Spirituality of religious orders in Catholic tradition

[iloveangels]

I’m sorry, but where do you see such a thing? 1st, if Mother Teresa is a mystic based on some experiences, than all those other folks having experiences are mystics, too. WHY is the Church not interested? Because maybe, possibly, it might not be anything? Or because priests hate the idea of parishioners with extraordinary experiences and haven’t a clue what to do with that, how to advise them, even if they deign to acknowledge that what happened might have actually happened?

There’s no structure, place, office or resource for folks to contact who just want to know what’s happening to them. You may believe the Church cares, it does not. I know a woman who had Jesus appear to her during Mass and heal her. She had before and after xrays. Her priest commented, “God doesn’t work that way,” and walked off. If the Church cared, soccer moms wouldn’t be wandering into New Age book stores because their Pastor doesn’t want to hear about their transcendental experience and the only thing they can find that even tries to explain what they experienced is outside the Church.

It isn’t like you can call up the “Office of Spiritual Direction” and make an appointment.

And here’s a question:* why can’t we?*

So, unless you have some sort of evidence of caring, seriously, I think it’s nice you have this faith, but I’m not seeing it anywhere.

I think that talking about the difficulties of finding a spiritual director is probably another thread, a new one. It might be a good one, and you might get some good (name removed by moderator)ut from people if they saw that in today’s list, and that might be helpful for you. (and all of us!)

And we seem to have veered off the topic of Spirituality of religious orders in the Catholic tradition. I"m not sure what the exact topic boundaries in this place are, but I’d rather this long, but very good, thread not get shut down for getting off topic. They do that around here, you know. We were talking about Mother Teresa and the Sisters of Charity, I think. And the nature of the rule that they use, and their charism.

 

[iloveangels]

I’m sorry, but where do you see such a thing? 1st, if Mother Teresa is a mystic based on some experiences, than all those other folks having experiences are mystics, too. WHY is the Church not interested? Because maybe, possibly, it might not be anything? Or because priests hate the idea of parishioners with extraordinary experiences and haven’t a clue what to do with that, how to advise them, even if they deign to acknowledge that what happened might have actually happened?

There’s no structure, place, office or resource for folks to contact who just want to know what’s happening to them. You may believe the Church cares, it does not. I know a woman who had Jesus appear to her during Mass and heal her. She had before and after xrays. Her priest commented, “God doesn’t work that way,” and walked off. If the Church cared, soccer moms wouldn’t be wandering into New Age book stores because their Pastor doesn’t want to hear about their transcendental experience and the only thing they can find that even tries to explain what they experienced is outside the Church.

It isn’t like you can call up the “Office of Spiritual Direction” and make an appointment.

And here’s a question:* why can’t we?*

So, unless you have some sort of evidence of caring, seriously, I think it’s nice you have this faith, but I’m not seeing it anywhere.

In the case of the lady who was healed, I’m not sure exactly what you wanted the priest to do.

In the case of the soccer mom, she should stay out of the New Age bookstore and read paragraphs 2115-2117 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Below is the link.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a1.htm#III

This is not a modern topic, and in fact this sort of thing has been around for centuries in the prevailing culture and much has been written on it in the Catholic church, and in other sorts of literature too, because these things can have many origins.

 

[iloveangels]

In the case of the lady who was healed, I’m not sure exactly what you wanted the priest to do.

In the case of the soccer mom, she should stay out of the New Age bookstore and read paragraphs 2115-2117 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Below is the link.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a1.htm#III

This is not a modern topic, and in fact this sort of thing has been around for centuries in the prevailing culture and much has been written on it in the Catholic church, and in other sorts of literature too, because these things can have many origins.

Soooo…Now, returning to the topic, which is “Spirituality of religious orders in Catholic tradition.” I think we were talking about Mother Teresa of Calcutta, her congregation, the rule they use, the constitution they use, and how they only serve the poor, as some orders do.*

 

[Julia_Mae]

In the case of the lady who was healed, I’m not sure exactly what you wanted the priest to do.

