thank you, GeorgetheWild. I also enjoy the fervor of Evangelicals and their zeal for spreading the Gospel. I wish we were like that, but most Catholics are quiet about their faith. Part of that is cultural and part of it stems from a more introspective spirituality that is part of meditation and contemplation. I’m afraid, though that most of us are not meditative or contemplative, but merely quiet. LOL!

 

[Lancer]

For your consideration…excerpts from Catechism (CCC) 813-822 on Unity…Ecumenism

Pax Christi

**I. THE CHURCH IS ONE **
"The sacred mystery of the Church’s unity" (UR 2) **
815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion: **
**- profession of one faith received from the Apostles; **
**-common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments; **
**- apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God’s family.266 **

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267
The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268

Wounds to unity **
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276 **

Toward unity **
820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279* [your feelings about unity/ecumenism…are a very pronounced blessing from the Holy Spirit…simply…you are a blessed person in a very special way…charism]***

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:

• a permanent *renewal *of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280
• conversion of heart as the faithful “try to live holier lives according to the Gospel”;281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ’s gift which causes divisions;
• prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”'282
  -* fraternal knowledge of each other*;283
• ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284
• *dialogue *among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285
• *collaboration *among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 “Human service” is the idiomatic phrase.

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize “that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts.” **That is why we place all our hope “in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit.”**288
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#811
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[Lancer]

For your consideration…some excerpts from a Vatican letter by the (now former) President of the Vatican’s Ecumenical Efforts…Cardinal Kasper

Unitatis Redintegratio: A New Interpretation After 40 Years
Cardinal Walter Kasper
President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity
’UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO’, VATICAN II’S DECREE ON ECUMENISM

On 21 November 1964, the Second Vatican Council solemnly promulgated the Decree on Ecumenism, Unitatis Redintegratio. The Document states in its Introduction that “Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only”, and that division contradicts the will of the Lord, “scandalizes the world and damages that most holy cause, the preaching of the Gospel… The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council” (n. 1).
Since then 40 years have passed during which the Document has had unprecedented repercussions whose impact has been felt far beyond the Catholic Church.
Forty years are a measure of biblical time. This gives us a good reason to enquire: what was the purpose of the Decree? What was its effect? Today, what point have we reached regarding ecumenism? How far does ecumenism still have to go? Ecumenism, quo vadis?

The Council was able to adopt the ecumenical movement because it saw the Church in movement, that is, as the People of God pressing forward (cf. Lumen Gentium, nn. 2, end; 8, 9, 48-51, et al.). In other words, the Council gave fresh importance to the eschatological dimension, showing that the Church is not a static but a dynamic reality, that she is the People of God on pilgrimage between the “already” and the “not yet”. The Council integrated the ecumenical movement into this eschatological dynamic.
Understood in this way, ecumenism is the “way of the Church” (Ut Unum Sint, n. 7). It is neither an addition nor some sort of appendix, but an integral, organic part of the life and pastoral activity of the Church (cf. Ut Unum Sint, n. 20).
In this eschatological perspective, the ecumenical movement is closely connected to the missionary movement. Ecumenism and mission are like twins.3
Mission is an eschatological phenomenon through which the Church absorbs the cultural patrimony of the peoples and purifies and enriches it, thereby also enriching herself and reaching the full measure of her catholicity (cf. Ad Gentes, nn. 1 ff., 9, et al.).

The Council was not so ingenuous as to ignore the danger that integrating the ecumenical movement into the Church’s dynamic eschatology could entail. This dynamic, as has happened all too often in the Church’s history, could have been erroneously interpreted as a progressivist movement that saw the heritage of ancient traditions as obsolete, rejecting it in the name of what might be termed a progressivist conception of faith. Wherever this occurs there is a real risk of relativism and indifferentism, of “cheap ecumenism” that ends by becoming superfluous. This has at times meant that the ecumenical movement has fallen prey to movements critical of the Church, and this has been exploited against her.
Dogmatic laxism leads to the refusal to recognize the essence of the Church’s eschatological dimension. The eschaton does not in fact refer to a future reality that is located outside history. With Jesus Christ and with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, it has definitively entered history and is present in the Church.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUR40Y.HTM

 

[Della]

Thanks, Lancer, but let’s keep this a friendly discussion between fellow Christians about what we share and what we’d like to see each other have that each has to offer. Thanks again.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We spend way to much debating points of contention as opposed to the focus being on that which we do all believe. Thats for sure.

