Split: Another Marian Debate

[julebenn]

Holy Mary, pray for us.
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of virgins,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of the Church,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother most admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Savior,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Mirror of justice,
Seat of wisdom,
Cause of our joy,
Spiritual vessel,
Vessel of honor,
Singular vessel of devotion,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower of ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comforter of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of angels,
Queen of patriarchs,
Queen of prophets,
Queen of apostles,
Queen of martyrs,
Queen of confessors,
Queen of virgins,
Queen of all saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of the most holy Rosary,
Queen of families
Queen of peace.

I think its just fine that she calls her Blessed Mother. Ask her why she does.
Let us know.

WOW! Last I checked th Bible was about the Lord Jesus Christ and we should be wholeheartedly devoted to Him.

perpetual virginity Immaculate Conception, the Assumption to heaven, and the titles Queen of Heaven, mediatrix, our mother, our life, our hope and others are conspicuously absent from the Bible.

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (John 5:39).

Mary will always be blessed by every generation. However, we must not assign to her a role that God did not give her.

 

[contemplative]

and she calls Mary the Blessed Mother. Is this ok?

yes

I recently found this bit of information from one of Scott Hahn’s books.

Matthew seems to flout the rules by listing women in Jesus’ genealogy; but he is actually doing some thing clever: a preemptive apologetic strike. By placing women—pagan women, and pagan women of shady reputation—among Jesus’ ancestors, Matthew effectively undercuts the arguments of anyone who would question Jesus’ messianic credential. For surely the evangelist knew that the claim of Jesus’ virginal conception would evoke wry smiles from skeptics. (And it certainly did. Jesus is called a bastard in several places in the Talmud, and the title “Son of Mary” itself was probably a slur. The Jewish custom was to call a man “son of” his father. Only a fatherless man would be called “son of” his mother.) Yet Matthew almost dares his fellow Jewish readers to raise questions about Jesus’ ancestry. Because if Jews derided Jesus as “son of Mary,” then King Solomon, the prototypical son of David, would lose four times over. For Solomon shared those same female ancestors with Jesus—and the last of them, Bathsheba, was Solomon’s own mother.

Matthew is safeguarding Jesus’ messianic credentials….

Taken from Hail, Holy Queen by Scott Hahn

 

[San_Patricio]

perpetual virginity Immaculate Conception, the Assumption to heaven, and the titles Queen of Heaven, mediatrix, our mother, our life, our hope and others are conspicuously absent from the Bible.

If you take the whole Bible it’s pretty much all there. Of course if you just pick a verse here and there to prove your point, you’re bound to miss something along the way.

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (John 5:39).

I wonder what Scripture He was speaking of there, since the one you just quoted obviously wasn’t written until after He said it…

Mary will always be blessed by every generation. However, we must not assign to her a role that God did not give her.

I agree. And I don’t believe I do.
What role do you believe He gave her?

 

[dafalax]

WOW! Last I checked th Bible was about the Lord Jesus Christ and we should be wholeheartedly devoted to Him.

perpetual virginity Immaculate Conception, the Assumption to heaven, and the titles Queen of Heaven, mediatrix, our mother, our life, our hope and others are conspicuously absent from the Bible.

“Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (John 5:39).

Mary will always be blessed by every generation. However, we must not assign to her a role that God did not give her.

Umm, God did assign her the role of Queen of Heaven and earth. Why don’t you explain to Him why His greatest work should be ignored instead of honored?
We get closer to God by learning about Him, as in sacred scripture, but also by seeing what he does through His creations. To ignore how He works in the lives of humanity is to ignore a huge part of Him.
Furthermore, after preserving Mary from original sin, he gave her the grace and strength to always choose Him so that she could be a worthy vessel to bring Christ to the rest of the world. If you think she could have just been any average “good person”, you should reread Exodus, in particular the tedious specifications God gave Moses for building the tent where God was to dwell. We not only read the exact instructions for this tent and the finery to be used in it’s construction, but then these instructions are repeated verbatim as Moses builds the tent. This is to drive home how important it was to have such a place for God to dwell. A woman who was to carry God made man would have to be the equivalent of purity (the place was purified with incense and holocausts) and greatness.
When you tear down Jesus’ mother instead of honoring her, you take away from His greatness. God gives us all grace to choose Him. Only in Mary did He succeed in having one of His creations (who was only mortal, not mortal and divine) live a life as He intended. If you don’t think God would reward that, you don’t think much of our Heavenly Father. Of all the trillions of lives that have existed since God created man, Mary is the only one who lived perfectly as God intended. Give credit where credit is due. It is only by acknowledging ALL of God’s greatness, through His creations and otherwise, that you can be fully appreciate His power and glory.
God bless you and may your eyes one day be opened all the way to the Lord.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well Julebenn, personally I can’t imagine being “devoted” to Jesus while ignoring His mother. And really, how indeed do you call her “blessed”? It sounds to me like you really don’t understand what “blessed” means. Like you really don’t understand what Mary’s part–the part given to her by God Himself was and is.