Well, it would have been nice if he hadn’t contradicted Church teaching and told the woman God wouldn’t heal her. It would have been polite to listen to her and see if she needed some counselling from him around that instead of rudely walk away.

In the case of the soccer mom…

But the issue under discussion is your statement that the Church is interested in the mystical experiences of the faithful. The Church is not, and your response just supports what I said: people’s recourse is not to the Church but to some advice from strangers on forums.

But I think we are wandering far off-topic here, anyway.

 

[Alfonsus]

You know, I believe most of the real Catholic mystics are unknown to the world, or even to the Church. Although “extraordinary phenomena” such as vision, healing, locution, etc, etc, etc are possible, and someone may experience them without ever being a mystic, a true mystic can undergo mystical experience without all those “extraordinary phenomena” at all.

Sometimes the Church only recognize someone as a mystic when the person died and a canonization process is opened for the person. Studying the person life, writings, the person relation with God can be a shocking revelation regarding the depth and intensity of “union” so-to-speak between the person and God, but not necessarily showing any “extraordinary phenomena.”

Thus the person is attributed as a mystic because of the person intense and deep union with God.

Regarding mysticism and spirituality of orders within the Church, I heard the Carmelite is aiming to experience the union with God already here on earth.
I searched but not getting the exact quote.

 

[iloveangels]

You know, I believe most of the real Catholic mystics are unknown to the world, or even to the Church. Although “extraordinary phenomena” such as vision, healing, locution, etc, etc, etc are possible, and someone may experience them without ever being a mystic, a true mystic can undergo mystical experience without all those “extraordinary phenomena” at all.

Sometimes the Church only recognize someone as a mystic when the person died and a canonization process is opened for the person. Studying the person life, writings, the person relation with God can be a shocking revelation regarding the depth and intensity of “union” so-to-speak between the person and God, but not necessarily showing any “extraordinary phenomena.”

Thus the person is attributed as a mystic because of the person intense and deep union with God.

Regarding mysticism and spirituality of orders within the Church, I heard the Carmelite is aiming to experience the union with God already here on earth.
I searched but not getting the exact quote.

Exactly. You said it much better than I could have, Alphonsus. The Carmelites do have many books on this and St. Teresa of Avila taught much on this spiritual progression towards God in prayer. This is what her Interior Castle was about.

And it’s not the “signs and wonders” which are important. It’s the growth in holiness and union that’s important, which is always heralded by growth in virtue. This is why they even look at certain people for canonization purposes… and sometimes get a surprise, as you say.

For example, St. Therese of Lisieux was one person who was and is misunderstood. If you read more than “Story of a Soul,” there is more to the story. She underwent a very dark night towards the end of her life. She was amazing, in a way most of the world doesn’t even suspect. Many of the women who lived right in the same house with her didn’t realize what was going on, even after she died. Her confessor did and the mother superior did. They silently watched it unfold in awe. She was a little flower yes, but if you look at her pictures, a rarity–a saint with pictures–you see in her eyes a young woman with a will like fine carbide steel, and a lot to teach the world because she did it straight as an arrow, even though she died in the same town where she was born and raised. That’s why she’s a doctor of the church.

BTW, she achieved mystical union with God and there really weren’t a lot of wild manifestations, ie. floating around the room and all that. But it was genuine and solid. I believe she was only 24 when she died.

 

[TrueLight]

Exactly. You said it much better than I could have, Alphonsus. The Carmelites do have many books on this and St. Teresa of Avila taught much on this spiritual progression towards God in prayer. This is what her Interior Castle was about.

And it’s not the “signs and wonders” which are important. It’s the growth in holiness and union that’s important, which is always heralded by growth in virtue. This is why they even look at certain people for canonization purposes… and sometimes get a surprise, as you say.

