Spirituality of religious orders in Catholic tradition

[wasserfall]

You seem to be assuming that none of the Desert fathers had charismatic experiences?

Well they couldn’t have been slain in the spirit or they would have fallen off their column.

 

[wasserfall]

Strict means to follow the Rule strictly, not to live a “strict” life in the common sense of the word. In the strict interpretation of the Rule, monks are to live what Benedict would have called a balanced life. 8 hours of prayer, 8 hours of work, 8 hours of rest.

I understand, but the austerity was one of the founding characteristics of the trappists, so it’s hard to say that by giving it up they were “going back to their roots” or something like that.

I had a great (or maybe great great) uncle who was a trappist. I never met him though so I don’t know what he thought about the changes (he was already quite old at the time of the council).

 

[jwinch2]

I don’t see any Catholic practice that must exclude Charismatic spirituality. You seem to be assuming that none of the Desert fathers had charismatic experiences?

I said this earlier but I will say it again, having a charismatic experience of the Holy Spirit within traditional Benedictine prayer and worship, and practicing the activities of the Charismatic Renewal within Benedictine life are not the same thing. And as for your first statement above, I am not concerned with finding anything which excludes it, I am looking for something to support it which you seem unable to provide. There would be no reason to exclude something in your tradition which is not going to be developed for 1500 years which they never could have predicted. And again, I recognize that it is a legitimate movement within the Catholic Church at large. And again, that was not the question or the topic at hand.

I have given you ample opportunity to provide any sort of evidence within Benedictine Tradition which would lend support for the incorporation of the Charismatic Renewal into Benedictine life. You have not done this. So, I am left to conclude that you are not aware of anything within the roots of the Benedictine Tradition which would suggest that the Charismatic Renewal is a legitimate manifestation of Benedictine Spirituality or has a legitimate role in Benedictine life.

 

[jwinch2]

I understand, but the austerity was one of the founding characteristics of the trappists, so it’s hard to say that by giving it up they were “going back to their roots” or something like that.

I had a great (or maybe great great) uncle who was a trappist. I never met him though so I don’t know what he thought about the changes (he was already quite old at the time of the council).

The Trappists were a renewal within the Benedictine Tradition themselves. It would be interesting to know whether they were encouraged to look back within Cistercian tradition or Benedictine tradition overall.

 

[JReducation]

The Trappists were a renewal within the Benedictine Tradition themselves. It would be interesting to know whether they were encouraged to look back within Cistercian tradition or Benedictine tradition overall.

The Trappists are a reform of the Cistercians. The reform came about because the Cistercian houses had grown so large that they had to relax some of their rules. Armand Rance, became abbot La Trappe Abbey, a Cistercian abbey. He recovered the strict observance of Cistercian life. The legal name of the Trappists is Order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance

Just for the record, what Armand Rance considered a relaxation of the ascetical life at a Cistercian house made boot camp look like a Boy Scout camping trip. The difference being that the monks were more civilized than Boy Scouts, but the “relaxed” regime was one that we today would find intolerable.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Dorothy]

I said this earlier but I will say it again, having a charismatic experience of the Holy Spirit within traditional Benedictine prayer and worship, and practicing the activities of the Charismatic Renewal within Benedictine life are not the same thing. And as for your first statement above, I am not concerned with finding anything which excludes it, I am looking for something to support it which you seem unable to provide. There would be no reason to exclude something in your tradition which is not going to be developed for 1500 years which they never could have predicted. And again, I recognize that it is a legitimate movement within the Catholic Church at large. And again, that was not the question or the topic at hand.

I have given you ample opportunity to provide any sort of evidence within Benedictine Tradition which would lend support for the incorporation of the Charismatic Renewal into Benedictine life. You have not done this. So, I am left to conclude that you are not aware of anything within the roots of the Benedictine Tradition which would suggest that the Charismatic Renewal is a legitimate manifestation of Benedictine Spirituality or has a legitimate role in Benedictine life.

I would like to share some of my understanding of charismatic renewal; I hope it can be helpful.

