Split: 4 questions for Catholics

[LightBearer7]

To All Catholics,

I am a Reformed Protestant, attending a Baptist church, and as I have surveyed the different posts on this subject, a couple of questions present themselves to me.

First, where in Scripture is baptism presented as necessary for salvation?

Second, is it accepted Catholic doctrine to believe that innocent people dont go to hell?

Finally, is purgatory still an accepted doctrine in Catholicism?

Also, I want to offer a quick response to the question, “Do Children Go To Hell?”

While I do believe that all of mankind is sinfully depraved, I think God judges people on their knowledge and comprehension of Him. Romans teaches that all men know in their heart there is a God. All men can see Creation and Creation alone is enough to damn someone if they fail to acknowledge the Creator. So if someone doesn’t hear of Christ, they are still damned.

So if Children, be they unborn, newborn, or early childhood, die before the so called “age of accountability,” do they go to Hell?

To my mind, the answer is, “NO!”

While the Word does not concern itself primarily with this topic, there is one passage that indirectly states and suggests that young children are not damned if they die, a passage which ALMOST seems to advocate an “age of accountability” though I do not believe that such an age exists.

This passage is 2 Samuel 12:21-23. David says something about his child which is greatly suggestive. He says, in essence, “Can I bring him back again? No. I can go to him but he cannot come to me.” David was, of course, not saying that he would go to Hell and see his dead child. Neither was he suggesting he would descend into death and be annihilated, a form of nothingness, and in that sense be with his child. David said that he would see the child again and he found hope in this.

How could this be, unless God, in His divine mercy, grace, and goodness, apply the blood of Christ and His sacred atonement to the child who had never had a chance to comprehend God or his own sinfulness? Who had never had the opportunity to say one word of faith, or doubt, in life? I believe that God is a judge, a just judge, but I also believe He is a merciful Father.

While I cannot state this in a way that ought be pronounced as a doctrine, I can say that I believe God, in His sacred will, does what is greatest for His glory and our good, IN THAT ORDER!

Thanks.

 

[followingtheway]

First, where in Scripture is baptism presented as necessary for salvation?

I’m talking children by the way not unbaptized babies. Second of all, we don’t know where unbaptized babies go, but we believe in baptismal regeneration because of this Bible verse…

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:5[/BIBLEDRB]

Second, is it accepted Catholic doctrine to believe that innocent people dont go to hell?

No, we believe only God knows where Non-Catholics go when they die.

Finally, is purgatory still an accepted doctrine in Catholicism?

Yes but Purgatory is NOT Limbo. Limbo is not an accepted doctrine. Purgatory is the doctrine that people who die in venial (small) sin or the punishment due to sin but die in God’s friendship go to it. Limbo however is unofficial doctrine that says that unbaptized babies go there, that is rejected by the Church.

Also, I want to offer a quick response to the question, “Do Children Go To Hell?”

While I do believe that all of mankind is sinfully depraved, I think God judges people on their knowledge and comprehension of Him. Romans teaches that all men know in their heart there is a God. All men can see Creation and Creation alone is enough to damn someone if they fail to acknowledge the Creator. So if someone doesn’t hear of Christ, they are still damned.

So if Children, be they unborn, newborn, or early childhood, die before the so called “age of accountability,” do they go to Hell?

To my mind, the answer is, “NO!”

While the Word does not concern itself primarily with this topic, there is one passage that indirectly states and suggests that young children are not damned if they die, a passage which ALMOST seems to advocate an “age of accountability” though I do not believe that such an age exists.

This passage is 2 Samuel 12:21-23. David says something about his child which is greatly suggestive. He says, in essence, “Can I bring him back again? No. I can go to him but he cannot come to me.” David was, of course, not saying that he would go to Hell and see his dead child. Neither was he suggesting he would descend into death and be annihilated, a form of nothingness, and in that sense be with his child. David said that he would see the child again and he found hope in this.

How could this be, unless God, in His divine mercy, grace, and goodness, apply the blood of Christ and His sacred atonement to the child who had never had a chance to comprehend God or his own sinfulness? Who had never had the opportunity to say one word of faith, or doubt, in life? I believe that God is a judge, a just judge, but I also believe He is a merciful Father.

While I cannot state this in a way that ought be pronounced as a doctrine, I can say that I believe God, in His sacred will, does what is greatest for His glory and our good, IN THAT ORDER!

Thanks.

Thank you for your thoughts.