For example, St. Therese of Lisieux was one person who was and is misunderstood. If you read more than “Story of a Soul,” there is more to the story. She underwent a very dark night towards the end of her life. She was amazing, in a way most of the world doesn’t even suspect. Many of the women who lived right in the same house with her didn’t realize what was going on, even after she died. Her confessor did and the mother superior did. They silently watched it unfold in awe. She was a little flower yes, but if you look at her pictures, a rarity–a saint with pictures–you see in her eyes a young woman with a will like fine carbide steel, and a lot to teach the world because she did it straight as an arrow, even though she died in the same town where she was born and raised. That’s why she’s a doctor of the church.

BTW, she achieved mystical union with God and there really weren’t a lot of wild manifestations, ie. floating around the room and all that. But it was genuine and solid. I believe she was only 24 when she died.

Actually, she does mention that she spent a lot of time in a “dark night” in Story of a Soul.

She was 24 and I just read the account of the “good death” she had, which was documented by her sister. Amazing!

 

[iloveangels]

There have been lay saints who have attained union in this way. For example St. Catherine of Siena, who was a lay Dominican. The Dominicans and Franciscans usually have lists of them on their websites…LOL.

 

[iloveangels]

Actually, she does mention that she spent a lot of time in a “dark night” in Story of a Soul.

She was 24 and I just read the account of the “good death” she had, which was documented by her sister. Amazing!

Yes, if you just read “Story of a Soul,” you get half the story. There is a book after that, called I think, “Her Last Conversations” or something like that. It’s about the same size at the first book but has a lot more information about what happened.

Her mystical union with God was direct and she was resolute about it even in the darkness which was dark indeed. There really were no strange “phenomena” to speak of. Many of the women she lived with in the convent passed her off as a little girl. They had no clue, some of them even after she died, what they had been witnessing.

She did it for the world and for the Church and because she loved God. She wanted to be a missionary, but of course, here she was stuck in this little French town. Thousands of men took the first biography all over the world with them in their gear during the 1st world war.

In the early '90s, the order sent her reliquary on a worldwide trip with stops all over. It was here in the United States for months. I saw it twice.

 

[TrueLight]

Yes, if you just read “Story of a Soul,” you get half the story. There is a book after that, called I think, “Her Last Conversations” or something like that. It’s about the same size at the first book but has a lot more information about what happened.

Okay. Cool.

Edited: Actually that might already be at the end of the Kindle book I have. Which is how I was able to read about her death and now I’m reading accounts of some of her conversation by a novice.

 

[iloveangels]

Okay. Cool.

Edited: Actually that might already be at the end of the Kindle book I have. Which is how I was able to read about her death and now I’m reading accounts of some of her conversation by a novice.

Yes, the second book is about as long as the first. It was released by ICS publications in Washington DC, which is the printery of the Carmelite Order (OCD). It’s kind of hard to find.

ISBN #: 0-9600876-3-X

What’s interesting is that they’re finding out that Mother Teresa of Calcutta had a similar experience. And apparently very few people knew.

 

[Dorothy]

Exactly. You said it much better than I could have, Alphonsus. The Carmelites do have many books on this and St. Teresa of Avila taught much on this spiritual progression towards God in prayer. This is what her Interior Castle was about.

And it’s not the “signs and wonders” which are important. It’s the growth in holiness and union that’s important, which is always heralded by growth in virtue. This is why they even look at certain people for canonization purposes… and sometimes get a surprise, as you say.

For example, St. Therese of Lisieux was one person who was and is misunderstood. If you read more than “Story of a Soul,” there is more to the story. She underwent a very dark night towards the end of her life. She was amazing, in a way most of the world doesn’t even suspect. Many of the women who lived right in the same house with her didn’t realize what was going on, even after she died. Her confessor did and the mother superior did. They silently watched it unfold in awe. She was a little flower yes, but if you look at her pictures, a rarity–a saint with pictures–you see in her eyes a young woman with a will like fine carbide steel, and a lot to teach the world because she did it straight as an arrow, even though she died in the same town where she was born and raised. That’s why she’s a doctor of the church.