Back in 1976, one year after I became a part of the Lay Carmelites (O.Carm), I attended a day of prayer given by a Carmelite priest who was involved with the Catholic charismatic renewal. I began to attend, once a month, the days of prayer that this priest gave. I learned that he believed he was called to give spiritual direction to leaders in prayer groups, core group members, and those very much involved with the renewal.

He explained that many Catholics, not well catechized were leaving the Church and becoming “non-denominational” or going with other groups, due to their emotional involvement with the renewal.

At the days of prayer conducted by this priest he gave two conferences, with questions answered afterwards.
On his book table he had the Liturgy of the Hours, prayer cards of Carmelite saints, and other books such as “Way of Perfection”, (St. Teresa of Avila); and the poetry and commentary of St. John of the Cross. He did, also, give some talks on the charismatic gifts and the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

He wrote a short booklet explaining his opinion that what is called “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” or “renewal in the Holy Spirit” was the grace of infused contemplation and that it excited the person receiving it to have a fervor they didn’t have before.

When he celebrated Mass it was quiet and meditative. He instructed us that after receiving the Eucharist we were to remain silent with the Lord for fifteen minutes, listening to Him,and receiving from Him what we would like to share afterwards. If anyone broke the silence before the fifteen minutes was up, he would gently remind them to be silent until he said we could share.

There was an average of 25 people present. The sharing time was powerful! I learned so much over the years attending these monthly days of prayer.

In the time that I was involved in charismatic renewal I was asked to be leader of the group. I did what I could, but when I called for five minutes of silence, in the middle of our singing, praising, and scripture reading, I could sense that most people were antsy and couldn’t handle that. It was then that I started to question my involvement with the renewal. Not because the renewal was bad, but because it wasn’t where I needed to be any longer.

Saints received the charismatic gifts over ages past. All we need do is read about their lives and see it. Of course, at a specific point in their lives they already had the 7 Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most important gifts, that we can grow in if we are open. We do need to make a distinction of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit for us as individuals, and the charisms of the Holy Spirit that are given to us for others.

For a Catholic the Mass is the centerpiece of our faith!

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[jwinch2]

I would like to share some of my understanding of charismatic renewal; I hope it can be helpful.

Back in 1976, one year after I became a part of the Lay Carmelites (O.Carm), I attended a day of prayer given by a Carmelite priest who was involved with the Catholic charismatic renewal. I began to attend, once a month, the days of prayer that this priest gave. I learned that he believed he was called to give spiritual direction to leaders in prayer groups, core group members, and those very much involved with the renewal.

He explained that many Catholics, not well catechized were leaving the Church and becoming “non-denominational” or going with other groups, due to their emotional involvement with the renewal.

At the days of prayer conducted by this priest he gave two conferences, with questions answered afterwards.
On his book table he had the Liturgy of the Hours, prayer cards of Carmelite saints, and other books such as “Way of Perfection”, (St. Teresa of Avila); and the poetry and commentary of St. John of the Cross. He did, also, give some talks on the charismatic gifts and the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

He wrote a short booklet explaining his opinion that what is called “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” or “renewal in the Holy Spirit” was the grace of infused contemplation and that it excited the person receiving it to have a fervor they didn’t have before.

When he celebrated Mass it was quiet and meditative. He instructed us that after receiving the Eucharist we were to remain silent with the Lord for fifteen minutes, listening to Him,and receiving from Him what we would like to share afterwards. If anyone broke the silence before the fifteen minutes was up, he would gently remind them to be silent until he said we could share.

There was an average of 25 people present. The sharing time was powerful! I learned so much over the years attending these monthly days of prayer.

In the time that I was involved in charismatic renewal I was asked to be leader of the group. I did what I could, but when I called for five minutes of silence, in the middle of our singing, praising, and scripture reading, I could sense that most people were antsy and couldn’t handle that. It was then that I started to question my involvement with the renewal. Not because the renewal was bad, but because it wasn’t where I needed to be any longer.

Saints received the charismatic gifts over ages past. All we need do is read about their lives and see it. Of course, at a specific point in their lives they already had the 7 Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most important gifts, that we can grow in if we are open. We do need to make a distinction of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit for us as individuals, and the charisms of the Holy Spirit that are given to us for others.

For a Catholic the Mass is the centerpiece of our faith!