God bless :byzsoc:

David

 

[LightBearer7]

I’m talking children by the way not unbaptized babies. Second of all, we don’t know where unbaptized babies go, but we believe in baptismal regeneration because of this Bible verse…

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:5[/BIBLEDRB]

While that verse is indeed indicative at first glance, how do you fit the other passages (Such as Ephesians 2:8-9) into that concept? Baptism is a symbol, instigated by Christ and performed by John the Baptist, but I could also point towards Mark 16:16 in which Christ says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” At first, it appears He advocates baptismal regeneration, until you read the second half of that verse. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE YOU ARE CONDEMNED…not if you aren’t baptized.

Also, consider Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 1:14-17. Why would he say Christ sent him not to baptize if baptism is necessary for salvation? Baptism is an act of faith, as 1 Peter 3:21 says, “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Baptism is a declaration to God that you seek a clear conscience and a holy life. But it is not central or even vital to or congruent with salvation. So:

a. If it was the liquid water that literally took away the sins, then future sins would not be taken away unless a person was baptized again and again.
b. It is not the water that is special, but rather the water as the identification with the blood of Christ.
c. The Bible does not say people cannot have sins washed away without baptism. God is capable of taking away the sins of the thief on the cross, as well as early Christians who were martyred before they had the opportunity to be baptized.
d. So it is not the drops of water that take away anything. Rather it is the pledge of a good conscience before God that connects us with Christ’s blood, and baptism is an acknowledgment—an emblem, of that.”

And I could also ask about the thief on the Cross, and even Christ Himself. The thief never received Baptism, yet Christ spoke as if he was saved. Christ underwent baptism, for what reason? Did he need it? Was he unsaved until then? Or did he do it so that the sacrament of baptism could be demonstrated to his followers, and so that he could follow along within the guidelines of his father’s channels and receive the Spirit’s power?

No, we believe only God knows where Non-Catholics go when they die.

Well…God knows but if someone is unsaved, you can kind of take a guess. Scripture is quite clear on that, but I believe you understand that and as such, I digress.

Yes but Purgatory is NOT Limbo. Limbo is not an accepted doctrine. Purgatory is the doctrine that people who die in venial (small) sin or the punishment due to sin but die in God’s friendship go to it. Limbo however is unofficial doctrine that says that unbaptized babies go there, that is rejected by the Church.

Where on earth (figuratively) do you find any such concept of “purgatory” though?

 

[Michael_Francis]

[IMG ]http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/Off-Topic--Alert.gif[/IMG]

Split because it posed new off topic questions on an established thread and would have derailed it.

 

[Abu]

LightBearer7
Where on earth (figuratively) do you find any such concept of “purgatory” though?

Not having the full Bible canonised by Christ’s Church is a real problem

The doctrine of Purgatory is found in 2 Maccabees 12:46: "“It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”

 

[Nita]

Quote:
LightBearer7
Where on earth (figuratively) do you find any such concept of “purgatory” though?

Also,
1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though **he himself **will be saved, but only as through fire.

Matt.12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
(Implies that there are some sins that will be forgiven after death (age to come).

Rev. 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
(Any sin is “unclean” - even a small one. Those who die with any sin in their being (mind/heart/…) must be cleansed of it before they can enter heaven.)

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=LightBearer7;8451239]To All Catholics,

I am a Reformed Protestant, attending a Baptist church, and as I have surveyed the different posts on this subject, a couple of questions present themselves to me.

First, where in Scripture is baptism presented as necessary for salvation?

Yes, other have posted the answer I do not need to repeat them.

Second, is it accepted Catholic doctrine to believe that innocent people dont go to hell?

No. The Judgement of the non Christian or those in ignorance Is in the Hands of God. We Pray for his mercy on them as we pray for his mercy on us.

Finally, is purgatory still an accepted doctrine in Catholicism?

Yes, that at the Time of death and judgement All who are saved will be completely cleansed (Purged of the stain of sin)

Also, I want to offer a quick response to the question, “Do Children Go To Hell?”

If you are Talking of the Unbaptized infant here and Our belief that the Child should be baptized as soon as possible. the Answer is we do not know. What we know is that Christ said to be baptized How God’s mercy and grace is conveyed to them we do not know, This is why there is the theological idea of Limbo. Limbo is not a docturine. It is the idea that the those that were not baptized can not go to heaven, but as they are innocent are not condemed to Hell. God’s justice is greater than that. So its Limbo which is saying we trust in gods mercy because we just don’t know.

 

[Kay_Cee]

To All Catholics,

I am a Reformed Protestant, attending a Baptist church, and as I have surveyed the different posts on this subject, a couple of questions present themselves to me.

First, where in Scripture is baptism presented as necessary for salvation?

First, please show where Scripture says that everything must be presented in Scripture.

Second, is it accepted Catholic doctrine to believe that innocent people dont go to hell?

We leave the judging up to God.

Finally, is purgatory still an accepted doctrine in Catholicism?