Like you really don’t understand that Mary was not just “somebody” who bore Jesus once, and is then to be ‘ignored’ because somehow unless she is ‘totally ignored’ then your focus isn’t ‘completely on Jesus.’

For some 1500 years, Christians had no problems understanding that honor (not worship, but honor. . .two very different things, in that one only worships one’s Creator, but can honor one’s fellow creatures) due to Mary–honor which God Himself in His inspired Scriptures tells us is due her, because “He who is mighty has done great things for me”–did not then, does not now, and will not ever “take away from God.” In fact, honoring Mary increases one’s focus on God, and increases the worship that we give to God.

Sadly, too many good Christians today have fallen into many, grievous errors, mostly traced back to that great period of apostacy and to the prideful wish to be their ‘own’ arbiters of what is truth, and to be disobedient to those whom they saw as ‘unfairly’ put ‘above’ others. Egalitarisianism ran rampant and unchecked, but it was a false, Cromwellian “I’m as good as the next man, by gad” rather than a true “we are neither Greek nor Jew, male or female, slave or free, but in Christ Jesus”.

For if we were truly humble and truly seeking God, we would not be disobedient, prideful, exclusionary, filled with false notions of ourselves and our faith, and making God into ‘our image and likeness’ instead of the other way around. We would be searching not for how to ‘get around’ what Christian teaching is, or to make it ‘more relevant’, and certainly not to make it both more narrow (confined to one authority) and more broad (having one group say that the Bible says A, another that it certainly does NOT say A but says B, and more and more arguing for everything from C to the square root of 53).

In other words, we would be back in the one, true, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

 

[julebenn]

I agree. And I don’t believe I do.
What role do you believe He gave her?

The incarnation of Jesus and the redemption was not dependent on human will (MARY) but on Gods the Farther plan. God prepared willing servents like Mary for his good, but he also prepared reluctant ones, like Zechariah, and even evil and wicked ones like Pilate and Annas, to achieve His eternal purpose.

He Himself had predestined Mary for that very purpose, that she should willingly be the mother of the Lord according to the flesh.

She is not the savior; only Jesus is. She is not the mediator; only Jesus is (please read 1 Timothy 2:5).

 

[julebenn]

Umm, God did assign her the role of Queen of Heaven and earth. Why don’t you explain to Him why His greatest work should be ignored instead of honored?
We get closer to God by learning about Him, as in sacred scripture, but also by seeing what he does through His creations. To ignore how He works in the lives of humanity is to ignore a huge part of Him.
Furthermore, after preserving Mary from original sin, he gave her the grace and strength to always choose Him so that she could be a worthy vessel to bring Christ to the rest of the world. If you think she could have just been any average “good person”, you should reread Exodus, in particular the tedious specifications God gave Moses for building the tent where God was to dwell. We not only read the exact instructions for this tent and the finery to be used in it’s construction, but then these instructions are repeated verbatim as Moses builds the tent. This is to drive home how important it was to have such a place for God to dwell. A woman who was to carry God made man would have to be the equivalent of purity (the place was purified with incense and holocausts) and greatness.
When you tear down Jesus’ mother instead of honoring her, you take away from His greatness. God gives us all grace to choose Him. Only in Mary did He succeed in having one of His creations (who was only mortal, not mortal and divine) live a life as He intended. If you don’t think God would reward that, you don’t think much of our Heavenly Father. Of all the trillions of lives that have existed since God created man, Mary is the only one who lived perfectly as God intended. Give credit where credit is due. It is only by acknowledging ALL of God’s greatness, through His creations and otherwise, that you can be fully appreciate His power and glory.
God bless you and may your eyes one day be opened all the way to the Lord.

I’m not going to follow human tradition, God’s Word is what I choose.

Who is our help and our salvation: “Help me, O LORD my God: O save me according to thy mercy” (Psalm 109:26).

 

[julebenn]

Well Julebenn, personally I can’t imagine being “devoted” to Jesus while ignoring His mother. And really, how indeed do you call her “blessed”? It sounds to me like you really don’t understand what “blessed” means. Like you really don’t understand what Mary’s part–the part given to her by God Himself was and is.

