Split and Edited Title: Catholic Vs Baptist Soteriology Discussion

[lyle]

Did Jesus die for those that are in hell? Only if they repented, right?

Jesus’ death redeemed us. It paid off our debt to sin. Those in hell chose to return to slavery of sin. Those in heaven participated in this Sacrifice.

He died for us all, but some choose to share in His Glory and some don’t.

For when Christ died He redeemed us to God by His blood. (Revelation 5:9)
So how could someone be in hell if his/her debt was paid? If that debt was satisfied why would that person not be saved? Who in their right mind would choose to go to hell? Besides when we are born into this world we are not born redeemed we are born in a lost state, in other words spiritually dead. We can only be made spiritually alive by God through the Holy Spirit.

 

[NotWorthy]

For when Christ died He redeemed us to God by His blood. (Revelation 5:9)
So how could someone be in hell if his/her debt was paid? If that debt was satisfied why would that person not be saved? Who in their right mind would choose to go to hell? Besides when we are born into this world we are not born redeemed we are born in a lost state, in other words spiritually dead. We can only be made spiritually alive by God through the Holy Spirit.

Sin in ancient Israel was referenced as a debt. When one owned a debt that they couldn’t pay, they often had to sell themselves into slavery. We are all slaves of Satan prior to our redemption, for we on our own can not pay our debt of Adam’s Sin.

So Christ’s death paid the debt for our sins.

But just as a slave who’s debt has been paid can fall back into debt, even to the point of slavery, We can fall back into sin even to the point of losing our Redemption.

Christ’s sacrifice didn’t give us a “license to sin”. We are still held accountable for our sins that we may commit after we’ve been washed in His blood (Baptism). That’s why Catholics take part in the Sacrament of Penance (Confession).

 

[NotWorthy]

Who in their right mind would choose to go to hell?

Who said someone has to be in their right mind to choose hell. But that’s what we do when we return to the sinful natures rather than following in the Light of Christ.

Besides when we are born into this world we are not born redeemed we are born in a lost state, in other words spiritually dead. We can only be made spiritually alive by God through the Holy Spirit.

OK… no argument there. Is anyone refuting that?

 

[mikeledes]

For when Christ died He redeemed us to God by His blood. (Revelation 5:9)
So how could someone be in hell if his/her debt was paid? If that debt was satisfied why would that person not be saved? .

1 John 2:2

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1 John 4:14

**14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[lyle]

.

Christ’s sacrifice didn’t give us a “license to sin”. We are still held accountable for our sins that we may commit after we’ve been washed in His blood (Baptism). That’s why Catholics take part in the Sacrament of Penance (Confession).

Amen to that , but as a baptized Christian I also confess my sins. God is faithful and just to forgive me of my sins. I don’t believe in a “license to sin”

 

[lyle]

1 John 2:2

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1 John 4:14

14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

God Bless,
Michael

Yes I believe every word of God’s word. When I read these verses the words whole world and world would mean every tribe, and tongue, and people and nation,
Romans 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
I don’t think that 1 John 2:2 and 4:14 means every men without exception.

 

[Mintaka]

“But you, being a wild olive-tree,” he says, “have been grafted into the good olive-tree, and been made a partaker of the fatness of the olive-tree.” (Romans 11:17) As, therefore, when the wild olive has been engrafted, if it remain in its former condition, viz., a wild olive, it is “cut off, and cast into the fire;” (Matthew 7:19) but if it takes kindly to the graft, and is changed into the good olive-tree, it becomes a fruit-bearing olive, planted, as it were, in a king’s park (paradiso): so likewise men, if they do truly progress by faith towards better things, and receive the Spirit of God, and bring forth the fruit thereof, shall be spiritual, as being planted in the paradise of God. But if they cast out the Spirit, and remain in their former condition, desirous of being of the flesh rather than of the Spirit, then it is very justly said with regard to men of this stamp, “That flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God;” (1 Corinthians 15:50) just as if anyone were to say that the wild olive is not received into the paradise of God.

“Admirably, therefore, does the apostle exhibit our nature, and God’s universal appointment, in his discourse about flesh and blood and the wild olive. For as the good olive, if neglected for a certain time, if left to grow wild and to run to wood, does itself become a wild olive; or again, if the wild olive be carefully tended and grafted, it naturally reverts to its former fruit-bearing condition: so men also, when they become careless, and bring forth for fruit the lusts of the flesh like woody produce, are rendered, by their own fault, unfruitful in righteousness. For when men sleep, the enemy sows the material of tares; (Matthew 13:25) and for this cause did the Lord command His disciples to be on the watch. And again, those persons who are not bringing forth the fruits of righteousness, and are, as it were, covered over and lost among brambles, if they use diligence, and receive the word of God as a graft, (James 1:21) arrive at the pristine nature of man—that which was created after the image and likeness of God.”

St. Irenaeus of Lyons. Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter 10.

 

[mgrfin]

Amen to that , but as a baptized Christian I also confess my sins. God is faithful and just to forgive me of my sins. I don’t believe in a “license to sin”

Forgiveness of serious sin, without the Sacrament of Penance, requires perfect sorrow

“O my God, I am heartily sorrow for having offended Thee…because Thou are all Good and worthy of all my love…”

mgrfin

 

[Pax]

…
…
Understanding the absolute sovereignty of God in the lives of men, especially in the lives of those who are his, leaves no room in the believer’s heart for dispair.

I agree with this concept. There is no reason for despair. I would qualify it, however, by saying that apparently some do despair. You would probably counter by saying that they are not of the elect, but that does not mean that they were not initially given the grace of justification. It merely means that they somehow failed to persevere.

