SPLIT: Adequate Penance?

[joyinMO]

After reading all this, I still have a question. [edited]
What is a real Penance? I have always thought it would be so many Our Fathers, or Hail Mary;s, or something related to one or more sin, like gossip would call for apology, (maybe). Lately I have been to confession, and was told to “Go back to your pew & think about the good people in your life”. Now I don’t consider that a penance! I can do that any time & it has/had nothing at all to do with any sin I confessed!
I’ll look forward to any feedback I get. Would especially like to know where I can find official Church rubrics for this.
joyinMO

 

[EasterJoy]

After reading all this, I still have a question. [edited]

What is a real Penance? I have always thought it would be so many Our Fathers, or Hail Mary;s, or something related to one or more sin, like gossip would call for apology, (maybe). Lately I have been to confession, and was told to “Go back to your pew & think about the good people in your life”. Now I don’t consider that a penance! I can do that any time & it has/had nothing at all to do with any sin I confessed!
I’ll look forward to any feedback I get. Would especially like to know where I can find official Church rubrics for this.
joyinMO

Well, you can say "Our Father"s and "Hail Mary"s any time you like, too.

These are a few points you need to get. First, while penance may work towards that end, penance is NOT restitution. It is understood that if you are contrite, you will do whatever restitution you can towards the injured party, over and above whatever penance you get.

Also, the penance is not a quid pro quo repayment for forgiveness. It doesn’t work that way. The forgiveness to be had in the Sacrament of Penance is a free gift from God. You can’t earn it. Rather, the penance is a good faith effort to rebuild the relationship. It is a start.

 

[joyinMO]

Well, you can say "Our Father"s and "Hail Mary"s any time you like, too.

These are a few points you need to get. First, while penance may work towards that end, penance is NOT restitution. It is understood that if you are contrite, you will do whatever restitution you can towards the injured party, over and above whatever penance you get.

Also, the penance is not a quid pro quo repayment for forgiveness. It doesn’t work that way. The forgiveness to be had in the Sacrament of Penance is a free gift from God. You can’t earn it. Rather, the penance is a good faith effort to rebuild the relationship. It is a start.

Thanks, Joy. I know all that. Maybe I’m just too traditional? What he said just sounded so … well… lame! and out of place!
joyinMO

 

[Jean_Anthony]

aaa

 

[acadian]

I have gotten things like: “Go and bask in the silence before Mass. Let Jesus speak to you.” “Consider the different things that you and your husband give to your sons and give thanks for the differences.” “Ask God to embrace you. And let Him.” “Offer Mass today for your family.” “Give up (deny yourself) something for a day and offer it to God in thanksgiving for (your family/His mercy…).” Usually - but not always - I can see the connection with what I have confessed.

Can’t remember the last time I got 2 Our Fathers and 3 Hail Mary’s for a penance. Far from thinking they are lame, I find these penances wonderfully helpful. They are a start. They sometimes change my way of thinking about something that is bothering me. Or they are something that I can carry with me and “refer back to” in my life. Or they can create a change that lasts longer than 10 minutes - when I realized how wonderful the silence before Mass was, I made an effort to get there 10 or 15 minutes early every day to “bask”.

:twocents:

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks, Joy. I know all that. Maybe I’m just too traditional? What he said just sounded so … well… lame! and out of place!
joyinMO

Maybe the experience of having done that penance just had a different effect on him than on you. I’ve had the experience of going to the funeral of someone I admired very much, and being overcome with grief at how I have failed where that person had succeeded. This was an example of sanctity that was in my reach, not someone who had lived in another place and time and whose vocation was totally different than mine. So maybe he was just not specific enough about what would make reflecting on the lives of good people you knew into a penitential practice.

If a penance given doesn’t sound like a penance, it isn’t a bad idea to ask the priest to explain more fully what it is that you are supposed to be doing. Sometimes the penance is just fine, once we get the point of what we’re being asked to do. Otherwise, how could three Hail Mary’s and two Our Fathers work for people whose sins are so different? In the right frame of heart, though, it does.

 

[JerrySeibert]

Pennance is not ‘this for that’. You have to understand the miracle of a Priest. What is the Spirit telling him? Do you know? No… At Cana, Mary told the people. “Listen to him” Jesus… discipline is doing what is asked. For instance one pennance for my confession was. Go home and hug your family and tell them that you love them. My Priest knows me and know how close my family are. Why did I need to do that? I did not ask, Just as the wedding presider in Cana, I did what he the Priest en persona Christy told me to do. Just obey.