Please define what you think purgatory is. In my experience, many non-Catholics misunderstand what the Church means by it.

 

[You]

While that verse is indeed indicative at first glance, how do you fit the other passages (Such as Ephesians 2:8-9) into that concept? Baptism is a symbol, instigated by Christ and performed by John the Baptist, but I could also point towards Mark 16:16 in which Christ says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” At first, it appears He advocates baptismal regeneration, until you read the second half of that verse. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE YOU ARE CONDEMNED…not if you aren’t baptized.

Also, consider Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 1:14-17. Why would he say Christ sent him not to baptize if baptism is necessary for salvation? Baptism is an act of faith, as 1 Peter 3:21 says, “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Baptism is a declaration to God that you seek a clear conscience and a holy life. But it is not central or even vital to or congruent with salvation. So:

a. If it was the liquid water that literally took away the sins, then future sins would not be taken away unless a person was baptized again and again.
b. It is not the water that is special, but rather the water as the identification with the blood of Christ.
c. The Bible does not say people cannot have sins washed away without baptism. God is capable of taking away the sins of the thief on the cross, as well as early Christians who were martyred before they had the opportunity to be baptized.
d. So it is not the drops of water that take away anything. Rather it is the pledge of a good conscience before God that connects us with Christ’s blood, and baptism is an acknowledgment—an emblem, of that.”

And I could also ask about the thief on the Cross, and even Christ Himself. The thief never received Baptism, yet Christ spoke as if he was saved. Christ underwent baptism, for what reason? Did he need it? Was he unsaved until then? Or did he do it so that the sacrament of baptism could be demonstrated to his followers, and so that he could follow along within the guidelines of his father’s channels and receive the Spirit’s power?

God commissioned the Apostles to go to all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father etc.
And baptism in Christ’s mind was this;
Unless you are baptized with water and the Holy Spirit you cannot enter etc.

I cannot tell you how many times I have heard protestants of all shades tie themselves in knots trying to account for the water. But at the end of the day the water is there in Christ’s words and water is water.
I’d advise anyone to stop reforming themselves if reforming means trying to decide what is the very least one can do to, in conscience, get away with being Christian.
Both Christ’s words and all of the Apostles words must work in harmony, you cannot afford to put aside Jesus’s words because you interpret Paul or someone else saying something else.

Well…God knows but if someone is unsaved, you can kind of take a guess. Scripture is quite clear on that, but I believe you understand that and as such, I digress.

Where on earth (figuratively) do you find any such concept of “purgatory” though?

Purgatory is that place or state which is described by Christ as being a prison from which the sinner, or one who owes, will not be released until they have paid the very last farthing. [a farthing in oldish England was a quarter of a penny, so its very small]

This place Christ mentions is not heaven - as heaven is not a prison.
Nor is this place Hell - as no-one is released from hell.
This place is a third place from which one is released when their debt is paid in full, to the very last farthing.

 

[LightBearer7]

So the idea of purgatory is advocated in the Apocrypha, not, say the King James Version or the English Standard Version?

To Nita, I appreciate you presenting Scripture as basis for your belief. However, those passages suggest, to my mind anyway, no such concept.

**1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. **

This only suggests that if a man lives a life pursuing vain and worthless things, he will be saved from damnation, but only at the loss of his life’s labor. He will enter heaven “as through fire,” only being saved because his foundation is Christ and by Christ’s blood his sins are cleansed. This suggests, to me, that the man is being brought through the trying fires and, to him, those fires are like the fires of hell; his life was lived worthlessly and sinfully and if not for Christ he would have been cast into the fire.

Matt.12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
(Implies that there are some sins that will be forgiven after death (age to come).

The only implication I see is that the unforgivable sin is just that, unforgivable. Saying that such a statement indicates some sins will be forgiven in the future age is a slight stretch. I would say that we first need to establish what this “unforgivable sin” is and WHY it won’t be forgiven. BBBUUUTTT I have already gotten this post split because of off topic subjects SSSSOOOO I will digress on this subject to a later date.

Rev. 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
(Any sin is “unclean” - even a small one. Those who die with any sin in their being (mind/heart/…) must be cleansed of it before they can enter heaven.)

Thus the Blood of CHRIST! All who are not covered in Christ’s blood are damned, all who are shall be saved. To suggest that the sins of believers must be cleansed in a “holding-tank” for a certain amount of time based on their wickedness and disobedience makes Christ’s blood of little to no repute. His blood is insufficent to save, insufficient to cleanse, and insufficient to take us to righteousness; He tried to do it now we have to finish it ourselves. I know this is not what you believe, to an extent, but I fear that this is the direct conclusion one must reach if they hold to this concept of purgatory.