Like you really don’t understand that Mary was not just “somebody” who bore Jesus once, and is then to be ‘ignored’ because somehow unless she is ‘totally ignored’ then your focus isn’t ‘completely on Jesus.’

For some 1500 years, Christians had no problems understanding that honor (not worship, but honor. . .two very different things, in that one only worships one’s Creator, but can honor one’s fellow creatures) due to Mary–honor which God Himself in His inspired Scriptures tells us is due her, because “He who is mighty has done great things for me”–did not then, does not now, and will not ever “take away from God.” In fact, honoring Mary increases one’s focus on God, and increases the worship that we give to God.

Sadly, too many good Christians today have fallen into many, grievous errors, mostly traced back to that great period of apostacy and to the prideful wish to be their ‘own’ arbiters of what is truth, and to be disobedient to those whom they saw as ‘unfairly’ put ‘above’ others. Egalitarisianism ran rampant and unchecked, but it was a false, Cromwellian “I’m as good as the next man, by gad” rather than a true “we are neither Greek nor Jew, male or female, slave or free, but in Christ Jesus”.

For if we were truly humble and truly seeking God, we would not be disobedient, prideful, exclusionary, filled with false notions of ourselves and our faith, and making God into ‘our image and likeness’ instead of the other way around. We would be searching not for how to ‘get around’ what Christian teaching is, or to make it ‘more relevant’, and certainly not to make it both more narrow (confined to one authority) and more broad (having one group say that the Bible says A, another that it certainly does NOT say A but says B, and more and more arguing for everything from C to the square root of 53).

In other words, we would be back in the one, true, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

I see you are aware that we should not worship any creature, not even the blessed Mary.

Mary is not the saviour herself. Indeed she needed the Lord to save her, like every other human being since Adam and to the end of the world. She herself acknowledges God as “my saviour” (Luke 1:47).

I do call her blessed, She is forever to be called blessed.

I don’t pray to her, the Bible clearly teaches us that we should pray to God and that God alone knows our hearts (1 Kings 8:39)

I don’t ask for grace from her, he Bible teaches us that all grace comes from God (1 Peter 5:10)

I don’t call her " my life" and “our hope” the Bible teaches us that the Lord is our life and hope (Colossians 3:4; 1 Timothy 1:1)

She is not my mediator, the Bible says that there is one mediator, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5)

I will not trust her in my hour of death, Jesus the Good Shepherd is able to keep His sheep and bring them safely to glory (John 10:27,28)

Many Catholic attitudes owards Mary amounts to worship

1. they pray to he
2. neel before her image
3. trust in her for salvation
4. attribute to her titles and honours which belong to God alone

 

[Damascus]

I am completely offended by the comments you have made here Juleben, I am just going to calm down a bit as I re- read all of your insulting remarks that insinuate I dont put Jesus first or read the bible

GRRRRR

Then I will attempt to see what others have said and try to respond. Frankly, your lack of Charity is making it hard to.

I will ask Mary to help me.

 

[julebenn]

I am completely offended by the comments you have made here Juleben, I am just going to calm down a bit as I re- read all of your insulting remarks that insinuate I dont put Jesus first or read the bible

GRRRRR

Then I will attempt to see what others have said and try to respond. Frankly, your lack of Charity is making it hard to.

I will ask Mary to help me.

No offense intended, I’m just writing what I believe to be true.

What do you find so offensive?

 

[contemplative]

No offense intended, I’m just writing what I believe to be true.

What do you find so offensive?

You would greatly benefit from reading Scott Hahn’s Hail Holy Queen.

After this I would hope that you stick to the subject of the thread instead of blowing insults to the Blessed Virgin Mother around. The OP wants to know if reference to Mary as the Blessed Mother is an insult from a Jewish person.

 

[dafalax]

I’m not going to follow human tradition, God’s Word is what I choose.

Who is our help and our salvation: “Help me, O LORD my God: O save me according to thy mercy” (Psalm 109:26).