 

[ljubim]

A “real penance” is whatever the confessor says.

I’m with you on this, all my life I’ve gotten little mini-penances, that I’ll keep doing over and over because it’s so small I feel like it didn’t accomplish anything. Then my last confession, the priest (with a nice foreign accent - maybe Polish) had me say a decade of the Rosary :extrahappy:. So some priests still assign substantial penance.

 

[EasterJoy]

So some priests still assign substantial penance.

Even that is a fraction of what they’d like to assume we’re doing as part of the normal prayer, fasting, penance, and almsgiving that we habitually do simply because it is in the service of the Lord to do it. I daresay that the greater the penance, the more the priest is assuming that the penance is not great compared to what he expects we do out of choice. If confessor gives a decade, that’s a priest that assumes that you already know your way around a Rosary.

The penance we do on account of confession is kind of like the laps or push-ups or whatever that athletes do for having transgressed a coach’s rules. I mean that compared to the total volume we do, it ought to be a rather small part.

 

[puzzleannie]

a real penance is the one the priest gives you. Even if it is not your preference, the humility and obedience required to do as asked is part of the penance. Nobody is stopping you from also saying any other prayers. I had just such a penance one time and it led me to revive an old friendship I had ignored, with very good effects.

 

[Spirithound]

“Go back to your pew & think about the good people in your life”. Now I don’t consider that a penance! I can do that any time & it has/had nothing at all to do with any sin I confessed!

Of course it’s a real penance. The priest gave it to you, didn’t he? But what you really mean is that penance should hurt! Two questions for you 1. Do you think about the good people in your life at any time? And I mean really think about them. and 2. Did you do it?

Would especially like to know where I can find official Church rubrics for this.

There is a book, or type of book that priests used to use, and I think it is called a “Penitentiary”. If that’s not the right word, I’m sure someone will correct me
Anyways, maybe try to seek one out?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

As others have said, the penance is not restitution nor a payment for our sins. The practice in centuries past of public confession and public penance led to the thinking that our efforts gained us heaven which is not correct.

You should be driven by your remorse and efforts to ‘amend your life’ to do acts of restitution on your own. You should realize that Christ’s sacrifice and love is what allows us to be forgiven. You should do the penance assigned by the priest out of obedience to him in his role as Christ’s conduit.

You can certainly ask the priest to clarify the penmen if you don’t understand, but we shouldn’t engage in horse trading over our penance. And of course, we can always do additional prayers and should indeed be praying regularly every day.

 

[Linuse]

When I look at scripture and what Jesus did, or asks in a parable, I find almost no penances given at all. E.G. The parable of the prodigal son–the penance–LET’S HAVE A PARTY; the good thief–today you will be with me in paradise; the women in adultery–only the pastoral request “Go do this sin no more.”
The real application of the sacrament of reconciliation is to CELEBRATE** the return of the sinner; not to seek the punishment of the sinner.**

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

After reading all this, I still have a question. [edited]
What is a real Penance? I have always thought it would be so many Our Fathers, or Hail Mary;s, or something related to one or more sin, like gossip would call for apology, (maybe). Lately I have been to confession, and was told to “Go back to your pew & think about the good people in your life”. Now I don’t consider that a penance! I can do that any time & it has/had nothing at all to do with any sin I confessed!
I’ll look forward to any feedback I get. Would especially like to know where I can find official Church rubrics for this.
joyinMO

Your question reminds me of the story of Naaman (see the beginning of 2 Kings 5). He wants to be cured of his leprosy and is told to go wash seven times in the Jordan.

He gets angry:
Are not the rivers of Damascus, the Abana and the Pharpar, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be cleansed?" With this, he turned about in anger and left.

But his servant asked:
“My father,” they said, “if the prophet had told you to do something extraordinary, would you not have done it? All the more now, since he said to you, ‘Wash and be clean,’ should you do as he said.”

And in the end:
Naaman went down and plunged into the Jordan seven times at the word of the man of God. His flesh became again like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

I think the servant’s question is appropriate. If the priest asked you to do something extraordinary, wouldn’t you do it? All the more that you should do the simple thing he asked.

 

[EasterJoy]

Your question reminds me of the story of Naaman (see the beginning of 2 Kings 5). He wants to be cured of his leprosy and is told to go wash seven times in the Jordan.

He gets angry:
Are not the rivers of Damascus, the Abana and the Pharpar, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be cleansed?" With this, he turned about in anger and left.