Peace,

Dorothy

Dorothy,

You provided some good information, thank you for that.

Just so that you are aware, my questions do not pertain to the legitimacy of the Charismatic Renewal in general. Multiple popes have endorsed it so, while it is not my cup of tea, I accept that it is legitimate and that many faithful Catholics find it efficacious. However, just because it is legitimate within the universal Church, does not mean that it is compatible with all aspects of Catholic Tradition or Spirituality. In this situation, we have been discussing certain Benedictine monasteries which have incorporated the Charismatic Renewal to some extent or other.

To date, I have seen nothing within the Benedictine or Monastic Tradition which suggests that it is appropriate to do so.

Thanks again, and peace,

 

[guanophore]

I would like to share some of my understanding of charismatic renewal; I hope it can be helpful.

Thank you so much for this! Your experience is nearly identical to mine, tho I sojourned out there on the surface for longer before I came to understand my need for silence.

He explained that many Catholics, not well catechized were leaving the Church and becoming “non-denominational” or going with other groups, due to their emotional involvement with the renewal.

Yes, I think this is still happening today, now that the Catholic Renewal has waned. People have emotional needs and are seeking to get them met with a form of spiritual practice that is ultimately quite shallow. It does feed theri emotions, but does not effect the deeper change that people really need.

I think people do not know how to be emotionally present to the Mass, so they say things like “I was not getting fed” or “it was boring”. If people could understand and apprehend the Mass they would not be leaving, or looking elsewhere, even to charismatic prayer groups, to get their needs met.

 At the days of prayer conducted by this priest he gave two conferences, with questions answered afterwards.

On his book table he had the Liturgy of the Hours, prayer cards of Carmelite saints, and other books such as “Way of Perfection”, (St. Teresa of Avila); and the poetry and commentary of St. John of the Cross. He did, also, give some talks on the charismatic gifts and the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

This is what puzzled me about Jason’s objection. There is nothing in the Charismatic Renewal that is not part of ancient Christian mystic tradition. It is simply a modern method of awakening spirituality in people that in the past was awakened in other ways.

He wrote a short booklet explaining his opinion that what is called “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” or “renewal in the Holy Spirit” was the grace of infused contemplation and that it excited the person receiving it to have a fervor they didn’t have before.

Yes! I also think that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal has not provided the spiritual guidance needed to many so that they can follow that ferver into deeper contemplation. That is why they remain on the surface in the emotional realm. I would love to read that booklet if you can PM me where I can get it.

When he celebrated Mass it was quiet and meditative.  He instructed us that after receiving the Eucharist we were to remain silent with the Lord for fifteen minutes, listening to Him,and receiving from Him what we would like to share afterwards.   If anyone broke the silence before the fifteen minutes was up, he would gently remind them to be silent until he said we could share.

This is what the Benedictines do when they conduct a Mass for any of the Charismatic groups. They also facilitate an AWESOME hour of Eucharistic Adoration. I have never seen so many charismatics quiet for so long!

I could sense that most people were antsy and couldn't handle that.   It was then that I started to question my involvement with the renewal.  Not because the renewal was bad, but because it wasn't where I needed to be any longer.

There is a great need of silence in our culture.

Saints received the charismatic gifts over ages past. All we need do is read about their lives and see it. Of course, at a specific point in their lives they already had the 7 Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most important gifts, that we can grow in if we are open. We do need to make a distinction of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit for us as individuals, and the charisms of the Holy Spirit that are given to us for others.

Indeed. The modern Catholic Charismatic Renewal has led folks to discover what has already been present in the faith for 2000 years. To me, living as a Charismatic just means living in the fullness of the HS. Historically, most folks have learned this way of life through religious orders. This “movement” has been the first widespread experience of lay persons to be affected by that infused contemplation. Unfortunately many of them did not follow it into the silence.

For a Catholic the Mass is the centerpiece of our faith!

If people were able to enter into the mystery of the Mass they would never hunger for any other form of worship and praise.

One think I am glad to see now is that most of the leaders and most committed members of the prayer groups over the last 40 years have become embedded in their parishes, serving in various roles both in and out of the Mass. Several “old timers” I know who have been leading prayer groups in my area for that long are now retiring, and noticing that there are no committed persons willing to take their place.