That is the biggest cop out i’ve ever read. You didn’t respond to why Mary could be average when the tent God dwelt in with Moses had to be so great, so pure. It’s a simple Bible argument. Why dismiss it? I feel like you didn’t even read it. Are you here to understand or to persist in ignorance?
Also, we ask for Mary’s prayers, we don’t expect her to save us by her own powers. Her prayers are powerful before the Lord because He loves His mother, who led such a holy life. She will not ask anything against His will.
I don’t know when i’ve seen someone kneel before a Mary statue, and i’m Catholic. I kneel at mass, and i kneel before the crucifix at adoration. We kneel in prayer. If we kneel before a saint statue to pray, it is because we are in prayer, not because we think there’s a god in the statue who needs homage paid.
We also don’t rely on Mary for our salvation. Jesus died for us. We know, however, that because her life was led in perfect imitation of her Saviour, that she is to be modeled. She was fully human and only human and she achieved what God wants all humans to achieve.
Also, regarding your brilliant statement that you follow traditions of God and not men, do you put up a Christmas tree? That’s not in the Bible, sinner.
If you have anything other than ignorant lies to say, by all means, enlighten me. When you tell us what we believe and it’s all b.s., however, don’t expect us to listen. We know what we believe, and if you didn’t come to these forums to get a clearer understanding of that, then leave. You sow only disharmony.

 

[dafalax]

No offense intended, I’m just writing what I believe to be true.

What do you find so offensive?

The fact that you tell lies about the honor we give Mary. Kneeling before a statue to pray doesn’t mean you worship the statue. It means you’re praying. I kneel before the crucifix to pray also. I know Jesus isn’t in that piece of plastic on my wall.
Why wouldn’t i be offended when you misunderstand our faith and tell us it’s wrong instead of trying to understand what we really believe and then using an apologetical argument? You show no respect. You are nothing but ignorant and malicious. And if you don’t call the Blessed mother ‘blessed’ you are ignoring the Bible your hand should be about tired of thumping.

 

[Damascus]

Julebenn,

So I dont have to re-type the Scriptural references I posted about Mary check the Arc of the Covenant thread in the non-catholic section of the forums. There are exellent posts there by Allegra Fe also you should pay attention to.

OP- your friend is a blessing and hopefully she will see your Love for Mary and devotion to her as an inspiration to her. Share with her how you feel about Mary, and the peace she brings you.
If you dont know what to say about Mary, send her up a quick prayer to be with you and she will. Sometimes words are not even needed. You can show her a smile when she says her name. You can show her in your eyes the love you have for Mary. She will see it.

Bless you for asking about this.

 

[George_Craft]

Hi everyone,

I’d like to add another thought to this thread if I may please.

Let’s use Scripture to make the point so it can not be ignored as a man-made idea:

Exo 3:5 And he said: Come not nigh hither, put off the shoes from thy feet; for the place, whereon thou standest, is holy ground.

Exo 28:43 And Aaron and his sons shall use them when they shall go into the tabernacle of the testimony, or when they approach to the altar to minister in the sanctuary. lest being guilty of iniquity they die. It shall be a law for ever to Aaron, and to his seed after him.

Heb 9:11 But Christ, being come an high Priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hand, that is, not of this creation:

Where God resides is ALWAYS considered Holy. Moses couldn’t approach on God’s mountain without removing his shoes, people couldn’t approach the first Tabernacle without dying unless blessed and ordained by God to be free from iniquity.

I would ask, how Holy was Mary while she was carrying the Lord God Almighty in her womb? Where in the entire universe was there a holier place than Mary’s womb?

With love,
George

 

[Mattgkarl]

I don’t pray to her, the Bible clearly teaches us that we should pray to God and that God alone knows our hearts (1 Kings 8:39)

I don’t ask for grace from her, he Bible teaches us that all grace comes from God (1 Peter 5:10)

2COR 1:11 as you help us with prayer, so that thanks may be given by many on our behalf for the gift granted us through the prayers of many.

RV 8:4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

1. they pray to he[r] True and to the holy ones and Julebenn please pray for me, likewise
2. [k]neel before her image, when kneeling is accomplished it is before something.
3. trust in her for salvation, not quite right, but she is the Mother of Salvation.
4. attribute to her titles and honours which belong to God alone 1:35 And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God…
   If Jesus is God and He is (Lk1:43) then Mary must be quid pro quo the Mother of God. For the Immaculate Conception refer to two passages one in Genesis, 3:15 I will put **enmity **between you(read preceding verse for this identification) and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.” and another in Timothy, 1TM 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is **the church **of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. I wonder if the Chapter and Verse Number equalities are more than coincidental. All emphasis is mine and used for emphasis

BTW; The Nativity Story is worthy of your time and talents. Access its Website and view the trailer, “Mary comes home.” It is the beginning of a scene while not strictly Biblical that must have happened. Although, Mt 1:18-19 is a reference. I hope not many have been in Joseph’s sandals.