But his servant asked:
“My father,” they said, “if the prophet had told you to do something extraordinary, would you not have done it? All the more now, since he said to you, ‘Wash and be clean,’ should you do as he said.”

And in the end:
Naaman went down and plunged into the Jordan seven times at the word of the man of God. His flesh became again like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

I think the servant’s question is appropriate. If the priest asked you to do something extraordinary, wouldn’t you do it? All the more that you should do the simple thing he asked.

The cleansing is accomplished in absolution, and the penance is more giving glory to God afterward–that is, a justly-expected action expressing gratitude and good will in one’s purpose of amendment–but this is a good analogy!

If we are grateful, we express our gratitude as we are asked to do, and don’t protest that we’d like to express it in some other way that we like better. Besides, it is not as if we cannot do the penance asked and then add on as an extra “thank you, Lord!” of our own. That is allowed.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

**Prayer is not a punishment. Conversing with God cannot be a punishment **or restitution, maybe it will reform you or lead to reform. Thinking about God’s love in your life for 10 minutes in silence will be more challenging to most people than 2 Our Fathers and 3 Hail Mary’s. Look most people can do those prayers in about 2 and one half minutes.

 

[m134e5]

After reading all this, I still have a question. [edited]
What is a real Penance? I have always thought it would be so many Our Fathers, or Hail Mary;s, or something related to one or more sin, like gossip would call for apology, (maybe). Lately I have been to confession, and was told to “Go back to your pew & think about the good people in your life”. Now I don’t consider that a penance! I can do that any time & it has/had nothing at all to do with any sin I confessed!
I’ll look forward to any feedback I get. Would especially like to know where I can find official Church rubrics for this.
joyinMO

You could consider obedience to your confessor as part of your penance. Most confessors aren’t going to have you torture yourself (and if you happen to get one who asks you to do outlandish things, ask for another penance- and find another confessor).

 

[EasterJoy]

Would especially like to know where I can find official Church rubrics for this.

PS Back to the original question, all I know of is this, which is in canon law:
Canon 981 The confessor is to impose salutary and appropriate penances, in proportion to the kind and number of sins confessed, taking into account, however, the condition of the penitent. The penitent is bound personally to fulfil these penances.

It is not out of place, then, to ask a confessor who gives a light penance for a mortal sin about their choice: whether they have judged your consent defective in some way or what.

In the realm of venial sins in particular, though, I would think the confessor has a great deal of latitude. The main purpose of the sacrament, after all, is not so much to focus on the penance as on how to help you to be as faithful as possible to your firm purpose of amendment. Better a light penance that turns you from the sin in a the future than a heavy one that gives you no ammunition against future temptations. Seen in that light, reflecting on all the good people in your life might help quite a bit, if you are conscientious about it.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Some important Canons from the Council of Trent on satisfaction (or penance).

CANON XII.–If any one saith, that God always remits the whole punishment together with the guilt, and that the satisfaction of penitents is no other than the faith whereby they apprehend that Christ has satisfied for them; let him be anathema.

CANON XIII.–If any one saith, that satisfaction for sins, as to their temporal punishment, is nowise made to God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, by the punishments inflicted by Him, and patiently borne, or by those enjoined by the priest, nor even by those voluntarily undertaken, as by fastings, prayers, almsdeeds, or by other works also of piety; and that, therefore, the best penance is merely a new life; let him be anathema.

CANON XV.–If any one saith, that the keys are given to the Church, only to loose, not also to bind; and that, therefore, priests act contrary to the purpose of the keys, and contrary to the institution of Christ, when they impose punishments on those who confess; and that it is a fiction, that, after the eternal punishment, has, by virtue of the keys, been removed, there remains for the most part a temporal punishment to be discharged; let him be anathema.

From the above I take away three important things:

1). Even after remission of guilt by absolution, a debt of temporal punishment may remain

2). That we are able to remit this punishment by making satisfaction, always through the merits of Christ, in various ways:
a) by the punishments inflicted by God in our life, and patiently borne (basically accepting the hardships of this life out of love of God)

b) by performing the penance given by the priest,

c) by voluntarily performing penance, by fasting, prayer, and giving alms
3) Prayer can be satisfactory and imposed as a penance, or voluntarily done as a penance.