"He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since He did this once for all when He offered up himself." Hebrews 7:27 (ESV)

This verse says a sacrifice once for all; not ever so often, not sometimes, or even after death. Christ’s sacrifice is either fully sufficient or it is a complete and utter failure. Since He is God I imagine it was probably the former, since all He does is good and perfect.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV)

This suggests total and complete cleansing. No good work on earth can keep you from purgatory, because you cannot be headed there if your sins are as white as snow!

I do not mean to say anything in an offensive way, and apologize in advance if I do so…

Responses to others’ post coming soon!

 

[Odell]

T
First, where in Scripture is baptism presented as necessary for salvation?

Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life.

Gal 3:27 “for all of you who were** baptized into Christ** have clothed yourselves with Christ”.

This is not symbolic. So my question to you is can one be saved who is not in Christ Jesus?

While I do believe that all of mankind is sinfully depraved, I think God judges people on their knowledge and comprehension of Him. Romans teaches that all men know in their heart there is a God. All men can see Creation and Creation alone is enough to damn someone if they fail to acknowledge the Creator. So if someone doesn’t hear of Christ, they are still damned.

Scripture tells us that all who earnestly seek god will enter the kingdom of God. But we know this cant be done without Christ

So if Children, be they unborn, newborn, or early childhood, die before the so called “age of accountability,” do they go to Hell?

To my mind, the answer is, “NO!”

Do you believe faith is necessary for salvation?

Ill get back to that question

While that verse is indeed indicative at first glance, how do you fit the other passages (Such as Ephesians 2:8-9) into that concept? Baptism is a symbol, instigated by Christ and performed by John the Baptist, but I could also point towards Mark 16:16 in which Christ says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” At first, it appears He advocates baptismal regeneration, until you read the second half of that verse. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE YOU ARE CONDEMNED…not if you aren’t baptized.

But it says if you believe AND are baptized. The second half of the verse does not nullify baptism it just states a fact if you do not believe you are condemned. Plus you dont have baptism without belief in either the one being baptized or the one representing the baptized.

Baptism is a declaration to God that you seek a clear conscience and a holy life. But it is not central or even vital to or congruent with salvation. So:

Someone who is baptized into Christ Jesus is not just declaring you seek a holy life. It is an actual change. You actually die with Christ

a. If it was the liquid water that literally took away the sins, then future sins would not be taken away unless a person was baptized again and again.
b. It is not the water that is special, but rather the water as the identification with the blood of Christ.
​

The water does not take away sin Jesus does using the water. Baptism deals with original sin. You are mistaken to think it should be used for all sins.

And I could also ask about the thief on the Cross, and even Christ Himself. The thief never received Baptism,

Baptism is the norm as is faith. So back to my question you believe faith is a necessity right? The norm. But what about children or mentally handicapped you said its your opinion they dont go to hell. Well that would be the Catholic opinion on both faith and baptism. Baptism is the norm but those who do not have the opportunity God wouldn’t deny them salvation. So just as you could say and show from scripture that faith is necessary there are exceptions as to baptism.

Where on earth (figuratively) do you find any such concept of “purgatory” though?

The word purgatory is not in scripture but the concept is. Just as the word trinity. Im willing to bet if you died right now yo have some unrepented sin. Well scripture tells us nothing unclean will enter the kingdom of God. You stated you believe that all of mankind is sinfully depraved. What happens to your depravement you cant take it with you covered by Christ. It has to be done away with. Christ will take all your depravement away prior to entering heaven. In this life or the next. How this is done in the next is speculated. But assumed by many that when we come before Christ our sinfulness will be done away with instantaneously. Most protestants would not have a problem with what I have just said. It just never comes up in protestant churches. Most protestants have no idea of the proper catholic understanding of purgatory and this it is some holding place where people get a second chance. That would be a concern if true for that is unbiblical.​

 

[Evan]

Mark 16:16 in which Christ says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” At first, it appears He advocates baptismal regeneration, until you read the second half of that verse. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE YOU ARE CONDEMNED…not if you aren’t baptized.

That is an interesting twist on that sentence.

So if I told you, “you need to buy a ticket and be there at 6:00 PM to get in, if you are not there at 6:00 you will not get in.” means that you do not need a ticket?

I would think that both the first and 2nd phrases are BOTH true. You need to be baptized and believe. Once baptized, you cannot lose your baptism. There is only one baptism and it is for all time. It imparts an immutable seal on your soul. However, you can lose your faith. So baptism alone is not sufficient, necessary but not sufficient.