 

[guanophore]

 In this situation, we have been discussing certain Benedictine monasteries which have incorporated the Charismatic Renewal to some extent or other.

What does that look like? What activities were “incorporated” that you find unfitting?

To date, I have seen nothing within the Benedictine or Monastic Tradition which suggests that it is appropriate to do so.

Thanks again, and peace,

I can’t find anything in the Benedictine tradition that prohibits the Spirit filled life.

 

[jwinch2]

What does that look like? What activities were “incorporated” that you find unfitting?

You might try responding to the post I made to you above. You might have missed it since it was on the previous page. I will re-post it here:

I said this earlier but I will say it again, having a charismatic experience of the Holy Spirit within traditional Benedictine prayer and worship, and practicing the activities of the Charismatic Renewal within Benedictine life are not the same thing. And as for your first statement above, I am not concerned with finding anything which excludes it, I am looking for something to support it which you seem unable to provide. There would be no reason to exclude something in your tradition which is not going to be developed for 1500 years which they never could have predicted. And again, I recognize that it is a legitimate movement within the Catholic Church at large. And again, that was not the question or the topic at hand.

I have given you ample opportunity to provide any sort of evidence within Benedictine Tradition which would lend support for the incorporation of the Charismatic Renewal into Benedictine life. You have not done this. So, I am left to conclude that you are not aware of anything within the roots of the Benedictine Tradition which would suggest that the Charismatic Renewal is a legitimate manifestation of Benedictine Spirituality or has a legitimate role in Benedictine life.

 

[TimothyH]

Well I admit I am not an expert on the rule of St. Benedict, but when OCSO was founded, SO meant an extremely austere and penitential life. After Vatican II it seemed to morph into a bunch of guitar strumming hippies.

Well maybe that’s a bit overstating the case, but they tossed out all the ‘strict’ part of OCSO.

The Cistercians near me still get up at 3:30 AM to pray. They still fast on 10 oz of bread and water on Tuesdays and Thursdays if their health permits them to do so. They still eat a vegitarian diet unless the Abbot commands them to eat extra protein because of a health issue. They still pray seven hours every day. Unless charity demands that they speak, they still maintain grand silence from 7:00 PM until Mass the next morning - that means that half their life is spent in silence.

The hippies comment is really unfortunate.

-Tim-

 

[wasserfall]

The Trappists are a reform of the Cistercians. The reform came about because the Cistercian houses had grown so large that they had to relax some of their rules. Armand Rance, became abbot La Trappe Abbey, a Cistercian abbey. He recovered the strict observance of Cistercian life. The legal name of the Trappists is Order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance

Just for the record, what Armand Rance considered a relaxation of the ascetical life at a Cistercian house made boot camp look like a Boy Scout camping trip. The difference being that the monks were more civilized than Boy Scouts, but the “relaxed” regime was one that we today would find intolerable.

That’s what I’m getting at.
Why so lax today if Vatican II asked religious to return to their original way of life?

 

[Dorothy]

Dorothy,

You provided some good information, thank you for that.

Just so that you are aware, my questions do not pertain to the legitimacy of the Charismatic Renewal in general. Multiple popes have endorsed it so, while it is not my cup of tea, I accept that it is legitimate and that many faithful Catholics find it efficacious. However, just because it is legitimate within the universal Church, does not mean that it is compatible with all aspects of Catholic Tradition or Spirituality. In this situation, we have been discussing certain Benedictine monasteries which have incorporated the Charismatic Renewal to some extent or other.

To date, I have seen nothing within the Benedictine or Monastic Tradition which suggests that it is appropriate to do so.

Thanks again, and peace,

I agree with what you have written above and will continue to read the thread for further insights.

My reason for sharing what I did was to let others reading the thread have a bit more (name removed by moderator)ut.

Peace to you as well,

Dorothy

 

[JReducation]

That’s what I’m getting at.
Why so lax today if Vatican II asked religious to return to their original way of life?

Your consider Trappists lax?

