Split and Edited Title: Catholic Vs Baptist Soteriology Discussion

[defenderoftruth]

Hello Defender,
I’m confused (sorry). Could you clarify your defenition of “dispensational”. Is one to divide the books of the bible in any sort of way? Or should one assume every book, chapter and verse is directed towards a 21st century christian of today. Just curious. Thanks,
Benaiah

here it is from wikipedia pay attention to the teachings under “Theology” on the article.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

Many Baptists teach the junk under “theology” in the article; this is incorrect and that God saves people different ways under different periods. Jesus is ever and only the way. Sheep and goats blood were part of the rituals but they never “saved” anyone. Be a “good person” never “saved” anyone. Many protestant dispensationalists believe that the temple will be rebuilt and that the Jews will be performing ritual sacrifice again righteously. This is a total ungodly heresy. If they do rebuild the temple again and sacrifice animals they will anger God, since that has been done away with, (that’s why he let there temple be destroyed-and their priesthood scatter-they only need Jesus and the two greatest commandments-that cover the law and prophets not 613 meticulous laws with animal sacrifice). Now certainly the OT was the old covenant, (ie 613 meticulous laws) and this doesn’t apply to us. We are to follow the moral law still (no adultery/fornication/murder/homosexuality etc.) and the spirit of law (no looking with lust, murder in our heart etc.) under the two greatest commandments to love God and your neighbor. I believe 99.9 % of the NT still applies to us. (yes as a woman I wear a prayer veil and don’t speak in church-unless when responding in the mass)

Hope this is not to off topic. And if the baptists want to argue dispensationalism I would suggest they start a new thread to be set straight in. Since this one has been pretty well defended. The Catholic view of salvation is the only correct view. Period.

 

[allischalmers]

here it is from wikipedia pay attention to the teachings under “Theology” on the article.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

Many Baptists teach the junk under “theology” in the article; this is incorrect and that God saves people different ways under different periods. Jesus is ever and only the way. Sheep and goats blood were part of the rituals but they never “saved” anyone. Be a “good person” never “saved” anyone. Many protestant dispensationalists believe that the temple will be rebuilt and that the Jews will be performing ritual sacrifice again righteously. This is a total ungodly heresy. If they do rebuild the temple again and sacrifice animals they will anger God, since that has been done away with, (that’s why he let there temple be destroyed-and their priesthood scatter-they only need Jesus and the two greatest commandments-that cover the law and prophets not 613 meticulous laws with animal sacrifice). Now certainly the OT was the old covenant, (ie 613 meticulous laws) and this doesn’t apply to us. We are to follow the moral law still (no adultery/fornication/murder/homosexuality etc.) and the spirit of law (no looking with lust, murder in our heart etc.) under the two greatest commandments to love God and your neighbor. I believe 99.9 % of the NT still applies to us. (yes as a woman I wear a prayer veil and don’t speak in church-unless when responding in the mass)

Hope this is not to off topic. And if the baptists want to argue dispensationalism I would suggest they start a new thread to be set straight in. Since this one has been pretty well defended. The Catholic view of salvation is the only correct view. Period.

Dispensationalism is very rarely taught in Baptist Churches anymore and many modern day Baptist would not even know what a Scofeild Bible is.

 

[defenderoftruth]

Dispensationalism is very rarely taught in Baptist Churches anymore and many modern day Baptist would not even know what a Scofeild Bible is.

Uh ya maybe if you are a southern baptist. I’m refering to the Independant Fundamentalist Baptist’s specifically (the jack chick variety). Scofield is the bible of choice, and dispensationalism is the norm. BTW, if you think sermon on the mount doesn’t pertain to you, and you use words like “church age” then guess what you are a dispensationalist.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Dispensationalism is very rarely taught in Baptist Churches anymore and many modern day Baptist would not even know what a Scofeild Bible is.

Every Baptist church I visited or attended in the last 15 years preached dispensational theology, and told you that the “best study Bible” was the Old Scofield KJV. A visiting preacher held up his KJV and shouted, “This Bible is a dispensational book!” and got about 12 "Amen, brother"s.

l don’t know what kind of Baptist you are, but the ones I know are all pre-trib rapturists, which is a dispensational teaching.

 

[Contarini]

Dispensationalism is very rarely taught in Baptist Churches anymore and many modern day Baptist would not even know what a Scofeild Bible is.