 

[Odell]

**1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. **

This only suggests that if a man lives a life pursuing vain and worthless things, he will be saved from damnation, but only at the loss of his life’s labor. He will enter heaven “as through fire,” only being saved because his foundation is Christ and by Christ’s blood his sins are cleansed. This suggests, to me, that the man is being brought through the trying fires and, to him, those fires are like the fires of hell; his life was lived worthlessly and sinfully and if not for Christ he would have been cast into the fire.

When is this taken place? the day will disclose is referring to judgement. There is no fire in heaven and you cant suffer hell fire and then go to heaven

Rev. 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
(Any sin is “unclean” - even a small one. Those who die with any sin in their being (mind/heart/…) must be cleansed of it before they can enter heaven.)

Thus the Blood of CHRIST! All who are not covered in Christ’s blood are damned, all who are shall be saved. To suggest that the sins of believers must be cleansed in a “holding-tank” for a certain amount of time** based on their wickedness and disobedience makes Christ’s blood of little to no repute. His blood is insufficent to save, insufficient to cleanse**, and insufficient to take us to righteousness; He tried to do it now we have to finish it ourselves. I know this is not what you believe, to an extent, but I fear that this is the direct conclusion one must reach if they hold to this concept of purgatory.

Which is it does Christ blood cover or cleanse? At some point your sin will be cleansed when is that for the one who dies with sin just covered?

And its not a holding tank and its only the blood of Christ that cleanses us before we can enter heaven. That is called purgatory

"He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since He did this once for all when He offered up himself." Hebrews 7:27 (ESV)

This verse says a sacrifice once for all; not ever so often, not sometimes, or even after death. Christ’s sacrifice is either fully sufficient or it is a complete and utter failure. Since He is God I imagine it was probably the former, since all He does is good and perfect.

But yet he offers this same sacrifice perpetually in heaven for all eternity. This is why John when called up to heaven saw a lamb as if slain. He still offers his sacrafice.

1 Jn 2:1-2
" My dear children. I write this to you so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the PROPITIATION for our sins, and not ours only but also for the whole world."

Paul is addressing people who have already become Christians, yet people who are still in need of a propitiator for their sins.

Thus we understand that the propitiation is not just a one-time event of justification but to an individuals ongoing need of a continuing propitiation for his sins. This ongoing no more makes Christ sacrifice insufficient as does the propitiation before our entrance into heaven does.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV)

This suggests total and complete cleansing. No good work on earth can keep you from purgatory, because you cannot be headed there if your sins are as white as snow!

I do not mean to say anything in an offensive way, and apologize in advance if I do so…

Responses to others’ post coming soon!

thats good because we dont believe that

 

[Nita]

While that verse is indeed indicative at first glance, how do you fit the other passages (Such as Ephesians 2:8-9) into that concept?

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God – not because of works, lest any man should boast.This is absolutely what Catholics believe – that we are saved by grace. We believe this grace must be present in our souls at death in order for us to be saved.
God bestows many graces/gifts upon us, but in speaking about the grace which saves us, the Church has special teachings. This grace is a share in the supernatural life of God - His nature. 2 Peter 1:4 …and become partakers of the divine nature
1 John 3:9 …for God’s nature abides in him…
Eph 2:1 And you He made alive…

We believe God infuses this supernatural life of grace (often called Sanctifying Grace in Catholicism) into our souls at Baptism. It is precisely this infusion of new life into us which IS truly a re-birth - born anew/again. The concepts of “born” and “life” are inseparable. To be “born” one has to receive “life”.
In your Baptist theology, what does this “life” (which you receive in being born again)consist of?

We believe this supernatural life of God sanctifies us, cleanses us of sin, justifies us…
We can lose this life of grace through willed grave sin (called mortal/deadly since we lose this saving life present in us). If we repent and confess this grave sin in Confession and try to amend our ways, the life of sanctifying grace is restored to our souls. (Eg. Luke 15:24 Prodigal Son; was dead and is now alive…)

This life of grace is received in Baptism John 3;5 …unless one be born of water and the Spirit
(John’s baptism was not both. His did not include the Spirit.)

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit

One would not seek to receive this new life in Baptism if he did not know about it and believe what he heard preached about it. That is the critical part of faith. It is because of and through this faith that “regeneration” is sought. In the case of infants, it is the faith of the parents acting on behalf of their children. In the apostolic Church, when there was as yet no Christian community, it was adults who had to be convinced of the faith. Also obvious is the fact that any letters and preaching would be directed to adults capable of reading/hearing and understanding - teaching as it applies to adults where faith is a requirement. Faith is also required when baptized infants grow up - faith that is commensurate with their age.