More often than not these are simply personal petty human feelings which often stem from learned behavior. Without a doubt a individual born in VooDoo or Islam or any religion you can think of believes there feelings and thinking is just as valid as yours.

In regards to Christian denominations its often the same thinking. Many arrive to uphold a belief not because it is sound, but because it is what they grew up to believe, thus their peers and elders also believe, so its confirmed in thinking. Thus it becomes perfectly normal for them to accept and promote what in fact theres often no sound proof behind.

Yet here we have so many points which many denominations do agree on. So we should admit as humans we don’t know all the answers. Then stick non-dogmatically to that which we have trouble with till a better understanding is reached.

Yet we also are not here as Christians to promote comfort and the McChurch Theory. If McChurch becomes difficult then we go with Wendys? So motive in what exactly one is looking to achieve in faith also comes into play

If you watch late night Religion you will see Evangalists who in fact do not even have a Cross in the congregation. The service in essence becomes a show, and to make one feel good and make the faith more appealing. And also with a promise of a Miracle in the Seed, Time, Harvest program. The exact words are “to break povertys back” if I’m not mistaken? While sick seniors who can’t attend Mass send a $1000, which in fact they can’t afford in hopes of a Miracle that heals, and monetary gain… Sad is what that is.

So I mean who in fact is the one drawing the lines in the line drawing game? Because while its also a wonderfull thought to have a Universal Church. There must also be a Doctine which is a guideline. Otherwise the McChurch theory is in full effect.

I mean if the idea is to feel good? I’d buy a bottle of Jack Daniels and leave the Catholic Church. I’m not going to church to feel good. Nor do I expect God to do my will because I gave a donation to the church. I’m here to do Gods will and if by chance He deems me fit for anything, so be it. Just Sayin:shrug:

Beautiful thoughts but no easy answers, so then what is realistic? The Orthodox, Catholic communion is coming and real. The Angelican Church has came a long way to reach Rome. Lutherans are not far off track.

You would certainly think we could do better than we are though. Thats for sure.

 

[Singinbeauty]

…Wow, it has been SUCH a long time since I was last in these forums… - I love to see threads such as these - I am what most catholics call ‘protestant’ though I don’t find myself protesting much.

Anyway - I have always held the belief that though we are of different mindsets in a lot of ways we hold one very important idea and belief in common - we believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate and that He came to die for us all. Salvation can only be obtained through Him.

We (as a whole) are the Body of Christ, do your toes serve the same purpose as your eyes? Do your arms serve the way your heart does? Can your nose keep you walking the way your legs do? To move forward we have to work together and spread the news of Christ crucified! But of course, Satan wants to make sure this doesn’t happen so he may make the heel of the right foot jealous of the left ear or make the bellybutton feel more important or justified than the lips.

In Christ’s love!
Singinbeauty

 

[Della]

Just to clarify, I am in no way advocating indifferentism here–the “McChurch” syndrome we see many pushing these days. The whole point of this thread is to recognize what we admire in each others eccelsial bodies and what we each could benefit from that we each have. I have mentioned a couple of those things, so please share those things you admire/feel are beneficial to us all from some eccelsial body not your own. Let’s help each other in our walk with Christ in this thread instead of wrangling due to assumptions or perceptions or upbringing, etc.

And yes, I believe truth is of primary importance (for those who may think I don’t), and I share the truths of the Church quite freely whenever I can, but let’s please put aside polemics and apologetics in this thread–thank you everyone!

 

[GKC]

I agree with Della.

GKC

 

[rinnie]

What I admire of all faiths is their TRUE LOVE FOR JESUS. I love to hear them talk about him.

I know that we are all not united into one Church, but I feel when with the Love we have for God we are all united into one Heart. The rest will come in time.

But as long as we remember that we are all Children of God and he holds no favoirites maybe that will make it easier for us to become one in faith.

But for the moment as long as we can remember we are all one in heart that hopefully will keep us all close to one another and God the best way we can.