It depends how narrowly you are defining dispensationalism. A lot of Baptists (and other evangelicals) are basically dispensationalist in their theology without buying into every detail of the theory. As someone else pointed out, anyone who believes in a pretrib rapture is in some sense a dispensationalist.

Edwin

 

[lyle]

There is only one way that we are saved, both catholics and baptist, and that is by the son of God Jesus Christ taking our sins (past, present, future) upon Himself and bore them upon the cross and died for us. This satisfied God the Father. This does not give us a excuse to sin, we are to shun sin. But we will sin and the Holy Spirit will convict us then we confess, and God is faithful an just to forgive us and cleanse us from unrightousness.

 

[Afterburned6387]

There is only one way that we are saved, both catholics and baptist, and that is by the son of God Jesus Christ taking our sins (past, present, future) upon Himself and bore them upon the cross and died for us. This satisfied God the Father. This does not give us a excuse to sin, we are to shun sin. But we will sin and the Holy Spirit will convict us then we confess, and God is faithful an just to forgive us and cleanse us from unrightousness.

Amen to that brother!

Besides, the problem with Catholic theology on “future” sins is that they mistake their feelings for changes of legal standing. Legal terminology is used extensively, especially in Romans, and it makes clear that those who believe enter a right Legal standing with God. That said, sin after conversion will damage the relationship we have with God, but no matter how distant God may be, how trapped we are in our sin, no matter how many “mortal sins” we seem to have committed:

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38-39

Or, as recorded in John:

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” John 10:28-29

Remember Romans 8:29-30

“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

It is a chain of events that WILL happen, whether we want them to or not.

“It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” Romans 9:16

And no, foreknew does not refer to anyone other than the “elect,” those called to be Christians (and this is not everyone, I have never heard a biblical argument that could come close to proving we are all “called”)

That said, those who would try to make salvation a license to sin, Jude writes:

“For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality”
Jude 4a

Oh yeah, and I’m a good Baptist as well, thought I’d share that fun fact. I will, however, leave you with this thought:

"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Romans 1:16-17

 

[benaiah]

here it is from wikipedia pay attention to the teachings under “Theology” on the article.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

Many Baptists teach the junk under “theology” in the article; this is incorrect and that God saves people different ways under different periods. Jesus is ever and only the way. Sheep and goats blood were part of the rituals but they never “saved” anyone. Be a “good person” never “saved” anyone. Many protestant dispensationalists believe that the temple will be rebuilt and that the Jews will be performing ritual sacrifice again righteously. This is a total ungodly heresy. If they do rebuild the temple again and sacrifice animals they will anger God, since that has been done away with, (that’s why he let there temple be destroyed-and their priesthood scatter-they only need Jesus and the two greatest commandments-that cover the law and prophets not 613 meticulous laws with animal sacrifice). Now certainly the OT was the old covenant, (ie 613 meticulous laws) and this doesn’t apply to us. We are to follow the moral law still (no adultery/fornication/murder/homosexuality etc.) and the spirit of law (no looking with lust, murder in our heart etc.) under the two greatest commandments to love God and your neighbor. I believe 99.9 % of the NT still applies to us. (yes as a woman I wear a prayer veil and don’t speak in church-unless when responding in the mass)

Hope this is not to off topic. And if the baptists want to argue dispensationalism I would suggest they start a new thread to be set straight in. Since this one has been pretty well defended. The Catholic view of salvation is the only correct view. Period.

Hello defender,
Thanks for giving me the wikipedia link/definition of dispensationalism, and I assume by your comment, you consider it “junk”. Also thanks for the suggestion of starting another thread about that on this forum (I may do that because I am curious as to how you or other Catholics read the bible). Do Catholics attain a premillennial, postmillennial or amillennial view when reading the bible? Do you take most scripture literally or allagorically. A rule I use for bible interpretation is, when the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense. Therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning, unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages, and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. God, in revealing His word, neither intends nor permits the reader to be confused. He wants His children to understand. I believe that the way we read and our interpretation of scripture determines our theology, our differences and our similarities. Thanks for your comments,
God Bless you,
Benaiah

 

[ElizabethPH]

Amen to that brother!