Re baptizing infants:
By God’s command children in the OT received the rite/sacrament of initiation (circumcision) into the Old Covenant. God had made it clear to Moses and his wife that this command was to be obeyed. (Eg. Ex. 4:25) With close to 2000 years of tradition on the necessity for babies to be initiated into the Covenant, it would have been automatic for the Jewish apostles and first believers to have their whole household, babies included, initiated into the New Covenant. If babies/children were not to be included, there would have been some clear instruction so they would know they should not baptize them.

 

[Nita]

…Baptism is a symbol, …

Since you only believe something if it is explicitly stated in Scripture, could you tell me where it says that baptism is only symbolic? Or even, a sentence that implies that it is symbolic.

Also, if the “water/washing” of regeneration is symbolic, does that mean the “regeneration” is only symbolic?

 

[paul_c]

To All Catholics,

I am a Reformed Protestant, attending a Baptist church, and as I have surveyed the different posts on this subject, a couple of questions present themselves to me.

First, where in Scripture is baptism presented as necessary for salvation?

Second, is it accepted Catholic doctrine to believe that innocent people dont go to hell?

Finally, is purgatory still an accepted doctrine in Catholicism?

Also, I want to offer a quick response to the question, “Do Children Go To Hell?”

While I do believe that all of mankind is sinfully depraved, I think God judges people on their knowledge and comprehension of Him. Romans teaches that all men know in their heart there is a God. All men can see Creation and Creation alone is enough to damn someone if they fail to acknowledge the Creator. So if someone doesn’t hear of Christ, they are still damned.

So if Children, be they unborn, newborn, or early childhood, die before the so called “age of accountability,” do they go to Hell?

To my mind, the answer is, “NO!”

While the Word does not concern itself primarily with this topic, there is one passage that indirectly states and suggests that young children are not damned if they die, a passage which ALMOST seems to advocate an “age of accountability” though I do not believe that such an age exists.

This passage is 2 Samuel 12:21-23. David says something about his child which is greatly suggestive. He says, in essence, “Can I bring him back again? No. I can go to him but he cannot come to me.” David was, of course, not saying that he would go to Hell and see his dead child. Neither was he suggesting he would descend into death and be annihilated, a form of nothingness, and in that sense be with his child. David said that he would see the child again and he found hope in this.

How could this be, unless God, in His divine mercy, grace, and goodness, apply the blood of Christ and His sacred atonement to the child who had never had a chance to comprehend God or his own sinfulness? Who had never had the opportunity to say one word of faith, or doubt, in life? I believe that God is a judge, a just judge, but I also believe He is a merciful Father.

While I cannot state this in a way that ought be pronounced as a doctrine, I can say that I believe God, in His sacred will, does what is greatest for His glory and our good, IN THAT ORDER!

Thanks.

Lightbearer7,
It seems to me that a short discussion of what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation would help you understand the other comments better.

All men are called by God to enter into his grace and ultimately enter heaven through the church he established on Earth through Jesus. Some men answer that call and become members of the Church through baptism. In doing so, they enter a covenant agreement by which they agree to follow God’s will for them and God forgives all past sins, gives them the grace to do the works he calls them to and makes them a member of his church. If a person stays in the state of Grace until death, he/she will ultimately enter heaven. A person stays in the state of grace by loving God and neighbor, doing things for them without accepting anything in return.

A person falls from grace through sin. However, in God’s perfect mercy, he will allow people who fall from grace to reconcile sacramentally, if they confess their sins to a priest, repent, and do the penance required of them. This can be done as many times as the person is willing to contritely repent.

If a person dies in the state of grace but still has the tendency to sin, he/she will be purged of that tendency in purgatory because nothing unclean can enter heaven. Purgatory is not a punishment per se, it is a cleansing of the soul. No one knows where this occurs, how long it will take or whether it is even unpleasant. All we know is that you can’t enter heaven with the tendency to sin because there is no sin in heaven, so that tendency must be purged out prior to heaven. Some may have been pruged of the tendency to sin during life and don’t need Purgatory, but that is probably not the norm.

So why does the Church teach that physical sacraments are necessary for salvation? Because that is what Jesus taught. When he commissioned the Apostles in Matthew 28: 18-20, he told them to baptize all the nations. They started immediately at pentacost, where Peter told the first converts to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Even Cornelius’ household, the first gentiles to recieve the Holy Spirit, were baptized. Paul was also baptized in Damascus. Baptism is a physical act to demonstrate a person’s choice to gain God’s graces and be a member of his church. Now it is true that St. Dismas, the “good thief” on Jesus’s right went to heaven without baptism. This is because God is not subject to the sacraments and is capable of judging whether a person WOULD have chosen baptism if given the choice. This called the “Baptism of Desire.” It can also apply to Children and those who have never heard of the necessity of baptism. BUT those that have read the Bible and heard Jesus’ call to all to be baptized and still refuse to do so will be condemned. And don’t beleive that those that haven’t heard the Gospel would get a free pass either. Indeed, St. Paul says in Romans that all will be judged based on the natural law, whether they have heard the Gospel or not.