BTW, she achieved mystical union with God and there really weren’t a lot of wild manifestations, ie. floating around the room and all that. But it was genuine and solid. I believe she was only 24 when she died.

Thanks for your post! And now St. Therese of Lisieux is a Doctor of the Church. Many describe her as the greatest saint of modern times.

It is my understanding that the grace of union with Christ is available to all, in different measure. I agree with the post that said there are unknown people around the world who, with the grace of God, have achieved that union. The grace is available; we can receive it if we will. It takes our cooperation with the graces received in prayer and the Sacraments.

I am also grateful to St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross for their descriptions of the journey to the Lord.

 

[iloveangels]

Thanks for your post! And now St. Therese of Lisieux is a Doctor of the Church. Many describe her as the greatest saint of modern times.

It is my understanding that the grace of union with Christ is available to all, in different measure. I agree with the post that said there are unknown people around the world who, with the grace of God, have achieved that union. The grace is available; we can receive it if we will. It takes our cooperation with the graces received in prayer and the Sacraments.

I am also grateful to St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross for their descriptions of the journey to the Lord.

We’re back on topic! After talking about Franciscans and Dominicans, we’re getting a little look at Carmel now.

There is a new group forming now in order to create a forum in the groups section where we can post links to these threads about third orders so they’re easier to find. It’s called “Third Order Conversation Links.” Please feel free to join us. I will be setting up the forum when we get more than 10 members.

 

[Julia_Mae]

You know, I believe most of the real Catholic mystics are unknown to the world, or even to the Church. Although “extraordinary phenomena” such as vision, healing, locution, etc, etc, etc are possible, and someone may experience them without ever being a mystic, a true mystic can undergo mystical experience without all those “extraordinary phenomena” at all…

I was talking about extraordinary experience, not necessarily “phenomena.” What would be an example of a mystical experience that would not also be an extraordinay one? I do agree the the majority of mystics is probably unknown.

 

[iloveangels]

I was talking about extraordinary experience, not necessarily “phenomena.” What would be an example of a mystical experience that would not also be an extraordinay one? I do agree the the majority of mystics is probably unknown.

I’m not sure what you mean by “mystical experiences,” Julia. Human beings are very complicated and there can be all sorts of “experiences” that they can have, and they can have a lot of origins.

For a Catholic, all religious experiences are subject to the church, meaning that private revelations are just that…private, and they don’t “trump” church teaching. All private revelations, even those of the saints, aren’t considered much in themselves unless or until they culminate in growth in holiness. As Alfonsus said earlier, when they discover that someone has had these experiences like St. Therese, it’s most often because their sainthood cause examines their life so thoroughly that this finally comes to light.

And yes, sometimes ordinary people do have genuine experiences in the religious realm–I’ve known people who have–but it’s important not to insist on them or make them more than they are. Growth in holiness is far more important and should “trump” all these things for a Catholic.

What about other mystical experiences?

Some experiences are occult in nature. Catholics are not allowed to engage in the occult. It’s a serious sin.

Some experiences are medical or psychological in nature, and aren’t really religious even though they may seem to be. Imagination and emotion can play a big role in these.

 

[iloveangels]

The Church is 2000 years old, and has a lot of experience with human beings and these kinds of things. There is a discipline called “mystical theology,” and many Carmelites are very well versed in it, and they will tell you exactly what St. John of the Cross said about these things. These things can be a hindrance to the Christian life because people tend to dwell on them and forget about growing as Christians as a result. It’s best to let them go and take their proper place, even though it can seem quite difficult to do so sometimes.

We’re still talking about the Carmelites. There are many of them on this board. Maybe one will chime in here…

 

[Julia_Mae]

I’m not sure what you mean by “mystical experiences,” Julia.