Besides, the problem with Catholic theology on “future” sins is that they mistake their feelings for changes of legal standing. Legal terminology is used extensively, especially in Romans, and it makes clear that those who believe enter a right Legal standing with God. That said, sin after conversion will damage the relationship we have with God, but no matter how distant God may be, how trapped we are in our sin, no matter how many “mortal sins” we seem to have committed:

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38-39

Or, as recorded in John:

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” John 10:28-29

Remember Romans 8:29-30

“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

It is a chain of events that WILL happen, whether we want them to or not.

“It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” Romans 9:16

And no, foreknew does not refer to anyone other than the “elect,” those called to be Christians (and this is not everyone, I have never heard a biblical argument that could come close to proving we are all “called”)

That said, those who would try to make salvation a license to sin, Jude writes:

“For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality”
Jude 4a

Oh yeah, and I’m a good Baptist as well, thought I’d share that fun fact. I will, however, leave you with this thought:

"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Romans 1:16-17

consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

 

[mikeledes]

The OT and the NT are called by those names because Why? No OT soul was saved by Christ until Christ died on the Cross and spent three days preaching to those who died before our Lord Rose from the grave. He preached to them about the Gospel and thos who believed were saved.

NT saints are saved now, by believing on our Lord Jesus Christ and trusting on His finished work at the cross. No one was saved until our Lord came, died and rose from the grave. 1 John 5:7-11

You said:

** they believed in Him through the promises of God and the sacrificial system that foreshadowed/pointed to the Cross of Christ.**

As i have said, those who Jesus preached to while He was in the grave for three days, are those who died before our Lord died. Those who believed were saved, those who didn’t waite for the Judgment.

Were the OT people Born Again? Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Do you believe every word of Jesus?

So you don't believe in the Church age?

Explain to me how were Abel, Abraham, Rahab, David, etc. justified prior to the cross of Christ? Was their justification accomplished without the Cross?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[allischalmers]

There is only one way that we are saved, both catholics and baptist, and that is by the son of God Jesus Christ taking our sins (past, present, future) upon Himself and bore them upon the cross and died for us. This satisfied God the Father. This does not give us a excuse to sin, we are to shun sin. But we will sin and the Holy Spirit will convict us then we confess, and God is faithful an just to forgive us and cleanse us from unrightousness.

Amen and Amen

 

[mikeledes]

Amen to that brother!

Besides, the problem with Catholic theology on “future” sins is that they mistake their feelings for changes of legal standing. Legal terminology is used extensively, especially in Romans, and it makes clear that those who believe enter a right Legal standing with God. That said, sin after conversion will damage the relationship we have with God, but no matter how distant God may be, how trapped we are in our sin, no matter how many “mortal sins” we seem to have committed:

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38-39

I’m going to repost an old post. I would like to examine four verses, all of which touch on the issue of perseverance. I ask that they be read prayerfully and with care.

1 Corinthians 9:26

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Philippians 3:12-14

**12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. **

Hebrews 4:11

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Now the first verse is often explained away by claiming that it is merely talking about rewards, not salvation. However, this argument contradicts the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. Why? Because if Saint Paul had been disqualified, it would be because he failed to keep his body in subjection and that would mean he was overcome by sin. This reminds me of 2 Peter 2:20:

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

So if perseverance is a sign of election, then 1 Corinthian 9:26 cannot be about mere rewards. If a person failed to persevere and was disqualified and did not receive the crown, does that not also mean that the person will not be saved? Compare** Matthew 10:22**

"… But he who endures to the end will be saved."

with Revelation 2:10

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

and James 1:12

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

So if the crown is given to all those who persevere to the end, then does that not mean that is given to all those who are glorified? If this is so, then doesn’t diqualification from receiving the crown mean the same thing as disqualification from being glorified? Thus Paul can only be talking about disqualification from final salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:26. But if he were a Calvinist, would he cast such doubt on his own salvation? It seems that Calvinists are far more certain of their own salvation than Saint Paul.

 

[allischalmers]

Amen to that brother!

Besides, the problem with Catholic theology on “future” sins is that they mistake their feelings for changes of legal standing. Legal terminology is used extensively, especially in Romans, and it makes clear that those who believe enter a right Legal standing with God. That said, sin after conversion will damage the relationship we have with God, but no matter how distant God may be, how trapped we are in our sin, no matter how many “mortal sins” we seem to have committed:

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 8:38-39

Or, as recorded in John:

“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.” John 10:28-29

Remember Romans 8:29-30

“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

It is a chain of events that WILL happen, whether we want them to or not.