 

[promethius]

While that verse is indeed indicative at first glance, how do you fit the other passages (Such as Ephesians 2:8-9) into that concept? Baptism is a symbol, instigated by Christ and performed by John the Baptist, but I could also point towards Mark 16:16 in which Christ says, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” At first, it appears He advocates baptismal regeneration, until you read the second half of that verse. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE YOU ARE CONDEMNED…not if you aren’t baptized.

Also, consider Paul’s statement in 1 Corinthians 1:14-17. Why would he say Christ sent him not to baptize if baptism is necessary for salvation? Baptism is an act of faith, as 1 Peter 3:21 says, “Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Baptism is a declaration to God that you seek a clear conscience and a holy life. But it is not central or even vital to or congruent with salvation. So:
a. If it was the liquid water that literally took away the sins, then future sins would not be taken away unless a person was baptized again and again.
b. It is not the water that is special, but rather the water as the identification with the blood of Christ.
c. The Bible does not say people cannot have sins washed away without baptism. God is capable of taking away the sins of the thief on the cross, as well as early Christians who were martyred before they had the opportunity to be baptized.
d. So it is not the drops of water that take away anything. Rather it is the pledge of a good conscience before God that connects us with Christ’s blood, and baptism is an acknowledgment—an emblem, of that.”
And I could also ask about the thief on the Cross, and even Christ Himself. The thief never received Baptism, yet Christ spoke as if he was saved. Christ underwent baptism, for what reason? Did he need it? Was he unsaved until then? Or did he do it so that the sacrament of baptism could be demonstrated to his followers, and so that he could follow along within the guidelines of his father’s channels and receive the Spirit’s power?

First and foremost, the church has never taught that it is SOLELY water baptism which is required. We also teach baptism by blood (as in the case of the martyrs) or baptism by desire (as is suspected in the case of the good thief, though he might have been previously baptised).

Second, Baptism is not MERELY about washing of sins, nor is it the only sacrament capable of reconciling us from sins. There is ONE baptism, which is death and rising in new birth in Christ. After that, we have access to reconciliation through the confessional. Why argue against something catholics don’t even believe?

Finally, we can’t pretend that ONE scripture is the source of teaching on baptismal necessity. There are dozens:
scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-II

Well…God knows but if someone is unsaved, you can kind of take a guess. Scripture is quite clear on that, but I believe you understand that and as such, I digress.

Let me highlight something for you: didn’t you JUST assert that God can take away sins from whomever He pleases?

If you actually believe that, then you have to recognize that “we don’t know if someone is in heaven or not” is the only valid answer to your question.

However, if a person is in heaven, their salvation was from Christ and delivered through the truth of His church.

Where on earth (figuratively) do you find any such concept of “purgatory” though?

Let me ask you something: are you perfectly pure? If you aren’t, then you had better believe in some form of purification (whether you call it purgatory or sanctification) after you die… otherwise the only option is hell.

First, let’s clear up your misconceptions: the doctrine of purgatory refers not to a place or an amount of time, but rather to a process outside of time and place (namely, a purification process).

When we look at Revelation we find “nothing impure shall enter heaven”… this means 1 of three options:

1. You are pure, perfect, the summit of human nature and the best you will ever be. You can enter heaven.
2. You’re not pure, you’re going to hell
3. You’re not pure, but God has some mechanism for purifying those whom He chooses to save.

Of course, option 3 is only possible with some form of purgatory, sanctification, or as you say it, washing with the Blood of Christ. All of these, however, are simply different words for saying the same thing: that the Grace of Christ’s crucifixion will be applied to us after death and before entering heaven.

In other words, you believe in purgatory, you just didn’t know it.

 

[Nita]

To Nita, I appreciate you presenting Scripture as basis for your belief. However, those passages suggest, to my mind anyway, no such concept.

**1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. **

This only suggests that if a man lives a life pursuing vain and worthless things, he will be saved from damnation, but only at the loss of his life’s labor. He will enter heaven “as through fire,” only being saved because his foundation is Christ and by Christ’s blood his sins are cleansed. .

Yes, works can be burned up (first phrase in the verse), but then note that it says specifically that the man himself, his person/being, will be saved as through fire. (This in no way can be understood as referring to the works of that man since they will not be saved, but instead are burnt up.)