Actually, the command of Perfectae Caritatis was multiple:

1. Renew the religious life by recovering the charism of the founder.
2. Simplify the religious life by getting rid of redundancies.
3. Implement justice in religious life by eliminating oppressive systems in the infrastructure
4. Eliminate unnecessary distinctions among the religious themselves
5. Adopt the apostolic work of the institute to the needs of today’s society in harmony with the original mission

There was never an expectation that the orders would like like their original version. The expectation was to take the original charism and bring out so as to make it more visible. For Cistercians those areas would be silence, solitude, LOTH and less work. The early Cistercians never did any work. They supported themselves with the money that they go from the tenant farmers on their lands. Their time was spend reading, studying and writing. Today, the have to do manual labor or run, dairies, bakeries or factories to support themselves. That cannot be helped. The day of the tenant farmer are gone.

Do you see what happened here?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I said this earlier but I will say it again, having a charismatic experience of the Holy Spirit within traditional Benedictine prayer and worship, and practicing the activities of the Charismatic Renewal within Benedictine life are not the same thing. And as for your first statement above, I am not concerned with finding anything which excludes it, I am looking for something to support it which you seem unable to provide. There would be no reason to exclude something in your tradition which is not going to be developed for 1500 years which they never could have predicted. And again, I recognize that it is a legitimate movement within the Catholic Church at large. And again, that was not the question or the topic at hand.

I have given you ample opportunity to provide any sort of evidence within Benedictine Tradition which would lend support for the incorporation of the Charismatic Renewal into Benedictine life. You have not done this. So, I am left to conclude that you are not aware of anything within the roots of the Benedictine Tradition which would suggest that the Charismatic Renewal is a legitimate manifestation of Benedictine Spirituality or has a legitimate role in Benedictine life.

I can see how this might be an interesting theoretical question, but if you aren’t a member of a Benedictine monastray or a third order that practices these charismatic actions, what difference does it make?

If the local monks wish to play guitars during their 3am prayers or raise their hands up during vespers, is that such a big deal?

 

[wasserfall]

Your consider Trappists lax?

This is no doubt that they are lax in comparison to their preconciliar life.

There was never an expectation that the orders would like like their original version. The expectation was to take the original charism and bring out so as to make it more visible. For Cistercians those areas would be silence, solitude, LOTH and less work. The early Cistercians never did any work.

So why are the trappists less silent today than before the council? Why are they less withdrawn today than before the council?

Do they really do less work than before the council? Somehow I kind of doubt it. The council didn’t give them an endowment.

 

[TimothyH]

Your consider Trappists lax?
Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Yea, all they do is sit around strumming their guitars all day.

-Tim-

 

[Mrs_Sally]

This is no doubt that they are lax in comparison to their preconciliar life.

So why are the trappists less silent today than before the council? Why are they less withdrawn today than before the council?

Do they really do less work than before the council? Somehow I kind of doubt it. The council didn’t give them an endowment.

You misread Br JR’s post. Early trappists had tenant farmers (lay people) who worked the land and paid rent. Now, trappists don’t have that and so have to suport themselves.

I would presume that the tenant framers were gone long before Vatican II and that there was a period when they were doing so much physical work that they were neglecting their charism to study and pray the LOTH. Post VII reforms may indeed have helped them reorder their priorities toward study. I bet that the some agricultural and technological updates have helped them support themselves with less physical labor also.

 

[agnes_therese]

This is no doubt that they are lax in comparison to their preconciliar life.
So why are the trappists less silent today than before the council? Why are they less withdrawn today than before the council?

As Brother JR said, they have to work to support themselves now. I don’t see what’s so difficult to understand about that.

Do they really do less work than before the council? Somehow I kind of doubt it. The council didn’t give them an endowment.

That’s exactly the opposite of what Brother JR said. He said the **early ** Cistercians didn’t work.

You should go back and read his post again, you’ve got it all backwards.

 

[wasserfall]

You misread Br JR’s post. Early trappists had tenant farmers (lay people) who worked the land and paid rent. Now, trappists don’t have that and so have to suport themselves.

Right, but he said that they would want to work less to recover their charism.
I don’t see how the council could possibly have helped them to work less.

Technology may be helping, as you note, but apart from technological assistance, the work situation didn’t change after the council. They still had to support themselves in some way.