…
…
Also, hearing, and believing one time is not sufficient, as illustrated by the parable; hearing and believing must be continuous, in its perseverance (Lk 8:15).

…
…

Agreed. I would again point out the inconsistency in the OSAS position. Your statement illuminates the problem. OSAS believers insist on the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. If you have faith, you are instantly and forever saved. You have rightly pointed to the need for perseverence and you have articulated it in such a way as to show the problems presented for OSAS. OSAS believers cannot have it both ways and they sort of get that by arguing that someone who seemingly falls away was “never saved in the first place.”

The problem is that if you are “saved by faith alone” then many receive the gift of justification because they believe. Perseverence is necessary but justification is not automatically followed by perseverence in the Christian. There is a fundamental contradiction in the teaching and there is no logical way around it unless one changes the definition of salvation by faith alone.

 

[mgrfin]

I agree with this concept. There is no reason for despair. I would qualify it, however, by saying that apparently some do despair. You would probably counter by saying that they are not of the elect, but that does not mean that they were not initially given the grace of justification. It merely means that they somehow failed to persevere.

Agreed. I would again point out the inconsistency in the OSAS position. Your statement illuminates the problem. OSAS believers insist on the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. If you have faith, you are instantly and forever saved. You have rightly pointed to the need for perseverence and you have articulated it in such a way as to show the problems presented for OSAS. OSAS believers cannot have it both ways and they sort of get that by arguing that someone who seemingly falls away was “never saved in the first place.”

The problem is that if you are “saved by faith alone” then many receive the gift of justification because they believe. Perseverence is necessary but justification is not automatically followed by perseverence in the Christian. There is a fundamental contradiction in the teaching and there is no logical way around it unless one changes the definition of salvation by faith alone.

You are trying to justify two different religions here: Lutheranism, and Calvinism.
Luther with those unthinkable words (for us), 'once saved, always saved", and Calvin, with equally depressing concepts of ‘election’ and predestination.
I feel a deep shadow come over my soul when either concept is mentioned.

mgrfin

 

[Pax]

We AREsaved because of God’s grace, but it is our faith that saves us, faith in Jesus Christ.
Someone stated that you have to love God to be saved, but an unsaved person can not love God. We come to love God after we are saved.

You are in error here. Your definitions exclude Jews and others from loving God. This is untrue.

Likewise, you need to take what was given to you and either accept it or reject it on its own merits.

The plain truth is that a person cannot be saved if they do not love God. Even if faith in Jesus Christ is first in the order of events for salvation, that in itself does not negate the absolute necessity of loving God. Scripture even says that the greatest of the supernatural virtues of faith, hope, and love is…you guessed it “love.”

We simply are not saved by faith alone.

I hope that these points are helpful.

 

[Pax]

You are trying to justify two different religions here: Lutheranism, and Calvinism.
Luther with those unthinkable words (for us), 'once saved, always saved", and Calvin, with equally depressing concepts of ‘election’ and predestination.
I feel a deep shadow come over my soul when either concept is mentioned.

mgrfin

Maybe I did not make myself clear. I am in no way justifying or supporting either Lutheranism or Calvinism. I did, however, agree with isolated statements made by Sandusky that show the deficiencies of OSAS and the inherent contradictions contained therein.

If my remarks were not well stated, then I apologize.

 

[mgrfin]

We AREsaved because of God’s grace, but it is our faith that saves us, faith in Jesus Christ.
Someone stated that you have to love God to be saved, but an unsaved person can not love God. We come to love God after we are saved.

Well, you contradict yourself. If an unsaved person can not love God, how can an unsaved person have faith in Jesus Christ?

Ave Maria
mgrfin

 

[allischalmers]

Well, you contradict yourself. If an unsaved person can not love God, how can an unsaved person have faith in Jesus Christ?

Ave Maria
mgrfin

Not really ! A person comes to love God after God has saved him and they realize what a great gift God has given them

 

[Sean_Boyle]

A person comes to love God after God has saved him and they realize what a great gift God has given them

Not Really!! Faith is love of God. All have the same opportunity to come to love God, not a select few.

 

[Contarini]

You are trying to justify two different religions here: Lutheranism, and Calvinism.
Luther with those unthinkable words (for us), 'once saved, always saved", and Calvin, with equally depressing concepts of ‘election’ and predestination.

Luther did not believe in “once saved, always saved,” but in fact he did believe in a doctrine of predestination essentially identical to Calvin’s (the main difference was that Luther did not preach it, and a second difference was that Calvin made election far more central by teaching, in contrast to Luther, that only the elect ever experienced regeneration–the original version of “once saved, always saved”).

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Not Really!! Faith is love of God…

But doesn’t Catholic theology distinguish quite sharply between faith and charity and claim (in contrast to traditional Protestantism) that you can have supernatural faith without also having charity, so that charity must “form” and perfect a faith that is dead in and of itself?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

You are in error here. Your definitions exclude Jews and others from loving God. .

Those non-Christians who love God are saved. Love of God is only possible on the basis of faith in Christ, even if implicit.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Perseverence is necessary but justification is not automatically followed by perseverence in the Christian. .

In the Calvinist understanding it is.

Edwin

 

[Sean_Boyle]

But doesn’t Catholic theology distinguish quite sharply between faith and charity and claim (in contrast to traditional Protestantism) that you can have supernatural faith without also having charity, so that charity must “form” and perfect a faith that is dead in and of itself?

Edwin

Isn’t an intellectual faith dead without love? Surely a purely intellectual faith is not a saving faith?

A supernatural faith includes love otherwise it is only an intellectual faith.