 

[Damascus]

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel” (Gen. 3:15).
The serpent is Satan (cf. Jn. 8:44; Rev. 12:9), and the “seed of the woman” who would be sent to crush the devil is Jesus Christ. Therefore, the “woman” is Mary, His mother. It is significant that Jesus addresses His mother in the Gospels as “woman” (e.g., John 2:4; 19:26-27). Mary shares in the victory of her Son over Satan, which includes His victory over sin and death. Because she is sinless and pure, there is indeed “enmity” (Gen. 3:15) or “complete opposition” between Mary and Satan.
At the Annunciation, Saint Gabriel the Archangel greets Mary with the words, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Lk. 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word **kecharitoméne. **This word conveys a sense of completion and perfection that was already present at the time of the Annunciation. Mary’s holiness was not only as complete as possible, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward.

 

[Damascus]

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel” (Gen. 3:15).
The serpent is Satan (cf. Jn. 8:44; Rev. 12:9), and the “seed of the woman” who would be sent to crush the devil is Jesus Christ. Therefore, the “woman” is Mary, His mother. It is significant that Jesus addresses His mother in the Gospels as “woman” (e.g., John 2:4; 19:26-27). Mary shares in the victory of her Son over Satan, which includes His victory over sin and death. Because she is sinless and pure, there is indeed “enmity” (Gen. 3:15) or “complete opposition” between Mary and Satan.
At the Annunciation, Saint Gabriel the Archangel greets Mary with the words, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Lk. 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word **kecharitoméne. **This word conveys a sense of completion and perfection that was already present at the time of the Annunciation. Mary’s holiness was not only as complete as possible, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward.

 

[TOP]

How full is “full of grace”?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Many Catholic attitudes owards Mary amounts to worship

1. they pray to he
2. neel before her image
3. trust in her for salvation
4. attribute to her titles and honours which belong to God alone

1. Your idea of “prayer” , Julebene, changes it into a relatively new (less than 500 year old 'interpretation) from its original use, which means, quite simply, to ask. Luckily, God does not change HIS definition.

The Bible itself tells us that prayers could be offered not simply ‘to God’ but for ourselves and for others. It’s actually almost amusing that those descended from “protestant” traditions stand so firmly on defining prayer as SOLELY addressing God, in attempting to “discredit Mary and the saints”, when their own founders had exactly that “Catholic” devotion to Mary.

1. So, you find 'kneeling before an image" to be an act of worship rather than of honor? Well, I guess I hope that you never meet the Queen of England say, because I guess you’d find all those people who knelt in the presence of kings and queens to be idolators worshipping those kings and queens, instead of demonstrating respect. Again, that ties back to some of my posts in which I decry the FALSE “egalitarianism” which attempts to make all peoples not just equal in their ‘soul’ (though not equal at all in their capacities), but also ‘equal’ in every other aspect. People are not interchangeable pawns. There are, and always will be, people who are of greater ‘worth’ when it comes to both carnal and spiritual items. You may be the type of anarchist who would rather spit on a queen than curtesy or kneel, which would at least make you a true egalitarian. However, I feel that most likely you acknowledge in some way or another a pastor, a sports figure, a writer, or even have a vague preference for Paul over Peter. . .so you really don’t in your heart of hearts think that “all” people are exactly the same.
2. Trust in her for salvation? I think you’re confused. There is only ONE in whose name we are given Salvation, and that is Christ. We ask Mary for her prayers FOR us, TO Christ, trusting in both “the prayer of a righteous person availeth much”, and that as the Mother of God, whose will was always expressed in “I am the handmaid of the Lord. Be it done unto me according to Thy will”, her prayers will always be in perfect agreement and accordance with God’s will, so that He will be delighted in hearing them. We can trust that Mary, if we seek her in the right way, which is as the Mother who constantly leads us to Christ, will (because we are searching for Christ) indeed lead us to the Christ who is our salvation.
3. No title is given Mary which is God’s alone; such would be heresy. She is not God; she is not Divine.
   In years past, writers such as Shakespeare used language differently than writers such as Chaucer and Dante, who in turn used language differently from the Venerable Bede, who used language differently from St. Jerome and St. Augustine, who used language differently from Virgil and Ovid, who used language differently from Plato and Socrates. . .

Why, the King James Bible uses a more ‘flowery’ type of language than a contemporary Bible.

Uses of words like ‘divine’ do not necessarily mean that a person is considered God, but instead to be simply ‘godly’. Why, even today we speak of a singer’s “divine voice” but we aren’t setting her up as a goddess now are we? Why, the Bible tells us that we will be like gods ourselves. . .how presumptive! Aren’t we taking titles away from God that should be HIS ALONE?