Interestingly, St. Thomas brings up an objection that prayer can’t be satisfactory (ST, Supp, q. 15, a.1):

For a work of satisfaction should be penal. But prayer is not penal, since it is a remedy against penal sorrow, and is a source of pleasure, wherefore it is written (James 5:13): “Is any of you sad? Let him pray. Is he cheerful in mind? Let him sing.” Therefore prayer should not be reckoned among the works of satisfaction.

And he responds:

According to some, prayer is twofold. There is the prayer of contemplatives whose “conversation is in heaven”: and this, since it is altogether delightful, is not a work of satisfaction. The other is a prayer which pours forth sighs for sin; this is penal and a part of satisfaction.

It may also be replied, and better, that every prayer has the character of satisfaction, for though it be sweet to the soul it is painful to the body, since, as Gregory says (Super Ezech., Hom. xiv), “doubtless, when our soul’s love is strengthened, our body’s strength is weakened”; hence we read (Genesis 32:25) that the sinew of Jacob’s thigh shrank through his wrestling with the angel.

Also, in the Catechism of St. Pius X, we find this question and answer, and something which I think good to keep in mind:

112 Q. Does the penance which the confessor imposes always suffice to discharge the punishment which remains due to our sins?
A. The penance which the confessor imposes does not ordinarily suffice to discharge the punishment remaining due to our sins; and hence we must try to supply it by other voluntary penances.

VC

 

[EasterJoy]

Some important Canons from the Council of Trent on satisfaction (or penance).

**CANON XII.–If any one saith, that God always remits the whole punishment together with the guilt, and that the satisfaction of penitents is no other than the faith whereby they apprehend that Christ has satisfied for them; let him be anathema.

CANON XIII.–If any one saith, that satisfaction for sins, as to their temporal punishment, is nowise made to God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, by the punishments inflicted by Him, and patiently borne, or by those enjoined by the priest, nor even by those voluntarily undertaken, as by fastings, prayers, almsdeeds, or by other works also of piety; and that, therefore, the best penance is merely a new life; let him be anathema.

CANON XV.–If any one saith, that the keys are given to the Church, only to loose, not also to bind; and that, therefore, priests act contrary to the purpose of the keys, and contrary to the institution of Christ, when they impose punishments on those who confess; and that it is a fiction, that, after the eternal punishment, has, by virtue of the keys, been removed, there remains for the most part a temporal punishment to be discharged; let him be anathema. **
From the above I take away three important things:

1). Even after remission of guilt by absolution, a debt of temporal punishment may remain

2). That we are able to remit this punishment by making satisfaction, always through the merits of Christ, in various ways:
a) by the punishments inflicted by God in our life, and patiently borne (basically accepting the hardships of this life out of love of God)

b) by performing the penance given by the priest,

c) by voluntarily performing penance, by fasting, prayer, and giving alms
3) Prayer can be satisfactory and imposed as a penance, or voluntarily done as a penance.

Interestingly, St. Thomas brings up an objection that prayer can’t be satisfactory (ST, Supp, q. 15, a.1):
And he responds:
Also, in the Catechism of St. Pius X, we find this question and answer, and something which I think good to keep in mind:
VC

Having said that, the penance is NOT payment for forgiveness. The removal of guilt is a free gift. Although the proscribed penance is to be commensurate with the confessed sins, it is not guaranteed to remove all temporal punishment–in our modern ears, natural temporal consequences might better express this, as there is nothing arbitrary about the temporal punishment of sin. Rather, it is necessary, if one has firm purpose of amendment, that the forgiven party will act in a way so as to address the damage done by the offense. The penitent must act to accept God’s grace in order to accept the grace of amendment and begin to address the work of repairing the damage.

We have to cooperate with God to repair the damage done by sin, even absolved sin, but everything we have to offer God belongs to God already. We are deluded if we think our relationship allows any quid pro quo. Therefore, whatever we do in order to make amends for sin was service owed to God in the first place, before we ever sinned! While a life of penance, almsgiving, prayer, and service are necessary in order to cooperate in God’s work of making us into saints, it is a gift to God made from the matter of His gifts to us. So while it is a necessary consequence that there must be cooperation from humankind in order to truly mend the effects of our sins, due to the nature of the damage sin does, it is not as if we are actually repaying God for our offenses.

It is according to the economy of God’s grace that our work on behalf of the souls of others and on behalf of justice and right in his creation is also the work by which he fashions us into what we are intended to be. This is what the older brother in the story of the Prodigal Son did not understand. His brother, having squandered more, had more damage to repair, but both sons had a long way to go before they reached their intended inheritance: that is, before they became the image of their father.