“It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.” Romans 9:16

And no, foreknew does not refer to anyone other than the “elect,” those called to be Christians (and this is not everyone, I have never heard a biblical argument that could come close to proving we are all “called”)

That said, those who would try to make salvation a license to sin, Jude writes:

“For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality”
Jude 4a

Oh yeah, and I’m a good Baptist as well, thought I’d share that fun fact. I will, however, leave you with this thought:

"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Romans 1:16-17

Amen

 

[mikeledes]

There is only one way that we are saved, both catholics and baptist, and that is by the son of God Jesus Christ taking our sins (past, present, future) upon Himself and bore them upon the cross and died for us. This satisfied God the Father. This does not give us a excuse to sin, we are to shun sin. But we will sin and the Holy Spirit will convict us then we confess, and God is faithful an just to forgive us and cleanse us from unrightousness.

Let’s look at another couple of verses that talk about loss of salvation:

Romans 14:15, 20

15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense.

Compare that with 1 Corinthians 8:9-10

9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

The work of God destroyed? A brother for whom Christ dies perishing? That certainly coontradicts OSAS.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[allischalmers]

I’m going to repost an old post. I would like to examine four verses, all of which touch on the issue of perseverance. I ask that they be read prayerfully and with care.

1 Corinthians 9:26

26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Philippians 3:12-14

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 4:11

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Now the first verse is often explained away by claiming that it is merely talking about rewards, not salvation. However, this argument contradicts the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. Why? Because if Saint Paul had been disqualified, it would be because he failed to keep his body in subjection and that would mean he was overcome by sin. This reminds me of 2 Peter 2:20:

**20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world **through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

So if perseverance is a sign of election, then 1 Corinthian 9:26 cannot be about mere rewards. If a person failed to persevere and was disqualified and did not receive the crown, does that not also mean that the person will not be saved? Compare** Matthew 10:22**

"… But he who endures to the end will be saved."

with Revelation 2:10

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

and James 1:12

12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

So if the crown is given to all those who persevere to the end, then does that not mean that is given to all those who are glorified? If this is so, then doesn’t diqualification from receiving the crown mean the same thing as disqualification from being glorified? Thus Paul can only be talking about disqualification from final salvation in 1 Corinthians 9:26. But if he were a Calvinist, would he cast such doubt on his own salvation? ** It seems that Calvinists are far more certain of their own salvation than Saint Paul.**

If Calvinist are more certained for their own salvation why are Calvinists churches spending millions of dollars every year to send missionarys all over the world?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

allischalmers:
If Calvinist are more certained for their own salvation why are Calvinists churches spending millions of dollars every year to send missionarys all over the world?Well golly-gee, somebody’s gotta go “save” those Catholics.

 

[mikeledes]

allischalmers:
If Calvinist are more certained for their own salvation why are Calvinists churches spending millions of dollars every year to send missionarys all over the world?

How does this answer my post? Mormons and JWs have hundreds of dedicated missionaries spreading their teachings throughout the world.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

A work that has to do with faith is the fruit of the spirit as in Galatians 5:22-23. This is what is meant by faith and works.

Catholic believe that works pleasing to God must be done in a state of grace, rooted in faith, and done out of love of God and neighbor, and this love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. So your definition is not very different from the Catholic one.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

If what Paul said in this verse could not happen, then he would be using a lie as a scare tactic.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Philthy]

There is only one way that we are saved, both catholics and baptist, and that is by the son of God Jesus Christ taking our sins (past, present, future) upon Himself and bore them upon the cross and died for us. This satisfied God the Father. .

.
Yes and No - Christ died for the sins of all, but not all are saved, and all are not righteous in God’s sight.

lyle:

This does not give us a excuse to sin, we are to shun sin.

The ability to choose not to sin is also part of the work of Christ’s cross.

lyle:

But we will sin and the Holy Spirit will convict us then we confess, and God is faithful an just to forgive us and cleanse us from unrightousness.

Yes indeed - sinning can make us unrighteous before God and requires us confessing those sins to cleanse us from unrighteousness. Sounding Catholic to me!