Well, it was Alphonses’ phrase in his post I was responding to, so maybe ask him, like I did:

Originally Posted by Alfonsus
You know, I believe most of the real Catholic mystics are unknown to the world, or even to the Church. Although “extraordinary phenomena” such as vision, healing, locution, etc, etc, etc are possible, and someone may experience them without ever being a mystic, a true mystic can undergo mystical experience without all those “extraordinary phenomena” at all…

 

[Alfonsus]

I label them “extraordinary phenomena” because they are phenomena and they are extraordinary, but not necessarily means mystical or divine in nature.
Those phenomena happening do not makes someone a mystic in the Church eye, do not always divine in origin, can also be diabolic.
I chose that term because it is neutral, without necessarily giving judgement regarding the cause.

The problem is, I believe, the Church give the label “mystic,” to someone who shows proof that lived a mystical way, that is living union with God to extraordinary degree, while colloquially we say a mystic is someone who experienced “extraordinary spiritual things” (what I called “extraordinary phenomena”) in their life.

St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross talk about those things as hindrance and give advise: ignore them. If it came from the devil, the person gain much in ignoring them. If it came from self, the person gain much because your focus, to love God, is intact. If it came from God, you gain much, because your purpose is to love God, totally and purely, with or without consolation or extraordinary graces.

I believe the Church put their advice to heart. When canonization is opened, a person life and union with God is examined, extraordinary graces and charisms sometimes are disposed.
Regarding private revelation, the same thing is done. The content of revelation is examined against the Church living tradition and magisterium. If ever found beneficial for the Church, the content is proclaimed but the parcel is changed. It is separated from the private revelation, and repack in the Church living teaching.

One instance I remember clearly is Blessed John Paul II encyclical: Dives in Misericordia. He talked about Divine Mercy, and we knew his devotion to Divine Mercy. But when he presented the Divine Mercy to the whole Church, not a single reference to St. Faustina’s private revelation was given. The whole thing revolve around Scripture.

When the Feast of Divine Mercy was fixed to the Church calendar, not a single reference to private revelation was quoted. It was solely the Church act.

That is why private revelation never binding on Catholic faithful. Someone may take nothing of Divine Mercy apparation and private revelation, but can in good conscience love Divine Mercy and celebrate it trough the Church liturgy and teaching.

I think the same is true regarding the Sacred Heart.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I label them “extraordinary phenomena” because they are phenomena and they are extraordinary, but not necessarily means mystical or divine in nature.

Here was my question:

What would be an example of a mystical experience that would not also be an extraordinay one?

Can you describe to me a mystical experience that is not extraordinary in nature?

In other words, someone says, “I had a mystical experience, it was not extraordinary.” What would they be talking about?

 

[Dorothy]

The Church is 2000 years old, and has a lot of experience with human beings and these kinds of things. There is a discipline called “mystical theology,” and many Carmelites are very well versed in it, and they will tell you exactly what St. John of the Cross said about these things. These things can be a hindrance to the Christian life because people tend to dwell on them and forget about growing as Christians as a result. It’s best to let them go and take their proper place, even though it can seem quite difficult to do so sometimes.

We’re still talking about the Carmelites. There are many of them on this board. Maybe one will chime in here…

I’ll try!

I remember being taught by a Carmelite priest who was teaching about St. John of the Cross, that when one experiences some kind of phenomena, that they should just let it go because if it was from the Lord then it has already done the good it was meant to do. Just imagine someone who may have smelled roses or incense, or other experiences, and then go on and on about it, with admiring thoughts (or maybe disgusted thoughts), from those who are listening. That would be a distraction to that person’s spiritual journey.

Sometimes in group discussions when the person is matter-of-fact about it and doesn’t attach importance to what they experienced, it is okay. Discernment is necessary. (I’m talking about retreat shared discussions.)

Of course one can and should talk about such things with their confessor and/or spiritual director, but such directors can be hard to find. Retreats and days of prayer given by Carmelite priests may have a question and answer time and their questions can be understood and answered there. Sometimes it would require a private conversation and there would be time for that. And, there may be priests other than Carmelites who understand and can guide as well. (They are hard to find, but they do exist.)

I hope what I stated helps…I am not an expert!

Dorothy, T. O. C.