This suggests, to me, that the man is being brought through the trying fires and, to him, those fires are like the fires of hell; his life was lived worthlessly and sinfully and if not for Christ he would have been cast into the fire

I can’t tell for sure from your words, but it seems you believe something similar to Catholic teaching. Are we in agreement that we have to be cleansed of any sinful works? that they cannot go into heaven with us? Do you consider thoughts, willed desires, etc. (lust, greed, avarice, …) are part of the works/acts we do – acts/works of our intellect (mind) and will (heart)? Can they go into heaven with us? Or do they have to be removed from our being first - removed from our souls? (In Catholic teaching, the intellect and will are powers of the soul.)
We are probably in agreement that they have to be removed first. (Heaven wouldn’t be heaven if we still had to exist with those sins in us. And also if we still had to live where those conditions were present in those around us! ) I think the difference is that Catholics believe it will be difficult, painful, etc. to go through the spiritual cleansing/treatment to get rid of these sins. If we found it too difficult/painful to cleanse ourselves of these sins here on earth with the help of God’s grace, why would someone think it would be accomplished instantaneously and painlessly immediately after death. (Kind of like God waving a magic wand over us)

We do not believe that Purgatory consists of a physical fire. Keep in mind it is our soul that is in Purgatory, not our body (which has not yet been resurrected). Rather, we believe that the pain of being cleansed from our sin and their consequences is going to be difficult and painful (the degree of pain varying according to one’s spiritual condition) - a spiritual pain that can be compared to the physical pain of fire.

Rev. 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
(Any sin is “unclean” - even a small one. Those who die with any sin in their being (mind/heart/…) must be cleansed of it before they can enter heaven.)

Thus the Blood of CHRIST! All who are not covered in Christ’s blood are damned, all who are shall be saved. To suggest that the sins of believers must be cleansed in a “holding-tank” for a certain amount of time based on their wickedness and disobedience makes Christ’s blood of little to no repute. His blood is insufficent to save, insufficient to cleanse, and insufficient to take us to righteousness; .

It does not make Christ’s blood (sacrifice of His life on Calvary) of little or no repute. Without it we would all be in hell. It is Christ’s sacrifice/blood that makes Purgatory possible – to make salvation possible even to those who are not perfect yet. Sin is “falsehood” – the will of Satan, the father of lies. If it’s still in us, then it has to be removed before we can enter heaven. To understand our salvation as a mere external covering that allows our sinfulness to remain is what actually makes Christ’s redemption of mankind insufficient and meaningless. How are we saved from sin if we still remain in it!?!

BTW, where is the passage in the NT that uses the phrase about the saved being “covered in Christ’s blood”? I did on search on my Bible software and nothing came up.

He tried to do it now we have to finish it ourselves. I know this is not what you believe, to an extent, but I fear that this is the direct conclusion one must reach if they hold to this concept of purgatory

Where does some non-Catholic theology get the idea from Scripture that there is no need for believers to cooperate with God’s grace by striving to do the good He commands and working to overcome evil He condemns. Show me one place in Scripture where God says it is okay to go on sinning without repenting – that it’s okay because nothing we do, except for making a verbal profession of faith, makes any difference anyway.
(I can show you lots of passages that do show what we do has a bearing on whether or not we are saved.)

]

 

[Church_Militant]

To All Catholics,

I am a Reformed Protestant, attending a Baptist church, and as I have surveyed the different posts on this subject, a couple of questions present themselves to me.

Finally, is purgatory still an accepted doctrine in Catholicism?

You really seem to know very little about the Bible and the Christian faith. I have another article on my blog that might enlighten you some. Much of it you probably have no idea about.
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

First, where in Scripture is baptism presented as necessary for salvation?

• Baptism~ Necessary or Not?
• “I Find No Sacraments In the Bible” he said.

 

[Nevermore22]

There are so many misconceptions of Purgatory. It is understandable. People almost always misconstrue things. Other posters here have provided Scriptural evidence for Purgatory.

They way I think of Purgatory is that for those who have been saved, they go on a “journey” towards heaven. In the Angelic choir, the Seraphim are the closest to the throne of God. Their name means “fiery ones, or burning ones.” They themselves burn because of the intense Glory of God. God Himself is like a fire. The Holy Spirit came to earth as fire on Pentecost. So as we make our way closer and closer to God, His Glory and Holiness purges us of anything displeasing to Him (sin, the world, evil, etc.).

Think about it, here on earth, the closer and closer we are to God, the less and less we sin. Our relationship, our proximity to Him if you will, removes sin and the desire to sin. How much more so will it be when we are in His presence?

I may be completely wrong on how Purgatory actually is. The Church never says what it will be like since She does not know. Only Our Lord, and those in heaven know. Don’t take my little idea of it as the true word of the Church. This is the way that I can wrap my small head around such a huge thing. I hope it does help though.

In Christ through Mary,
Nevermore